RPSI and Standardbred mares

[JB]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8336357]
Interesting. I have a 4 YO DHH x hackney/clyde that is pretty fancy. Uphill and a nice mover. Who would have thought from that breeding![/QUOTE]
It actually doesn’t surprise me at all Clydedales seem to be pretty good at producing nice F1 crosses, assuming the Clyde individual is well put together (which should go without saying but just clarifying). A Hackney x Clyde is actually a “known” cross - the Commercial Horse. Granted, this was long ago, but the Hackney has origins with the Norfolk Trotter which is also one of the founding breeds of the Selle Francais

There’s a relatively big farm in Canada, Ontario I think? who breeds Commercial Horses. They do typically tend to have a lot of knee and hock action (duh) but actually seem to jump quite well, and I’ve run across several doing fairly high level Dressage, including Intermediate. It makes me wonder if there are any doing any higher levels and listed as “unknown breeding” lol

So add to that the DHH blood, which is not all bred for extremely high stepping harness movement, and you could well end up with a nice mover

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8336580]
Yes, her pedigree as showing in HorseTelex.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/226403

Oberst was a “German trotter” born near Frankfurt, Germany in the early 1900’s. That does not make him a Standardbred.

And while the HorseTelex site cannot be relied on 100%, it was an interesting experiment to see if Halla had been used for breeding, and what her descendants were doing. It looks like she produced only one foal, a daughter who in turn produced only one foal - a daughter. And that one produced one foal, a 1990 gelding. Her line seems to end there, so it appears she was not a particularly successful producer of top of class sport horse talent, or there would be more descendants reflected in HorseTelex.[/QUOTE]
Thank you DownYonder.

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=JB;8336622]
It actually doesn’t surprise me at all Clydedales seem to be pretty good at producing nice F1 crosses, assuming the Clyde individual is well put together (which should go without saying but just clarifying). A Hackney x Clyde is actually a “known” cross - the Commercial Horse. Granted, this was long ago, but the Hackney has origins with the Norfolk Trotter which is also one of the founding breeds of the Selle Francais

There’s a relatively big farm in Canada, Ontario I think? who breeds Commercial Horses. They do typically tend to have a lot of knee and hock action (duh) but actually seem to jump quite well, and I’ve run across several doing fairly high level Dressage, including Intermediate. It makes me wonder if there are any doing any higher levels and listed as “unknown breeding” lol

So add to that the DHH blood, which is not all bred for extremely high stepping harness movement, and you could well end up with a nice mover :)[/QUOTE]

Thanks JB. He was imported from Canada but I don’t know who his breeder was. He is just starting to jump but so far he has taken to it like a duck to water. I think my dressage trainer and my event trainer are going to be fighting over him :).

[Ibex]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8336699]
Thanks JB. He was imported from Canada but I don’t know who his breeder was. He is just starting to jump but so far he has taken to it like a duck to water. I think my dressage trainer and my event trainer are going to be fighting over him :).[/QUOTE]

There’s a good chance the Hackney/Clyde side was from Shady Maple farm. These are super cool horses to see in action either in harness or under saddle, but they are quite “drafty”. I can see where the DHH probably brought some refinement?

[D_BaldStockings]

This popular sire has a lovely shoulder and hip, and short loin.
http://www.hanoverpa.com/stallions/andover-hall.aspx

I’m sure a few of his daughters have the same traits.

Most of the French trotters in the Selle Francais breed trace to US trotters AKA Standardbreds, including Viti, dam of Galoubet.

I realize that as breeders it is important to promote the bloodlines of your program, but does that give one license to dismiss other programs out of hand?

I do agree that a purebred Standardbred would not have the flashy gaits useful for top level dressage competition.

There are other Sport divisions where they might be useful due to their steady minds and tough constitution and soundness: something a few European registries seem to be addressing in their own ranks.

As a producer of ‘market’ geldings for mid-level adult ammy sport in jumping, eventing or yes, dressage: those smooth to ride, ground covering trots and sensible temperaments could be a distinct selling point.

