I have two kids, one of whom is around the age of the girl in this account. I’ve made it clear to them that riding is a privilege and not to be taken lightly. It sounds to me like this mother is used to being walked all over AND unknowingly fomenting tension between herself and her daughters by comparing the youngest to the oldest. This would cause lots of problems in my household as well.
When my child exhibits a bad attitude and/or laziness or disrespect regarding a lesson I am paying for and instructors are giving their time/energy to, I offer a chance to get it together or remove said child from the lessons until s/he is either mature enough to appreciate them and be respectful or finds something s/he actually enjoys and will take seriously.
In a nut shell: It sounds to me like this child does not enjoy riding or appreciate horses and it may be a good idea to pull the mother aside and suggest that Little Susie be given “a break” from lessons until she is a bit older. Point out that she seems disinterested in horse care, management, and riding and may benefit from some time off to consider her passions, or something along those lines. I was told something similar about my own child from a music teacher and agreed 100%. My child then found an activity she really enjoyed and has stuck with it for well over a year. Moral of the story: this kid probably isn’t into horses or riding. And that’s OK. But the mother needs to be led gently to that conclusion asap for all of your sakes!
Yes, a chat with mom is in order. During that conversation can you inquire and learn about what else the little girl likes? Growing up in the shadow of a big sister who rides may be very difficult for her. Mom has a parental responsibility to help the kid pursue her own interests. Yes, it’s difficult having kids in two different sports, but it’s something parents do. So if kiddo has always wanted to take gymnastics, or music, or play softball, the parent needs to try to make it work for both kiddos.
[QUOTE=pony4me;8948213]
Yes, a chat with mom is in order. During that conversation can you inquire and learn about what else the little girl likes? Growing up in the shadow of a big sister who rides may be very difficult for her. Mom has a parental responsibility to help the kid pursue her own interests. Yes, it’s difficult having kids in two different sports, but it’s something parents do. So if kiddo has always wanted to take gymnastics, or music, or play softball, the parent needs to try to make it work for both kiddos.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree. My 2nd kid did NOT want to take the same lessons as the older child and we accommodated by signing them up for different activities. Gives them both goals to work toward independently and they love being an “expert” in something different than their sibling. One does soccer, for example, and the other dance. This mother needs to realize not all little girls are obsessed with ponies!!
I am not sure what you can do, considering that you do not have the final say on who rides in your lessons.
I think this is a very unhealthy environment for this particular child. She is clearly unhappy at the barn, and I suspect parent-child-sibling dynamics play into that. I find myself feeling sorry for the kid. She is only 7 years old. Perhaps she has bad manners that need correcting, but there is also a very sad (angry) little girl in there. Sounds like everyone wants to her to behave like a happy child when she is not one. It also sounds like everyone is well-intentioned.
Has anyone asked this kid what she wants and likes to do?
I haven’t read all the replies, but I have had to deal with situations with kids that did not want to ride but the parents insisted, and the kids were disobedient and beyond rude. I politely but pointedly remind parents that they need to be quiet during lessons. I put kids in situations where not obeying and doing what they need to do is harder than just doing it.
For example, I had one little girl who would purposely yank hard on the ponies reins, and when I told her not to, she looked me in the eye defiantly, took the rein, and yanked hard. This was a kid that did NOT want to ride, but parents insisted she do so for a while. I put her on a big horse that would not tolerate the yanking and would in turn yank back on the rider. Normally, if I used this 15.2H horse that pulled with a little kid I would put daisy reins on her so she couldn’t pull the kid out of the saddle.
But in this case, I didn’t do it. This was a six year old. I told her not to yank on the reins because the horse would yank on her, and she purposely did it. The horse snapped its head down, and pulled the 6 year old right up onto her neck. Shook the kid up a bit, but I had no sympathy, and told her it was her fault for yanking in the first place. I made her ride that horse for the next couple of weeks, and she didn’t repeat the behavior. But she was not very comfortable on the horse, and asked if she could return to the pony. I told her not unless she could not yank on the pony. She agreed, I put her back on the pony, and we got along until her series of lessons were finished.
