Rude lesson student does not like riding - WWYD?

[lucegoose]

[QUOTE=kashmere;8947399]
Lots of really good thoughts everyone, thank you

There are probably a ton of factors that go into this that I’ll never know much less have control over - but I’ve got to try and make the situation during lessons work for everyone involved. Good feedback here![/QUOTE]

You can’t control what happens at home, school, etc. with this little girl, but you can control what happens when she sets foot in the barn.

Banish the mother. In fact, banish all the parents from helping/talking/coaching, anything. Make it a universal lesson rule and you won’t regret it.

I would also say that you did the right thing by stopping her and making her get off when she was being really rude, but you ought to really follow through with it. Don’t let her get back on. The next time she acts out or doesn’t take care of the pony, don’t let her ride. Kindly tell Mom that she can take her home and try again next week.

[IPEsq]

Perhaps time outs aren’t the right strategy with this kid. What if you put her to work instead? Maybe it has to be work not involving the pony at first, like sweeping. And there’s a point where getting mad at the kid is still engaging. It’s kind of the same with horses who do annoying things for attention. Sometimes, you kind of have to walk away to get them to stop pawing or whatever otherwise they just learn to paw for your attention.

It’s been a long time ago now, but I taught a couple lessons of kids at this age when I was in college. I was a w/s, and the trainer had to haul a horse somewhere and asked me to teach as part of my chores for the day. There were 3 kids. One kid was the child of the big $ clients. She had the nicest ponies that were regularly schooled by an older kid. Her parents really wanted her to grow up to be a good rider. She was NOT into it at this age. And she was kind of bossy, so at one point she took her back talk (I told them to 2-point trot, and she stopped and said “NO!”) to try to convince the other 2 girls that they didn’t have to do anything I said either. The other girls were starting to follow suit not because they were rude kids but because they were followers of the rude, bossy one. Before my entire lesson went completely off the rails, I told rude kid that if she was so insistent on not participating in the lesson then she could just walk around the arena while I taught the other 2. But she couldn’t go back to the barn yet. Not exactly a time out, but no longer engaging. Thankfully, other 2 kids turned back into the good students that they were. After a little while, rude kid decided maybe it would be more fun to participate since the other girls weren’t just going to follow her lead after all.

I think part of the behavior is that they like the drama of it. Performing for an audience.

That kid in my story did turn out to be a nice rider and a much better behaved kid as she got older, but I was glad that was the only lesson I had to do!

[D_BaldStockings]

Yes, banish mom.
Mom interrupted HER lesson. And did not get a word of correction from the teacher.

She does not ‘oversee’ her child during school, she asks the child about school after she is done.

Mom doesn’t get to see child until lesson is over and horse is put up.

Seven is young to fully aftercare for a pony; I would expect help from teacher or grooms. Or to call mom in at that point to help.

If you can’t find a way to make her lessons more fun, with more praise and more success, kiddo needs to take a break from lessons.

Of course you don’t tolerate rude. But 2 adults ‘teaching’ AND getting her in trouble when she objects to non-teacher butting in is an understandable blowup at that age.

Yes, you need to talk to mom. Probably not the talk you were thinking.

[Soaponarope]

What a nightmare. I took DD to ballet for a while. There was a firm “no watching” rule. Parents were not allowed to watch and there wasn’t even a window on the studio door. That’s what this mom needs.

I think the first thing you have to do is get rid of the mom! Tell her you would prefer some one on one time with junior mint outright, or send her on an errand during the lesson. The kid has probably learned to communicate with mom by seeking her negative attention and then she gets an outburst and a big dramatic hug and apology, as that is what the mom has to offer. The kid may be damaged beyond help at this point. But you could try getting her alone. Give her a lot of positive feedback for what she does well. Don’t make a big deal about bad behavior. But do give consequences. She needs to be put to work in some way when she f’s up, rather than get a scolding or other drama.

I do not envy you. And I feel bad for the kid. The mom is a jerk.

[RPM]

Are you able/allowed to talk with the kid’s schoolteacher to find out how she behaves in class, away from mom?

[Lord_Helpus]

I haven’t read all the posts, but any years ago I had a student like this kid.

We were at a schooling show and she was riding in cross rails. She chipped (all her fault) and started jerking on her pony’s mouth. When she came out of the ring, her mom started to offer support and the kid started SCREAMING at her mother.

I went over, grabbed the kid and pulled her off the pony. I told her to go sit under a tree and think about what she just did, and that she show was over for her. I had a friend put the pony in the van and went off to deal with my other kids.

The kid was 6 — plenty old enough to know that actions have consequences.