Note that this is not my breed of choice, but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate them for what they offer.

[cloudyandcallie]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8336580]
Yes, her pedigree as showing in HorseTelex.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/226403

Oberst was a “German trotter” born near Frankfurt, Germany in the early 1900’s. That does not make him a Standardbred.

And while the HorseTelex site cannot be relied on 100%, it was an interesting experiment to see if Halla had been used for breeding, and what her descendants were doing. It looks like she produced only one foal, a daughter who in turn produced only one foal - a daughter. And that one produced one foal, a 1990 gelding. Her line seems to end there, so it appears she was not a particularly successful producer of top of class sport horse talent, or there would be more descendants reflected in HorseTelex.[/QUOTE]

Halla was graded and admitted into the Hessen registry. (Which merged in 2010 with the hannoverian registry.) (I have a hessen, so I pretty much have kept up with horses graded into that registry before the merger.)
So Halla is a good example of how a crossbred horse who wins becomes a member of a german horse registry. In Halla’s case, the Hessen registry.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;8338636]
Halla was graded and admitted into the Hessen registry. (Which merged in 2010 with the hannoverian registry.) (I have a hessen, so I pretty much have kept up with horses graded into that registry before the merger.)
So Halla is a good example of how a crossbred horse who wins becomes a member of a german horse registry. In Halla’s case, the Hessen registry.[/QUOTE]
Some other registries, like Hannover or Holstein would have never accepted her by the way…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8336445]
Hmm it is very new to me that Halla (second link about the jumpers) was a 1/2 standardbred.
In German sources, you find that she was out of a french mare (with unknown ancestors) and her father was the trotter Oberst… So not sure where the Standardbred comes from…[/QUOTE]

Oberst was a Standardbred AKA US Trotter born in Germany.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=20458

Both his sire and dam were USA born Standardbreds; he is linebred to the great sire Axworthy. (dam at least was born in Germany of Standardbred parents see later post)

But it would make sense that ‘he isn’t Standardbred’ according to European WB registry labeling by country (county) of birth, not necessarily ancestry.

[D_BaldStockings]

General Watts notes:
"Back in the year 1907, a memorable advance was made in three-year-old speed when General Watts lowered the record for that age from 2:08¾ to 2:06¾.

The former mark had stood for no less than fourteen years, having been posted back in 1893 by Fantasy. So long a period had since elapsed that horsemen had gotten into the habit of believing that the flying daughter of Chimes would never be surpassed-at least not in their day. Season after season came and went and not only was her record unbeaten-it was unapproached. It seemed difficult for a three-year-old to go even in 2:10 or better-in fact, during the entire 14-year period under survey, only three had done so, these being Grace Bond 2:08¼, Susie N. 2:09¼ and Miss Adbell 2:09¾.

In consequence, when General Watts cut two whole seconds from Fantasy’s record, “at one full swoop,” it created a tremendous sensation. He also trotted a public quarter that fall at Lexington in :28¾, which was far and away the most extreme rate of speed that a three-year-old had ever displayed up to that date.

In consequence he was hailed as a phenomenon-a colt as far ahead of his time as Fantasy had been ahead of hers. It was the declared opinion of many horsemen that General Watts had set a mark that would never be beaten, but would stand for all time!

However, in an article written for the Christmas Horse Review of that year, the late Joseph I. Markey (“Marque”) took up the subject of extreme early speed and its possibilities and in doing so did what, according to about 99 out of every hundred of his readers, threw his reputation as a critic to the winds. For Joe did nothing less than declare that General Watts’ mile in 2:06¾ was far indeed from marking the limit of three-year-old speed-that not only would it soon be beaten but that he would live to see the 2:00 three-year-old!"

http://www.mi-harness.net/publct/hh/evlspdhrv.html

[D_BaldStockings]

Oakland Baron is advertised on page 403 along with Axworthy.
https://books.google.com/books?id=5a0QAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=oakland+baron+standardbred+stallion&source=bl&ots=GwJIN0WQ6s&sig=KXD7XthlUbiK08K2ufgehXNn9kg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBWoVChMItbSikL-fyAIVVVyICh1ZZAhT#v=onepage&q=oakland%20baron&f=false

Oakland Baron was also a winner of breeding classes held at horse shows for roadsters and trotters.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8338836]
Some other registries, like Hannover or Holstein would have never accepted her by the way…[/QUOTE]

The point is she performed. True, she didn’t produce well.

