I’m well aware not to breed Overo to Overo…or you may get Lethal white.
Sabino is “related” to Overo from what I’ve been told.
Should one worry about breeding a sabino to a sabino??
What if one were homozygous for sabino??.is it a problem? It isn’t a dominent gene, is it???
Perfectly fine 
Homozygous Sabino1 (“they” suspect there are multiple Sabino genes) produces a 95%+ white horse. But, there are no health issues associated with it.
Sabino is sort of dominant. It may or may not express.
Sabino is one of the Overo genes. Hang on while I get on a little soapbox here :lol:
APHA has “ruined” the word “Overo”, because they use it for everything not-Tobiano. That IS what it is - not Tobiano. But there is Splash, Sabino, Frame, and Dominant White.
Frame is the ONLY gene that produces a Lethal White foal in the homozygous state. However, according to APHA, and therefore far too many of its followers, Frame is synonymous with Overo. So, you will hear people saying “don’t breed 2 Overos together, you might get a Lethal foal” :rolleyes:
That is ONLY true is both parents are Frame carriers, regardless of how they look, regardless of what other patterns they carry.
If at least 1 parent is not positive for Frame/LWO, there is zero chance of a Lethal foal.
stepping down
So yes, you are safe breeding Sabino to Sabino. Just make SURE at least 1 horse is not Frame if there is any possibility either could be a carrier. Frame does exist in TBs, though the lines are very limited, and it exists in QH’s (more widespread than TBs) so it’s not just limited to Paints.
that about covers it!
[QUOTE=florida foxhunter;5544816]
I’m well aware not to breed Overo to Overo…or you may get Lethal white.
Sabino is “related” to Overo from what I’ve been told.
Should one worry about breeding a sabino to a sabino??
What if one were homozygous for sabino??.is it a problem? It isn’t a dominent gene, is it???[/QUOTE]
JB got it.
“Overo” is a catch-all word meaning not solid and not tobiano. According to APHA there are three “overo” patterns…sabino, splash white and frame (they don’t even address dominant white). The only one that produces lethal white foals is the frame gene and there is a test for it…OLWS test. As long as one of a pair of horses is negative for OLWS you can’t get a lethal white foal. HOWEVER…frame (OLWS) gene doesn’t always show itself so having a horse with what appears to be “just” sabino or “just” splash white or even a solid (including TB’s and QH’s without any apparent Paint background) does NOT mean that the frame gene cannot be there. It’s a simple test (hair) and not expensive and is good insurance for avoiding a lost foal. Sabino to sabino should be fine (and may well get you a foal that is nearly or even completely white so be prepared for someone to suggest putting it down immediately if that were to happen)…but if they aren’t tested get at least one of them done…preferably both.
Just a wee correction - the horse could actually be totally solid and be a Frame or Splash, possibly even Sabino carrier
However, according to the APHA (grrrrr) that solid horse would never be classified as Overo. They are purely a phenotype registry (when it comes to color), and even then they make up their own rules :mad:
[QUOTE=JB;5545615]
Just a wee correction - the horse could actually be totally solid and be a Frame or Splash, possibly even Sabino carrier
However, according to the APHA (grrrrr) that solid horse would never be classified as Overo. They are purely a phenotype registry (when it comes to color), and even then they make up their own rules :mad:[/QUOTE]
“HOWEVER…frame (OLWS) gene doesn’t always show itself so having a horse with what appears to be “just” sabino or “just” splash white or even a solid (including TB’s and QH’s without any apparent Paint background) does NOT mean that the frame gene cannot be there.”
Yep…those solids surely can and do in some cases carry any one or more than one of the “overo” genes. These are where those “cropouts” came from to begin with.
APHA and I go around and around all the time. I think they devalue many of the foals each year…by calling a horse a “solid” that really is not. One of my mares for instance is a very minimal splash white…4 socks, small star, long skinny rectangular snip and one partial blue eye…three of her six foals have had splash white characteristics (two of them in combo with tobiano and one that may or may not get regular registration papers…stockings, star, BIG triangular snip, roan belly spot which may or may not have white skin, and one blue eye…clearly a splash but maybe not enough for regular registration) but is registered as a “solid Paint bred”. “Solid” Paints have much less market value (personally I love picking up well bred minimals and breeding to a tobi and getting a higher than 50% color result…and now that I have a very well bred HZ tobiano I’ll pick up all the solid mares with pedigrees and conformation and disposition that meet my criteria that I can afford to buy and support) and it annoys me no end that great pedigrees and really nice conformation count for less than a 2 inch spot of white.
APHA claims it is a bloodline breed “with color requirements”…but acts like a color breed…in which case you may as well go with Pinto…less expensive, more fun at the shows, apparently less politics and friendlier toward the solids or minimals.
The only “risk” you might run is an increased likelihood of ending up with a max sabino. That may or may not be an issue. Just depends on how much white you want to have to keep clean!
Going back to JB’s first comment about there being more than one Sabino gene, I had one of my fillies tested for Sabino1 last month and she was n/n. Her mother is a hano and her father is a TB. Here is a link to a picture of her (I hope it works):
[URL=“http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=338594747257&set=a.338590022257.154220.609767257&type=1&theater”]
When I commented on another board that I was surprised at her test results because from looking at her I was sure she was sabino, I learned that TBs and warmbloods test negative for Sabino1.
I read somewhere that there was some testing done on dominant white horses from the Puchilingui line that determined that the horses were in fact dominant white, so was that Sabino1 or another test? I am trying to figure out how to reconcile the dominant white testing with TBs testing negative for Sabino1.
TIA.
This link will work better
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=338594747257&set=a.338590022257.154%20220.609767257&type=1&theater
Hopefully it is set to public.
