Rude lesson student does not like riding - WWYD?

[kashmere]

I teach at a barn that I really quite like. Good atmosphere, sweet horses, nice kids etc. I teach from total beginners to girls starting to really understand contact/ connection and jumping up to about 2’3".

I have one little girl who just started lesson who just plainly does NOT want to be there. She has fun on and off, but it’s definitely not her thing. I’ve had these students occasionally, and I am comfortable speaking to parents and saying “hey, this doesn’t really seem to be for little Susie, have you thought about trying again next summer?” or something to that effect. This girl’s parent is really only adding to the issue, and part of the problem is that older sister rides, loves it, and mom obviously takes a lot of pride in it. She isn’t really willing to hear that little Susie might not be a rider, and to top it off just condones her behaviour consistently.

This student really stands out in terms of difficulty dealing with her. She has no interest in taking care of the ponies either before or after lesson, and she is rude. She yells at her mother (and she is only 7 years old!), talks back, pouts, and deliberately disobeys. Last night she lost her stirrup while trotting. I had her sit up tall and come to a walk to get it back, and reminded her “heels down eyes up” and she was fine, she walked off. As she walked past the stands where her mom was, mom says “remember what big sister says - make sure you don’t look at the dirt or that’s where you’ll end up!” As soon as mom started talking, the little girl starts screaming at her “shut up! be quiet! I don’t have to listen to you!” She even halted the horse and turned him around to keep yelling at her.

At that point, I walked over, took the reins and said “That’s enough. When you’re riding in a lesson you have to be kind to everyone in the arena. I need you to be kind to your mom or you can’t keep riding.” She started crying, kept yelling at her mom, and jumped off the horse.

I was really hoping that mom would march her out of the ring as mine would have done if I’d behaved that way at that age. Instead, she pulled her into a big hug, apologized to her and let her sulk on the stands for a while until she was ready to get back on.

The rest of the lesson went fine enough. When she dismounted, she left the reins around the neck, stirrups down and just walked off over to her mom. When I said “Hey Susie, you forgot your horse!” She rolled her eyes, dragged her feet back to me and said “Do I have to do everything now?”

Um. Yes.

When I went back into the barn to grab my next lesson kids 15 minutes later, she was sitting on a bucket while mom groomed. As they were leaving mom said “sorry about the outburst, I should have known she would be upset if I opened my mouth”

Holy. Moly. There was another mom sitting in the arena during her little outburst and I think a whole parade could have fit through her mouth her jaw was dropped so wide.

If this continues, she is going to disrupt lessons for all the other students, plus just be an insane headache to deal with.

I am thinking about talking to mom and suggesting private lessons, as they are shorter, more targeted, and it might be a good venue to set very strict ground rules. I’m thinking it might help mom see more quickly that her daughter just doesn’t like the sport.

But… any thoughts appreciated! So sorry for the novel!

[SnicklefritzG]

I agree that you need to have a conversation with the mom. It is very good that you have recognized the disruption this could cause to the other students. Some trainers don’t.

I like your idea to recommend private lessons where you can give her individualized attention and set strict ground rules for behavior that will not impact the other students. Give that a try to see how it goes. If a few private lessons solves the problem, great. If it doesn’t then I would recommend speaking with the mom to say that you don’t feel that keeping the younger daughter on as a student would be good for either of you at this time, but that you would be open to continuing if her demeanor improves.

[soloudinhere]

I hate to be like “kids these days!” But I ride in a barn full of kids and frankly they are all terrible. More to the point, their parents are terrible. I’m not that old, but every day I see parents doing things mine would never have done and putting up with backtalk and rude behavior that would have gotten me grounded into next century.

I’m not sure what it is, but I would encourage you to NOT let it impact your training. My trainer (who also teaches these kids) is much too soft on them for fear of their parents, and as a result they make little progress.

If you have to, then the answer to this riddle may be excusing said child from your lesson program. Her behavior is disruptive to the other children and she has to follow the same rules everybody else does. Talking back to the trainer and being rude to her mother is not tolerated, even if mom apologizes to you.