Another example occurred during summer camp when one rider came and did NOT want to ride, and was very vocal that he wasn’t going to ride and I couldn’t make him. Because these were group lessons, and he needed to participate, I told him he still needed to tack up his pony and take it to the ring. He was being very adamant that he wouldn’t ride and I couldn’t make him, and if I were going to try it was going to be a full-blown tantrum. I told him that he didn’t have to ride, but he had to be dressed to ride, and tack his pony and go to the ring anyway. We got to the ring, and I told him he had to lead his pony around the ring with the rest of the group. He said, “ok but I’m not riding”. When the rest of the riders were trotting, I told him he had to trot his pony in hand as well. Dressed in full riding gear including safety vest, in the middle of July, on a hot day, he was running around the ring with the pony. After ten minutes I asked him if he wanted to ride. He said NO. So, I didn’t ask him again. Another ten minutes goes by of him jogging around the ring, and he stops and says, “ummm…do you think I could ride now?” I let him ride (he found running on his own two feet leading the pony wasn’t fun), and I had no more problems with him not wanting to ride for the rest of camp. He was a 7 year old. (And, actually, he usually liked to ride, but has times when he just wants to do the opposite of what he is supposed to).
I have had to deal with kids getting off their horses, turning them loose, and trowing a tantrum on the ground. I usually find a creative way as above to deal with it.
Sometimes a good talking-to the kid helps; I had one kid who was bad about backtalking to both his parents and to me–I finally had it, stopped him in the middle of tacking up, and told him in no uncertain terms that it was not acceptable behavior to me. I haven’t had another problem lately.
With kids that make the parent do the grooming, or take care of the horse, I will tell the parent (and child) that it isn’t the parents job, and they need to let the child do the work. I often have to repeatedly remind mom or dad to let the child do it, because the kid is very good at manipulating the parent into doing the work. I have to stay on top of it.
As a mom and a rider and a former child advocate…
There is no earthly reason a child of 7 needs to be taking riding lessons, especially if she is so completely unhappy doing it. It is not a mandate of parenting that a child has to be in ANY activities at this age.
Take the pressure off the poor thing. Let her play at home, find some girl friends who like whatever it is she likes and go on some low key play dates. Let her live like a kid without all this da*n pressure and parental influence.
It’s the equivalent of throwing them out in the pasture for a year or so to grow up. Just like a young horse in over its head, she’ll be a neurotic mess shortly, if she isn’t already.
Enough with the pressure!!!
Before being a school teacher I probably would be saying the kid is just being bratty and leave it at that. Yes the child is being bratty but IME there is usually an underlying reason that is usually a pretty good reason to be acting out like that. Now that also doesn’t mean you have to put up with it! You can be firm and compassionate. Sometimes these kids just need a little kindness too, imagine if she is always acting out she’s probably getting a lot of negative attention too even if it doesn’t seem like her mom is like that.
I do think speaking to mom about not talking to her during lessons is important. And yes be firm on how to treat the pony-but instead of just saying no taking a moment to say I see you are having a bad day-we don’t jerk on our pony even when we are having a bad day.
Don’t get me wrong I’m all about tough love too when needed but usually starting with some compassion helps break through to them IME. But it’s tough when you probably only see her once a week vs my students I saw every day.
[QUOTE=oldernewbie;8948294]
As a mom and a rider and a former child advocate…
There is no earthly reason a child of 7 needs to be taking riding lessons, especially if she is so completely unhappy doing it. It is not a mandate of parenting that a child has to be in ANY activities at this age.
Take the pressure off the poor thing. Let her play at home, find some girl friends who like whatever it is she likes and go on some low key play dates. Let her live like a kid without all this da*n pressure and parental influence.
It’s the equivalent of throwing them out in the pasture for a year or so to grow up. Just like a young horse in over its head, she’ll be a neurotic mess shortly, if she isn’t already.
Enough with the pressure!!![/QUOTE]
Holy moly, do I ever agree with you!! As the lowly instructor in this food chain, I can’t quite chuck the kid out to play and grow up for a year 
But I’m hoping that I can help to manage the situation at the barn to be more positive for everyone.
some kids are just brats, but everyone deserves to have due diligence performed rather than an assumption made they will always be that way. This isn’t directed to your comment specifically, but just in general.