Cute filly!!!
Yes, TBs don’t test for Sabino1. I think Clydesdales don’t either. I think WBs would depend?
Dominant White is entirely separate from Sabino on all accounts. There are now 12 known testable genes for it, though nobody offers any public testing - too $$.
Thanks FI for fixing my link, and thanks JB for the confirmation and the compliment. Both her mom and dad have white, but my guess is that the four white feet came from the TB side. I sent in an agouti test and checked the sabino box out of curiosity and boy was I surprised.
So, if I were to breed her to a loud sabino/splash red-based horse would I have to worry about getting a white foal or are we too far removed from that?
Thanks again.
Sheila
When God described “paints” he didn’t specify “how much”!! Two loud sabino/overos can produce NO white as easily as pure white!!! We never bred Puchi’s Rambo to any “paints” - spotted or breeding stock or loud sabino mares. We only bred solid mares. One of our 100% producers is a solid black mare without one white hair. She had 7 loud babies in 7 breedings. Another of our mares has a blaze only and produced all sabino marked foals and two pure whites. Jagged Illusion was 100% color producer if you figure one for one! He produced a fabulous sabino/overo ISH filly when bred to a solid seal brown Irish Sport Horse mare with a teeny star. Go figure. I always view our foalings as a grab bag surprise!!
It’s like Forrest Gump and his box of chocolates…ya never know what you will get.
So far we have gotten these…(not all his foals…but a good sampling)
Sire of all is Wild By Design: bay minimal sabino marked overo TB by Puchi line white stallion Bright White:
mare #1: chestnut TB with low pointy socks and tiny belly spot = white TB filly
mare #2: chestnut sabino TB mare = chestnut foal with socks and blaze
mare #3: max white mare = chestnut filly w/ minimal sabino markings very borderline on being able to get APHA regualr papers (the high white on legs are right at the magic line)
mare #4: black mare that looks like minimal splash and maybe minimal sabino = white foal
mare #5: rabicano mare with 2 full siblings for foals: one is 50% white and one has 2 white hairs for a star
mare #6: solid bay TB mare = solid chestnut foal
mare #7: solid bay TB mare = solid bay foal
The white colt above is now a 4 YO. Last year he jumped the fence and bred hubbys black Appy mare. Fillly is pure white.
Has anyone had or seen or had a 95% white horse from a Sabino to Sabino cross?
The chances of a loud white foal are pretty slim. Sabino1 is known to produce that in the homozygous form, but the all-white TBs are DW, not Sabino.
So, this filly is obviously Splash and probably Sabino too. Breeding her to a loud stallion (is there one already in mind since you said red-based?) is truly going to be a crapshoot. However, if the stallion is well-known for putting lots of white on, you may get a lot more white than this filly.
But to complicate things further, these overo patterns are visually suppressed in black-based colors. Given the amount of white she displays, I feel certain she would have been a lot louder if she’d been red-based.
So, this means, if she is crossed with a louder red-based stallion, a red-based foal stands a pretty good chance at having lots of high whites and lots of face white. A black-based foal is most likely going to be less loud.
Do you have pictures of this filly’s parents (or just who they are)? Who is the red-based stallion?
Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but do you think that this stallion is Sabino?
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=88&L=2
To see RdS dam, scroll down to Albertina filly, which is a full sister filly to the stallion above and that is the stallion’s dam by the filly’s side
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=35&L=2#
This is RdS sire
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=30&L=2
The dam (Augustina) has small socks but has a lot of the black ermines (?) in her socks. But her son Roi du Soleil does not have the black ermines but does have much taller socks, especially for a dark bay.
FWIW, the full brother to the dam (Augustin OLD) has short socks with ermine too.
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=4&L=2
Splash for sure - pretty horizontal leg white, bottom-“heavy” face white, not to mention how it falls off the side of his nose. But the leg white has some jag to it, which is a likely indicator of Sabino as well.
To see RdS dam, scroll down to Albertina filly, which is a full sister filly to the stallion above and that is the stallions dam by the filly’s side
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=35&L=2#
Also quite Splash (horizontal nature to the socks) and probably also Sabino (some jaggedness to the markings)
This is RdS sire
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=30&L=2
Very minimal Splash - horizontal nature to the LF white
The dam (Augustina) has small socks but has a lot of the black ermines (?) in her socks. But her son Roi du Soleil does not have the black ermines but does have much taller socks, especially for a dark bay.
FWIW, the full brother to the dam (Augustin OLD) has short socks with ermine too.
http://vorwerk.equitaris.de/index.php?id=4&L=2
[/quote]
Ermines are thought to be signs of white suppression, and that fits this scenario very well Ermines and lower socks, no ermines and taller socks 
FWIW, I think if the genetics are there to produce a red-based foal from this sire and dam, that horse would have much more white than the dark parents. Black-based colors tend to suppress white expression
He looks to be more splash to me than sabino. The way his nose white falls to one side is a trait. Also his socks have the more level, “dipped in white” splash appearance as opposed to the jagged topped sabino type.
Take this sabino’s hind socks for example:
http://www.freewebs.com/azmtnhorse/Jane's%20Sabino%20Gelding.jpg
The ermines on the stallion’s ancestors are evidence of a white suppressor at work. Very common on black-based horses that exhibit a white pattern gene. Red-based horses tend to show white markings much more prevalently.
With that being said, I wouldn’t count sabino out for the stallion. His hind socks do appear to be somewhat “sabino-ish.”
With him being black based/evidence of a white suppressor at work it makes it difficult to discern. If I had to bet I would say splash for certain, with a possibility of sabino.
Yeah, what JB said LOL!