I think there is a family dynamic here with the older sister that is probably not something you are a part of but also needs to not be brought to the barn. You can ask the child point blank “do you want to ride today?” It sounds like she does fine but mom is a big piece of the problem and the rudeness comes out when mom gets involved.

[SendenHorse]

private lessons or no lessons.
You tried and there was no support from the mom, its very disrespectful.

[lmlacross]

I want to preface this by saying that Mom should not have offered any sort of commentary during the lesson-- especially in comparing little sis to more experienced/talented/committed big sis. I’m not condoning kid’s behavior AT ALL, but perhaps the comparisons are part of why she seems not to enjoy riding?

I would suggest to mom that you’re concerned about little sister’s enjoyment of the animals and the “work” associated with riding. Explain that you’re aiming to prepare kids as horsemen and -women, not just as riders. She seems not invested in that end of it, and resists or abdicates responsibility when made to care for her equine partners. Suggest that this either means she isn’t interested or isn’t ready.

Suggest to Mom that the two of you meet with little sister. In this meeting, you would share what you’ve observed with little sis in a very objective way (you rolled your eyes, you left pony with mom, etc.), then ask her if she would like to take a 6-month break from riding to consider whether riding and caring for horses are really something she wants. Explain that loving on her ponies is a part of learning to be a horse person, and that it’s a non-negotiable part of your program. Affirm that whatever she wants to do is okay, but that if she chooses to continue, the eye rolling and tossing of reins to mom must come to a hard stop.

[kashmere]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8947198]
I hate to be like “kids these days!” But I ride in a barn full of kids and frankly they are all terrible.[/QUOTE]

:lol: Oh god that just struck me as absolutely hilarious. I love most of my students and truly think they are great kids - but even many of the good ones fall into that bucket sometimes. Needed that laugh!

Mom’s presence 100% makes the sass worse, but she really pushes the line even without mom. I think she knows that I just won’t take it and doesn’t try too much rudeness with me, but even still she certainly isn’t what you’d call sweet. She started with us through an 8 week program the barn offers for brand new riders to introduce riding and horse care. Mom would drop her off and leave - she was saucy to the in-barn teacher and pushed her luck with me several times - despite several talkings to and times outs.

I should mention, too, that while I am an instructor, I don’t own the barn or lesson program and don’t quite have the power to excuse someone from the program. BO is a lovely, reasonable person and I’ll absolutely lean on her for help if need be, but she empowers us to have a lot of these conversations and make the decisions we need. That being said, if I am going to lose her the income of a student I would need to go to her first.

[Scribbler]

Half a century ago, when I was taking kiddy ballet lessons (and showing no talent, all I wanted to do even at age 6 was ride!), I remember that the teacher barred parents from watching the lessons. I was perfectly happy with that, and it set an early expectation that when you go to lessons, including going to school, that your parents are not hovering, interfering, changing the relationship between you and your teacher. Now I also remember that we used to sit and watch my sister’s skating lessons at the old Winter Club, but we were way up in the heated enclosed lounge off the end of the cafeteria, not at ice level.

I think that most children do better in lessons when their parents are not present. They can concentrate on what the teacher is saying, the teacher can set rules, the child is not divided in focus, and the child often “lives up” to the expectations of a new adult.

In this case, I think you are dealing with more than a reluctant rider. There are some behavior issues going on with the child, and child and mom are involved in a power struggle/conflict that the mom is not handling in an optimum way.

I would say, with the support of course of your lesson program or Barn Manager, if they have any direct oversight: you have a conversation with the mother outside of lesson times. You tell her that the program has a zero-tolerance policy on tantrums and sassing back the instructor, and that if anything happens again, the lesson is over for the day, but you will still charge. Then stick to it. Kid is rude, she’s off the horse. I wouldn’t necessarily expect her to groom and untack the horse in that case, so make sure you have a helper around.

You might also want the mother to not be present for the lesson. you can say that the child is having trouble focusing on the instructor with the mother present.

IME, it’s not remotely true that all parents want what’s best for their children, or at least not remotely true that all parents know how to get it. I can think of so many instances where parents nag their kids into exploding, or say the entirely wrong thing (as in this case) and then can go on and say how difficult or special or bad the child is. I can also think of cases where parents don’t reallly like their children. They love them, absolutely, and are over-invested in them. But they don’t actually like them on a moment by moment basis, and are always doing something to trip the kid up.