I looked back and the mom was in shock but made no effort to go near her daughter for as long as I noticed From That Day On, this little girl was wonderful. Kind to her pony, courteous to others and polite to her mother. Amazing!!!

Even more amazing was that, about 5 years ago, she tracked me down on FB and told me that she had never forgotten that day; it was a turnaround in her whole life. She is now a trainer in California and demands kindness and courtesy from all her kids. She has a large barn and a happy one.

LSS: The mother may put up with/encourage/allow this behavior, but there is no reason for you to do the same. If you think you are tired of it, you can bet your booties that the other kids and parents are, too. If I was a mom sitting there watching her own kid and seeing this disruptive/rude/untenable/fucktard of a kid take over, I would pull my kid out and find another lesson barn.

If it were me, I would sit her down as soon as she gets there and, politely, read her the riot act. Lay out exactly what you expect and, if she cannot or will not live up to the rules, then she can go home and not come back.

And I would make sure the mother was listening.

I cannot believe that you are putting up with this and are trying to find ways to accommodate her. She is toxic and needs some tough ‘love’. If her mom won’t, then you will have to.

You cannot allow one rude kid to ruin everyone else’s good time. She shapes up or ships out. No middle ground.

Yes, I am from the older generation. I do not put up with rude behavior, nor do I allow it to happen in my presence.

[SnicklefritzG]

Awesome post.

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8947835]
I haven’t read all the posts, but any years ago I had a student like this kid.

We were at a schooling show and she was riding in cross rails. She chipped (all her fault) and started jerking on her pony’s mouth. When she came out of the ring, her mom started to offer support and the kid started SCREAMING at her mother.

I went over, grabbed the kid and pulled her off the pony. I told her to go sit under a tree and think about what she just did, and that she show was over for her. I had a friend put the pony in the van and went off to deal with my other kids.

The kid was 6 — plenty old enough to know that actions have consequences.

I looked back and the mom was in shock but made no effort to go near her daughter for as long as I noticed From That Day On, this little girl was wonderful. Kind to her pony, courteous to others and polite to her mother. Amazing!!!

Even more amazing was that, about 5 years ago, she tracked me down on FB and told me that she had never forgotten that day; it was a turnaround in her whole life. She is now a trainer in California and demands kindness and courtesy from all her kids. She has a large barn and a happy one.

LSS: The mother may put up with/encourage/allow this behavior, but there is no reason for you to do the same. If you think you are tired of it, you can bet your booties that the other kids and parents are, too. If I was a mom sitting there watching her own kid and seeing this disruptive/rude/untenable/fucktard of a kid take over, I would pull my kid out and find another lesson barn.

If it were me, I would sit her down as soon as she gets there and, politely, read her the riot act. Lay out exactly what you expect and, if she cannot or will not live up to the rules, then she can go home and not come back.

And I would make sure the mother was listening.

I cannot believe that you are putting up with this and are trying to find ways to accommodate her. She is toxic and needs some tough ‘love’. If her mom won’t, then you will have to.

You cannot allow one rude kid to ruin everyone else’s good time. She shapes up or ships out. No middle ground.

Yes, I am from the older generation. I do not put up with rude behavior, nor do I allow it to happen in my presence.[/QUOTE]

[Capall]

Boy if I had behaved like that to my mom and/or my trainer, my trainer would have yanked me off and set me to cleaning tack/stalls/barn aisles/the bathrooms… and they had to be REALLY clean. Trainer would check. Then when I went to ride again, I may or may not have stirrups. Of course, I WANTED to be there so that is the biggest difference. I think I gave trainer attitude ONE time and that was it. She has a LOT of tack!

I guess you can try private lessons, but I would make it ABSOLUTELY clear to the child that rudeness and bratty behavior will result in the kid being removed from pony, and the rest of the lesson time will be spent with you looming over her while she performs elbow grease tasks, that the pony better be SPOTLESS and the tack clean! If kid can’t seem to get it together enough to not be a feral satanic beast, then I’d tell the mom “I’m sorry, but I am not going to give Susie anymore lessons, and this is why…”

[kashmere]

I wont quote it again, but yes- Lord Helpus, great post! This child will not be allowed to take over lessons and/or be detrimental to other students’ learning in any way. We’ll see how the chat with mom goes.

[BigMama1]

Some things I’ve found helpful in similar situations:

1. Private lessons
2. A strict “no parents in the barn” rule before, during and after lessons. Parents are welcome to sit in the viewing room and watch the lesson but not in the arena where they can be heard, and are not allowed to hover over the kids talking and / or helping with grooming and tacking up.
3. Talk to the kid and ask what she wants to learn. What might make riding more fun for her?