Some kids live up to the expectations made of them. Others need a serious CTJ moment, like what one COTH’er did with the 6 year old that got pulled off her pony and told to sit under a tree. That changed the little girls life. More people, parents as well as teachers/trainers etc. need to be willing and able to do that kind of thing so kids don’t run amok.
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8947405]
Want to add that some kids are just brats. Still worth exploring all options, but at 7, the kid has a personality. Ever met those families with 3 great kids and 1 awful kid? Same genetics, same parents, same formula and different outcome? To be simple about it - think of horse breeding - same exact parents, and one can be a world champion, the other, not so much. But arriving at kid is a jerk, should be after exploring the options of talking to mom, private lessons, and then banishment of mom and/or child as warranted.[/QUOTE]
GOOD GRIEF
Is there a gun to your head , forcing this unwilling child on you?
“Mom, Susie isn’t happy to do this, she disrupts the others, thanks, but I won’t be her instructor anymore.”
Allons-y -
No gun! But I mentioned earlier that I don’t own the barn nor run the lesson program, I’m just an instructor I for sure have the option of going to BO and saying “nope, not teaching her anymore” and going from there, but I’d like to explore options for managing it first.
[QUOTE=kashmere;8948431]
Allons-y -
No gun! But I mentioned earlier that I don’t own the barn nor run the lesson program, I’m just an instructor I for sure have the option of going to BO and saying “nope, not teaching her anymore” and going from there, but I’d like to explore options for managing it first.[/QUOTE]
I think your idea to attempt to manage it is a wise one. That shows you care about your clients as well as your employer (the BO/BM), but also respect yourself.
Some trainers put up with everything which isn’t good for them or the other students. Some trainers won’t put up with anyone and won’t give anyone a chance or show any effort to work anything out. That isn’t good either. Somewhere in there is a happy medium.
I hope you are able to manage it. If you don’t run the lesson program, what I would do is just have the conversation with the mother and then keep the BO/BM informed as to what you said.
OK Older sister is riding and doing well. Kid may or may not want to ride, but MOM is creating a situation where younger daughter is feeling as though she must be as good as her sister. This may be a shadow of the rest of her life. I used to feel sorry for the kids in school who were expected to perform as well in all subjects as did an older sibling. I had no siblings, so could be a clod on my own
MOM needs to learn to sit quietly and convey positive feedback. Then if that young lady continues to be rude without reason Mom may deal with her. As it is Mom is giving her reason to be resentful.
[QUOTE=oldernewbie;8948294]
As a mom and a rider and a former child advocate…
There is no earthly reason a child of 7 needs to be taking riding lessons, especially if she is so completely unhappy doing it. It is not a mandate of parenting that a child has to be in ANY activities at this age.
Take the pressure off the poor thing. Let her play at home, find some girl friends who like whatever it is she likes and go on some low key play dates. Let her live like a kid without all this da*n pressure and parental influence.
It’s the equivalent of throwing them out in the pasture for a year or so to grow up. Just like a young horse in over its head, she’ll be a neurotic mess shortly, if she isn’t already.
Enough with the pressure!!![/QUOTE]
As a horse-crazy girl who never got to pursue her dream, but was fortunate enough to have a DD who started out horse-crazy as well, I will say that most barns will not start lessons until 8 - there just isn’t the maturity to deal with everything.
My DD started in the hippotherapy program at a nearby barn when she was 6.5 years old, because their lesson program started at 7. My FIL died shortly after she started, and we ended moving closer to MIL (about 1.5 hours west). We got settled, and started lessons at a new barn nearby about 9 months later. NewBarn started lessons at 8, but I convinced the trainer to at least let DD come out and evaluate her, and I would happily pay the going lesson rate. She was blown away by DD’s balance (yay hippotherapy!), and took her on at 7.5.
We had some ridiculously giggly moments, but overall DD did quite well, and only had one incident where she kicked an old schoolmaster with both feet when she had been warned not to (because while he was definitely a one-in-a-trillion horse, he was, like Reins Horse mentioned above, capable of teaching his own lesson in the moment). She kicked, he got three steps of a canter in, and Trainer (who was riding alongside) grabbed the reins. She yelled at DD, and I was completely fine with it. She apologized to me afterwards, and I said “Absolutely not! DD was warned, she didn’t listen. You (Trainer) are responsible for DD, the horse, and everyone else on this property. You yell if you need to save someone from doing something stupid. Once we cross onto the property, you are the one in charge.” She seemed a bit taken aback (pretty sure I was the only parent that ever said something like that), and never abused it.