Kid should also have an option to quit lessons and do something she loves.

[poltroon]

I’m going to do the unpopular thing and defend the little girl for a moment.

Here you have a child who doesn’t want to ride, who is pressured to ride because older sister does, who is probably afraid, and then mom says:

“remember what big sister says - make sure you don’t look at the dirt or that’s where you’ll end up!”

It’s a trigger for all the things this girl is stressed out about. That she snapped is telling me that her fear and discomfort is pretty large, or at least larger than her fear of looking like a jerk in public.

So. Where to go from here?

1. Private lessons, definitely. Say, Susie is disrupting lessons for the other kids, and I think she is afraid and not having a good time. I’m willing to work with her one on one, but she doesn’t fit in the group lesson program right now.

Then find out what Susie wants to do for that half hour. If she doesn’t want to get on the pony, she doesn’t have to. That if she doesn’t care for the pony herself, she doesn’t ride. That should be made clear to mom. And set up a plan for what you are willing to do in that time, and maybe you’re only willing to do two lessons where she doesn’t ride. Whatever.

Susie may have some issues larger than the riding that you’re not privy to as well.

2. The school my daughter attends has a rule that parents are NOT allowed to talk to their students from the rail. I recommend adding that to your barn rules. Parents are also not allowed to help groom or tack the ponies.

[Calvincrowe]

I would sit down with mom, without Susie, and explain that child’s behavior is not okay. It changes or she can lesson elsewhere. Disruptive, rude and it will affect all the other little kids in the lesson if she continues, uncorrected. Tell mom that. Then have a meeting with mom and Susie. Ask the child directly if she wants to ride. Yes? Then lay down your rules: no talking to mom during lesson, mom says NOTHING to Susie during lesson, Susie does what you ask/tell her to do, no talking back. She follows all the rules. She answers no? Then you are done with them. There is no way this will get better with just you rowing the boat with one oar.

[kashmere]

Poltroon I think you’re right about a lot of this. The little girl is a pain in the rear, but she is just a little girl. She is not being set up to succeed here, and truly I want a good outcome for her.

I think I am going to try the private lesson conversation, and request that mom please refrain from offering suggestions during lessons (not something she tends to do in any case - this was the first time - but obviously it didn’t help).

[Mango20]

If you get her in private lessons, maybe try something totally different with her. Look for some of the threads about teaching boys for ideas. For instance, if she’s doing games and obstacle courses, she can’t be as easily compared to her sister, and she might actually start to have fun with the activities.

[HorseLuvr]

Honestly, I would ban mom from all lessons and you may get a better response from the little girl. She sounds like she is being forced into something in which she has no interest. Mom needs to take a chill pill. My biggest pet peeve is parents “coaching” from the rail while a trainer is trying to give a lesson to their child. It distracts the child and irritates the trainer. I don’t think you can really say the little girl is rude because she is so young. I think she is just frustrated especially with mom sitting there making comments with eagle eyes on her while she is trying to learn.

[gottagrey]

Is the child always rude or is it mostly when her mother is around? I agree w/ Poltroon - the kid probably totally has her mother’s number, the sister rides so that’s an issue and who knows what else. I don’t know that private lessons would help if this kid doesn’t want to ride. I would have a chat w/ the mother - does Susie want these lessons she doesn’t seem like she’s having fun/enjoying and ask/suggest about private lessons. If I were a parent, I think I would be very put off if I was told needed private lessons. I too would also suggest that mother be out of sight for the duration of the lessons.

Also - OP mentioned grooming/putting horse/pony away. My horse crazy niece came home from her riding lessons in tears because they were expected to Fig-8 their bridles and blanket their ponies. Great. But the instructors didn’t bother to show or explain what any of that meant or how do to it. My niece felt a complete failure so dreaded the lessons. I ended up going to a couple of lessons and showed every kid in the class how to blanket and then had a discussion with the manager. So maybe there is something in the lesson program where this child feels lacking in knowledge so rather than asking for help lashes out?