[Ready_To_Riot]

I personally feel this type of behavior typically stems from an older parent. One that maybe had trouble getting pregnant or didn’t plan to have a second child and now little 7 yr old is an “oops” type baby (since there is an older sibling. You didn’t specify how much older), or a product of parents who just simply wanted to wait to have kids until their life was in order and they had the ability to give said child everything he/she could ever desire. Older parents usually let a lot slide with their babies than say a 20 yr old.

I’m 26 and have had the glorious opportunity (sarcasm! Lol) to watch many of my friends raise their children. Some of my friends got pregnant as early as 16 some of my older friends just had their first baby in their mid to late 30s. The younger parents tend to put up with less crap from their kids because for the most part, they are kids themselves. At 16, 18, 20, how much annoying whiney back talking child were you willing to put up with? That’s just my personal opinion, so before we go and 100% blame the dad or the kid, let’s look at mom. She probably isn’t an awful mother, she probably just loves little Susie so much that she can’t dream or getting on to get (this also rules out that little Susie was an oops baby as she would most likely just be ignored, but still allowed to get away with awful behavior). Don’t be too hard on the family.

With that being said, don’t tolerate this crap. It’s your arena. Your rules. I’ve had a few of these kids. My first rule for them, was no parent interaction. At all. Parents could watch, but if it took focus away the lesson for even a millisecond, parent must walk away. No if ands or buts about it. It’s hard to be “demanding” like this without risking losing the client. As someone who also worked for someone else, I get it! I would completely suggest that you speak with the BO before you say anything. You two need to get on the same page and you need to let her know that by speaking up, you could be risking losing not one, but two, clients. Little sis and big sis. Discuss how you would like to handle it and after okayed, proceed forward!

I also second the private lessons. She doesn’t need competition right now. She needs a positive atmosphere. Mix things up in her private lessons. Obstacle courses that incorporate whatever she would be learning in her regular lesson, bareback lessons, let her decorate the pony before lessons with ribbons and paint or whatever to get her involved in horsemanship. There are a lot of options out side of “okay post the trot. Then walk. Then trot. You’re on the wrong diagonal” etc.

Good luck. It’s hard!

[AffirmedHope]

I would be frank with mom and tell her that Susie is no longer welcome in the lesson program with her attitude. Give maybe one more warning and after another outburst (there will be another one) tell that that’s it. If she takes her other daughter to a different barn then so be it.

It’s a waste of your time, and I would not want to have any part of putting this girl through something she clearly dislikes and does not want to do. This isn’t homework, she should be damn well allowed to pick a hobby that SHE likes and enjoys…

You can’t make the mom see the light regarding her poor parenting choices, but you can make a decision to be actively participating in them.

[crosscreeksh]

A Butt Whuppin’ is in order… in my opinion!! Mom deserves one too!!! I would not deal with a child like this in MY lessons!! It will contaminate the other children who want to learn to ride!!

[mroades]

I always let parents know right away that I have a special roll of “parental duct tape” that I am not afraid to use ???

[Equisis]

You’ve already gotten lots of advice, but I’ll add my $0.02. I agree with suggesting private lessons. Her behavior is disruptive to the other students, and that’s unacceptable. Also- 7 is young. I’ve done a fair bit of teaching and I think 7 is tricky, because kids can be so different at that age- I’ve had 7 year olds that are happily cruising around 2’ courses on good ponies, and I’ve had 7 year olds who have such a hard time focusing that we make very little progress. Private lessons allow you to vary the structure and focus on what engages the student, rather than trying to make something work for everyone. At that age, riding should be FUN.

Mom should definitely be told that she CANNOT butt in during lessons. I agree with those that advocate for parents sitting in the car during lessons- if there is resistance, a good compromise is allowing them back for the last 5-10min of the lesson to see what you worked on (but no feedback!). But the student needs to focus on you, and most children find it hard to do that if a parent is there, especially if they don’t want to do what you’re asking and they think the parent might overrule you. As I have gotten older, I’ve gotten more confident in asking parents to remove themselves from lessons, and I usually get a positive response. Given that she has an older sister that rides, I might mention to the mother as well that older sis should NOT be offering riding advice to little sis, either at the barn or at home. Any sort of competition, whether real or imagined, is going to make the situation worse.

There might be some issues at play that you’re not aware of- family dynamics, fear issues, or developmental/learning issues. My youngest cousin has some sensory and learning issues (likely due to a very seriously ill as a newborn) and while you wouldn’t know it from most interactions with her, sometimes these issues manifest themselves in ways that appear to be behavioral. 7 year olds are not very good at dealing with frustration constructively, and unfortunately it is probably out of your hands, but trying to identify some ways to alleviate her frustrations might be worthwhile. For example- with the younger kids, especially the ones that might be too shy or too proud to ask for help, we end the lesson with “Three Threes”- they tell me three favorite things from the lesson, ask me three questions, and we do three vocab words (horse parts, tack parts, etc). The questions don’t have to be about anything in particular (i.e. sometimes it’s “can we trail ride next week”) but it gives them an opportunity to ask, and it also is an appropriate way for them to give me feedback (pay attention to the favorites- what didn’t they like?).