However, I did become one of the Bad Moms who would respond if Instructor talked to me during the lesson - and was most likely the cause of DD stopping her lessons - which breaks my heart.
I then stopped watching lessons (visited with others at the barn in the aisle) so Trainer wouldn’t talk to me, which disappointed DD tremendously. She really wanted me to watch - just not talk to Trainer during the lesson. Incredibly hard lesson learned the hard way.
I wish Trainer, or another lesson mom, had pulled me aside, and said “Shut up and sit there. Don’t offer advice, or talk to Trainer, while DD is in the arena. Unless a Transformer is tearing the roof off or something - then it’s ok.”
DD is now 16.5, and has avoided going to the barn for a few years. She came with me at the wonderful barn we are at now (not with Trainer), and just walking around with our horse, who follows her like a big draft puppy :love-struck: She did hand me her phone, to post a bazillion video clips and photos so her friends could see him. (Insert Mom doing internal happy dance like crazy! )
I sit quietly, let them have their time, and don’t make a sound. I didn’t even dare to think about encouraging in-hand showing.
Mom is going to drive Younger DD away from horses entirely if she doesn’t shut up and sit down. Feel free to share my story with her if you think it will help illustrate the point.
OP sorry I missed that salient point, you can’t say who is in the lesson program. This is a tough one. One on one, talk to Mom, lots of good advice (not mine, sorry).
I think it’s pretty funny that everyone is calling this 7 year old “Susie”, when you’d have to search a long time to actually find a kid of that age with that name! You might as well call her “Myrtle”. Susan was a top-10 name back in the 1960s, but in 2009, it was the 759th most popular name (and has continued dropping every year and sits at 929th for 2015) Her name is more likely to be Isabella, Emma, Olivia or Sophia (https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/popularnames.cgi)
(I do realize “little Susie” is just a saying, originating when Susie was a popular kid’s name, it just strikes me as funny how unlikely it is to actually be this child’s name)
Anyway, back to the subject, I think it would be great to have a talk with her mom. Approach it as you trying to understand and help, not as you coming to her saying she and/or her child is a problem. I agree that the mom needs to be told not to say anything during lessons. I do not agree that she needs to be banished completely without a chance to change first. As a mom, I would walk away from a riding facility that feels it can’t do business with me watching. I’ve watched almost every lesson my son has had over the last 8 years. I am the one who teaches him at home, and watching his lessons is extremely helpful. Even if it wasn’t, I would want to know what was going on and watch him (hopefully) do well. I watched when he took gymnastics, swimming, and lacrosse as well. It’s part of my job as parent to be supportive and show interest. From being in the horse world myself, I have always known enough to keep my mouth shut and just watch. Obviously that’s not the case will all parents, so hopefully just pointing it out to her will fix that problem.
This talk will also be your chance to find out if there is something else going on with this kid you’re not aware of. I taught a 10 year old boy for months before his parents clued me in that he was on ritalin during the week but they took him off on the weekends (when I taught him). That explained his fleeting attention, and I was unhappy that I wasn’t told this sooner, so I could work with it instead of fighting it.
Like the idea of private lessons.
Like the idea of mom staying QUIET - no negative, no positive.
Like the idea of you being able to work with the kid once and ask her if she wants to ride, and if working 1:1 with you makes it more fun.
I would not want my kid having to put up with this in a group lesson (ie, together with miss not-Suzie).
Cannot have this distraction in the group lesson - not safe, and ruins the atmosphere for everyone else.
I have witnessed MULTIPLE breakthroughs in riding situations. For example, “I won’t…” Instructor says, “You save that attitude for home. Don’t bring it here”. Or, kid says, “I can’t get on the horse by myself.” Instructor says, “Sure you can, and I am going to show you how right now, and then you will know how to do it”. Many others!
OP, good luck!
[QUOTE=poltroon;8947223]
I’m going to do the unpopular thing and defend the little girl for a moment.