[NoSuchPerson]

The kid is only 7. The problem here is the Mom, not the kid.

I don’t know how much control you have over the situation, but if I had the authority to do so, I would ban the Mom from lessons and require that the girl take private lessons only for some specific length of time, with a “we will re-evaluate the situation at that point.”

However, I will also suggest that the real issue here may be sibling rivalry. I am 2 years older than my sister. I was a natural in the saddle when we started riding lessons. During our first show season, I won the high point non-jumping youth trophy on our little schooling show circuit. (After the first year, my peers caught up and I went back to being your average loser. :lol: )

My sister loved horses and loved riding, but her response to my success was to simply stop. Said she hated riding lessons, hated the instructor, hated the stable… Fortunately for her, my parents were totally non-horsey and could not have cared less whether she took lessons or not. We had ponies and they just allowed her to run wild with the neighborhood pony girl pack - which she did, riding bareback or in a western saddle. I joined in, but it wasn’t really my thing and I had too much sense (or was too fearful, depending on your point of view ) to do some of the stuff they did.

In short, she did love horses and riding, just wanted to do it in a way that she didn’t feel overshadowed by big sister.

[SmartAlex]

Am I the only one who feels just a little bit bad for the Mom? I mean, how does the girl’s father treat Mom if the daughter, at 7, has learned that response? Or are the little heathens learning that behavior from each other these days?

[rosegold]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8947357]
Am I the only one who feels just a little bit bad for the Mom? I mean, how does the girl’s father treat Mom if the daughter, at 7, has learned that response? Or are the little heathens learning that behavior from each other these days?[/QUOTE]

Jumping in only to comment that I personally know three girls (sisters, all young, fairly close in age) who say things to their mother that would make my mother slap me into next year, but the family unit as a whole is very strong and the father treats the mother like a queen. I think in my friends’ case, it’s just spoiled children through inconsistent parenting (the family is wealthy, and the girls get what they want [materially] a lot of the time). Hopefully the OP’s little girl doesn’t have a father who treats the mother badly, but I guess my point is that the kids can be rotten even if the parents aren’t.

Jumping out. xo

[rugbygirl]

I don’t feel bad for the mom. I can’t stand it when parents coach from the rail. It undermines the instructor and it takes an incredibly resilient kid to put up with coaching from a parent, at the absolute best of times.

Beginner rider losing a stirrup…I sometimes still panic if I lose a stirrup! Mom’s contribution is basically ‘don’t fall!’ Only she brings talented older sister into it. I don’t like picking apart parents either, but this wasn’t a shining moment.

I’d try to have lessons without mom for a while. Maybe private, but that might make the girl feel even more like a dunce.

Id give the kid a LITTLE space on some of the back talk for a short time. Prioritize what you want her to improve on…if it’s barn stuff focus on that for a while. See if you can get solid impRove mentioned in a few weeks with mom off the bleachers and focusing on one of two things at a time. The attitude might come around with just that.

She’s only 7.

[fanfayre]

The Mum MUST stay away from the lesson. She can sit out in the car and read her book/browse her tablet during that time if she doesn’t want to drop poopums off and come back to pick her up, but at no time during the tacking up/lesson/untacking time is she to be around the child.
That’s how I was brought up in my beginner lessons, and how I ran my own beginner lessons.

• NOTE: I no longer teach, so take my advice with as much salt as you’d normally add to your “advice meals”

If the child still doesn’t improve, then the heart-to-heart with the mother about child’s disinterest is definitely in order.

[kashmere]

Lots of really good thoughts everyone, thank you

There are probably a ton of factors that go into this that I’ll never know much less have control over - but I’ve got to try and make the situation during lessons work for everyone involved. Good feedback here!

[LilyandBaron]

Want to add that some kids are just brats. Still worth exploring all options, but at 7, the kid has a personality. Ever met those families with 3 great kids and 1 awful kid? Same genetics, same parents, same formula and different outcome? To be simple about it - think of horse breeding - same exact parents, and one can be a world champion, the other, not so much. But arriving at kid is a jerk, should be after exploring the options of talking to mom, private lessons, and then banishment of mom and/or child as warranted.