That said, the kid might just be spoiled and used to getting away with it. Talking back, disobeying you, etc is not permitted and she is old enough to be excused from the lesson. Three strikes- first time, she has to apologize (and state what she is apologizing for) before continuing; second time, she has to apologize and also apologize to her classmates for being disruptive; third time, she gets off and is done for the day. I would also say if she gets off her pony mid-lesson for any temper-related reason, like in your story, she does not get to get back on. Make sure she understands the rules and ALWAYS enforce them. You sound like a kind and patient instructor, and she needs to be respectful, regardless of how she treats her mother.

[Obiwan]

I’ve been this kid. Not the back talking, I was much to shy and quiet for that, but I had a mom who would be accidentally hurtful in the way she speaks. Now that I’m older I know when she’s talking she means to be supportive but it still comes off as ‘your brother is so much better, what a hero and inspiration he is’. Which is why what you’re sharing makes me think it could be an overly loving and supporting mom making their kid frustrated in their progress because they have an old daughter to compare her to.

A family friend bought my brother and I lessons one summer. He progressed much quicker than I did. I was younger, and with no sense of rhythm, I could not post to the trot. Lesson after lesson my mom would call out to me repeating exactly what the trainer was saying. And on the way to the lessons I was reminded of all that I wasn’t able to accomplish last lesson and what my brother was. It felt like constantly being reminded how much you suck. I felt like shit, I could easily imagine a little kid becoming resentful to the point of lashing out.

I pine for the girl, and would side with talking to the mom and ask that she do something else while Susie is riding. Maybe ask her if she want’s to groom a horse while her kid rides. Before just telling the mom her kid can no longer ride, I’d encourage you try to do a little detective work to see if you can get to the bottom of the issues.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=kashmere;8947182]
As she walked past the stands where her mom was, mom says “remember what big sister says - make sure you don’t look at the dirt or that’s where you’ll end up!” [/QUOTE]

Tell Mom to shut up and let you teach the riding lesson.

Tell kid to get off the pony and go home if she can’t behave.

None of this nonsense should be tolerated.

[Come_Shine]

Working with kids with special needs, as people above said, you may not be privy to some underlying issues.

When mom said she knew Susie would get upset, perhaps you can use this as an opening to ask mom how she usually handles things or what she has tried in the past.

It’s heartbreaking when kids with behavioural issues are written off or kicked out of things for challenges that are simply beyond their control.

Their world gets whittled down to nothing.

Modelling appropriate behaviour while ignoring poor or unwanted behaviour can be a powerful behaviour modification tool. Also backward chaining can be helpful.

Good luck. You sound very patient.

[OverandOnward]

When you talk to the mom about no participation during lessons, remember to coach her about what is acceptable outside of lessons. No coaching in the car or at home. No reminding. No discussion of technique. No comparing with anyone else, and especially not a sibling.

The only role for the parent is to ask at home “Did you enjoy your ride today?” Whatever the answer, just listen and give neutral replies. The only thing they can coach is a generally positive attitude, and maybe some perspective on accepting the instructor’s suggestions. No riding specifics. No comparisons to others … ever.

This may be a toxic mom - or it may just be a clueless mom. This mom may not know WHAT to say to support her younger daughter. Or how encourage a good relationship between the sisters. Is there a book or counselor you can refer mom to? Might be the answer to a lot of problems!

[drifterlee]

The problem with kids riding hunter/jumper (and many other disciplines) is, as you must know, that they are spoiled rich kids. They have their parents twisted around their little fingers. Unfortunately, parents now do not discipline their children or teach them to respect their teachers. I was a teacher for over 30 years and have watched the erosion of parental control over their children. This little girl is most likely scared and hates riding, but the parents do not understand that. However, letting a child talk back to you in such a way and then hugging her is not the answer. I would have been yanked off the horse by my mother/and or trainer and slapped in the mouth. I am not saying physical discipline is okay, but there must be a way to teach children respect - no matter how much they hate their teacher. The trainer needs to sit down with the parents and tell them that the little girl does not appear to like riding, possibly even fears it, and they should not push it on her. The mother is not doing her child any favors by not teaching her to show respect. The trainer might also talk to the child and find out what the child really wants to do, maybe dance lessons instead?