She didn’t need to be in a specific registry to perform and beat the world’s best though, did she.

[D_BaldStockings]

Morganwend
https://archive.org/stream/breedersportsma651914sanf/breedersportsma651914sanf_djvu.txt

"The German Trotting Derby, the premier annual
trotting classic of Kaiser Wilhelm’s empire, was con-
tested at the Berlin-Ruhleben course on Sunday, June
21st, and resulted, as the “talent” had foreseen, in
an easy victory for Morganwind, the all-winter favor-
ite for the event, with his stable companion, Bertha
Prince, just as easy a second. The colt and filly
both belong to the Klausner stable, which has had
wonderful success in the Derby, having previously
won it in 1906 with Fidelio; in 1907 with Spinalmont;
in 1909 with Gluecksstern; In 1911 with Paprika, and
in 1913 with Adbell Toddington. The last-named colt
and Morganwind are both out of the same mare,
Delia Bell, 2, 2:27%, by Adbell, 1, 2:23, and both
were bred in America, Delia Bell having been ex-
ported to Germany with Adbell Toddington, by Tod-
dington 2:20, at her foot, and in foal to Morgan Ax-
worthy 2:17. The driver of Morganwind in the Der-
by was R. Grossman, who has also won the other
Derbies noted as to the credit of the Klausner stable.
… "

So Morganwend was foaled n Germany.

[D_BaldStockings]

http://www.ponybox.com/news_details.php?id=213

"…Halla remains even today as the horse with the most Olympic gold medals.

Halla lived to the ripe old age of 34, before she passed away in 1979. She is honored in Germany with several streets named after her, and a life size bronze statue at the German National Stud, and Breyer made a model horse of her in the 1970s. The German Studbook even retired her name – no horse can be registered in Germany with her name, because there will only ever be one Halla."

I’ll take a ‘fluke’ like her any day.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8338836]
Some other registries, like Hannover or Holstein would have never accepted her by the way…[/QUOTE]

She was born 1945 in Darmstadt, Hesse: therefore registered in the Hessen registry.

Surely I don’t need to say anything about the Holsteiner and Hanoverian verbands in WWII and their reorienting to Sport breeding with the heavy influx of Tb in the 50’s and 60’s.

[cloudyandcallie]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8338836]
Some other registries, like Hannover or Holstein would have never accepted her by the way…[/QUOTE]

She had to be presented and evaluated. Not every horse born in Hessen state could be branded Hessen. The Germans do not allow everyone to join a registry.

Of course the other registries are so much more selective.:lol: Not every gold medalist at the Olympics can be an Oldenburg. For example, one grey french 1/2 french TB 1/2 Arabian was bought by the burgermeister of Oldenburg and graded into the Oldenburg stud. Sure he was an exceptional dressage horse, but then Inschallah was the maternal great-grandsire of my Hessen. :lol::lol: Who btw, won his keuring when he was 8 months old.
And then there was the pinto jumper/dressage horse who became a Dutch warm blood. He was my Hessen’s paternal grandsire. Samber.
The registries in Germany take in the best performance horses. And they also grade the horses born in their districts (well the hannoverians are not limited by region) and determine whether or not those horses can be admitted into the registry. Like when the Hessens merged with the hannoverians in 2010. Entry was not automatic.
I’d take a multiple olympic gold medalist like Halla over some cross bred oldenburg without a performance record any day. Even though my horse is 20% Inschallah descended.