Here you have a child who doesn’t want to ride, who is pressured to ride because older sister does, who is probably afraid, and then mom says:
It’s a trigger for all the things this girl is stressed out about. That she snapped is telling me that her fear and discomfort is pretty large, or at least larger than her fear of looking like a jerk in public.
So. Where to go from here?
- Private lessons, definitely. Say, Susie is disrupting lessons for the other kids, and I think she is afraid and not having a good time. I’m willing to work with her one on one, but she doesn’t fit in the group lesson program right now.
Then find out what Susie wants to do for that half hour. If she doesn’t want to get on the pony, she doesn’t have to. That if she doesn’t care for the pony herself, she doesn’t ride. That should be made clear to mom. And set up a plan for what you are willing to do in that time, and maybe you’re only willing to do two lessons where she doesn’t ride. Whatever.
Susie may have some issues larger than the riding that you’re not privy to as well.
- The school my daughter attends has a rule that parents are NOT allowed to talk to their students from the rail. I recommend adding that to your barn rules. Parents are also not allowed to help groom or tack the ponies.[/QUOTE]
This. There is more going on than you think.
And what ComeShine said.
You can model behavior, and you can spend some time reading about learning disabilities/emotional issues. There won’t be one size fits all and it will be groundhog day time and time again. But it’s worth it; trust me.
So what has happened with this kid now? I’m curious as to how what was implemented (some really great suggestions in this thread) have played out over a bit of time?
Allow me to update!
I talked with mom, and my approach was basically “Hi Mom, what do you think about hanging back a little bit in Susie’s lessons? I think she gets distracted more easily when she’s thinking about you there.”
She agreed, and was sweet about it. Her approach to telling Susie was not what I would have done. Instead of just quietly slipping away, she said “Susie, I’m going to go watch big sister ride, have fun in your lesson!” Which (duh) elicited a tantrum and tears. Luckily, I think mom is more clueless than anything else, so I stepped in and said “Susie, mom will be back later to check in, and she’s just going to take a stroll around the farm so she can watch big sister and you. Now time to hop up and get going!”
Mom, thankfully, scuttled away at this point and all went relatively well. That was 3 lessons ago, and while it’s not all peachy keen, it’s a little bit better. I can’t really begin to know all of the dynamics at play - I don’t think there’s anything sinister; I think it’s more that big sister is simply an easier going child, and mom has been able to use a “best friends!” approach to parenting with her, and the outcome has been a really nice kid. Little sister is just a different personality, and also the baby of a 3 child household (the eldest is a big brother), and that approach doesn’t work. Mom just hasn’t figured out how to parent the littlest. She needs a different approach, and no doubt the BFF-factor between mom and older sister isn’t helping.*
In any case, my approach in lessons has been to ignore Susie’s foolishness, unless it is something dangerous or unkind to the horse, and to make sure to recognize and praise good behaviour, effort, and any affection she shows to the horses. For example, last lesson when she pouted and sulked and didn’t want to participate in our mounted exercises, I just said “well, I bet you’re going to get cold just sitting there!” and then turned to the other girls to get them started. Sure enough, after a few minutes of sitting with a sour look on her face, she started joining in and having fun, and then she got a “great job!” from me, and managed to get the fastest time for her around the world, which she was really happy about. At another point in the lesson, she couldn’t get her pony to stop cutting the corner, and she absolutely yanked on the poor thing’s mouth while booting her in the ribs and yelling. That got a very stern talking to and a warning that if she did it again she would have to dismount, and stand in the centre of the arena holding the pony until the lesson was over, and then go in with the other girls and take care of her after. She wasn’t happy, but she smartened up.
All in all, I think the “ignore foolishness, reward effort, and be clear with consequences for poor behaviour” approach is going to make it bearable. I also told mom that I would have her dismount and wait if she had any kind of big outburst that was taken out on the pony, and thankfully mom was ok with the plan. I can’t say it’s my favourite lesson of the day, but c’est la vie!
(*I know I am armchair quarterbacking HARD when it comes to the whole parenting thing. I don’t have kids, my insight is worth precisely what anyone paid for it. Which is a big fat goose egg. It’s just spidey sense, nothing more :))