[Manni01]

Well I am sure you are totally right and perfectly informed, but in Holstein as well as in Hannover there were/are some specific rules about the ancestors of the horse to be registered. I think both registries changed it in the last couple of years, but until then it did not matter how sucessful a horse performed, if it did not have the right ancestors they would not register it.
Westphalen, Hessen and Oldenburg had different rules. In Oldenburg they honored performance, in Westfalen you had to pay for it and in Hessen I dont know. So I am not sure why you dont agree with me.

[D_BaldStockings]

I am not sure why it matters that a Hessen isn’t in the Holsteiner or Hanoverian registry.

One birth registry per horse, approval of offspring possible in others, right?

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8339283]
Well I am sure you are totally right and perfectly informed, but in Holstein as well as in Hannover there were/are some specific rules about the ancestors of the horse to be registered. I think both registries changed it in the last couple of years, but until then it did not matter how sucessful a horse performed, if it did not have the right ancestors they would not register it.
Westphalen, Hessen and Oldenburg had different rules. In Oldenburg they honored performance, in Westfalen you had to pay for it and in Hessen I dont know. So I am not sure why you dont agree with me.[/QUOTE]

What about the lower books and the ‘every horse must be identified’ rule in Germany? I thought every horse born in a province had to have some sort of COP or identification linked to that province. This has nothing to do with breeding approval in the upper level books, but those horses must ‘go’ somewhere.

Horses without the ‘right’ ancestors aren’t approved for breeding. Yet there are many horses with ‘other registry’ sires approved for breeding within say the Hannoverian register, and the Oldenburg register, too.

If a mare moves to a different province, aren’t her foals inspected and registered in that provinces registry most of the time?

[D_BaldStockings]

An Oldenburg mare pedigree.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/525872

One (tail female) Oldenburg in the pedigree.

Dam of a horse in the 2011 Bundeschampionate in Warenburg.

This Tail female line PETRA is also represented in the Hannoverian registry to the present day.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8339320]
What about the lower books and the ‘every horse must be identified’ rule in Germany? I thought every horse born in a province had to have some sort of COP or identification linked to that province. This has nothing to do with breeding approval in the upper level books, but those horses must ‘go’ somewhere.

Horses without the ‘right’ ancestors aren’t approved for breeding. Yet there are many horses with ‘other registry’ sires approved for breeding within say the Hannoverian register, and the Oldenburg register, too.

If a mare moves to a different province, aren’t her foals inspected and registered in that provinces registry most of the time?[/QUOTE]

Not sure what a province is for you. And yes every horse in Germany has to have a passport. But not for identifying its ancestors but for identification reason. That passport clearly identifies that specific horse and there is the vaccination history in the passport. Anytime you move the horse you have to carry the passport with you. And if your foal is born from registered parents, it will get the passport of the registry of his/her parents. A horse without registered parents will get a passport also but not from a registry…
In a way its comparable with a coggins certificate only with more information.

But that has nothing to do with the registries. Each registry has its own rules for accepting mares in its registry. And although historically the registries were for the different regions this is different now. For many years you had to prove that you are living in the area of Oldenburg if you wanted to breed Oldenburgs But this changed some years ago as well.
And in Holstein they only accept horses whose ancestors were mainly (maybe even 100% ) Holsteiner. And only a few stallions from outside Holstein were accepted for breeding in Holstein. So they would have never accepted Halla with no Holstein bloodlines… And there was a similar rule in Hannover. They would not accept mares without hannoverian bloodlines in their registry.
And Oldenburg went a different way. They accepted any horse they liked. Even Seize did not matter if the horse was considered to be a good horse. I think the mother of E.T. (Hugo Simon) was extremly small. Some registries measure the mares when they are presented. I know Mecklenburg does. If they are too small they reject them. Oldenburg does not measure the mares presented for registry. So E.T. mother was an registered Oldenburg.
But I am sure all of this is not interesting for you… Its enough to know that its all a big mix and Halla was 1/2 Standardbred.