Sad situation--anyone have any answers? Last attempt to seek the cumulative knowledge of the hive

[beowulf]

@GraceLikeRain

My guess would be in all three he had a few rabbits going already (Warwick Schiller). If so, then the question is can whoever handles him accurately identify it and deescalate the behavior before he blows his lid.

I wondered this also, it sounds like a both/and just as you said, impossible for us on the internet to know with certainty one way or another without seeing the horse in person. I trust OP’s judgment though.

On the topic of rabbits and young horses, they sometimes don’t give the same cues or obvious signs of nearing their limit an older or more experienced horse would give. Things are okay until they’re not.

Many catch-riders riders are too cavalier those first few minutes of mounting on young horses, and it can catch someone unaware by surprise.

[Xctrygirl]

Just as an aside, the cost of a full neuro workup at UPenn is not anywhere close to $15k.

You can call me at work for more info if you’d like. (610-925-6111) I’m the one who schedules the neuro cases. (Among a lot of other things )

Emily

[Nootka]

Just a random thought because everyone has covered everything else but have you thought about testing for PSSM1 (maybe 2 but it would have to be the muscle test).

[RooTheDay]

@Xctrygirl

Just as an aside, the cost of a full neuro workup at UPenn is not anywhere close to $15k.

Can confirm both that a full neuro at Penn is way less than $15K and also that @Xctrygirl is an incredibly nice, kind, high-quality human.

I did the full monty on my neuro mare (including a myelogram and CT) and it was around $5K. Most of that was the myelogram and CT. A clinical exam is much less.

More broadly, to OP… I gotta say, this does sound a lot like EDM, and he’s the right age and the right background. As you know, because you’ve already had one. I’m so, so sorry, and I very much hope that I’m wrong.

[Xctrygirl]

Awwww thanks @RooTheDay

You’re very kind and I remain sorry that you had to talk to me for those reasons. I’m always happy to chat and being kind to my clients is SO important. They’re always dealing with a rough draw in life.

Em

[Trekkie]

@beowulf

Not discrediting the suggestion to rule out pain, which is always a good thing to do when there are behavioral changes and/or misbehaviors. I don’t think it’s a bad idea in OP’s shoes to reassess if this is the right horse for her at this time - doesn’t matter how brilliant of a rider one is, sometimes things are just not the right fit for whatever reason, better to move along the horse before a party gets hurt. Trust your gut, you know the horse better than those of us behind a keyboard.

Pain has been ruled out. The horse has not been ridden by me in 8 months and was already for sale as I stated in my original post. I am not going to sell him now and he will not be placed in a riding environment ever again. I may put him down. I am not willing to go through an entire work up neurologically as it would not change what I would do going forward. I spoke with @Xctrygirl and she was very kind and helpful but the path forward for this horse will be simple and either a non-riding retirement or euthanasia. I very much appreciate everyone’s support and input, here and IRL. Horses are difficult sometimes and this is one of those times. I do not want to put anyone else in danger of injury and I don’t want this horse to end up in a bad situation. There are plenty of things worse than death for horses.

[bingbingbing]

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. You obviously care. And will do what is best and safest.

I honestly wouldn’t donate a horse to a university without an agreeable contract. I can elaborate why if you are interested.

[OverandOnward]

One reason is that when a university no longer needs a horse, many unis send them to auction. Some are required to do so by written policy.

This is true of a lot of different kinds of programs.

Programs are rarely equipped to care for horses for life.

[akhunterrider]

Our local university will take donation horses I believe every September. They use them for research and testing. At the end of the process they are humanely euthanized.

[Xctrygirl]

This is exactly why there are people who have the job of taking donations for universities and discussing all the polices that go along with donating and disseminating the donation contracts and going over all the terms BEFORE you ever send a horse in.

I know… I donated one of my own to a living program. He did end up getting hurt and had to be put down, but there too I had a lot of conversations and transparency.

Em

[4horses]

Any possibility he could have gastric ulcers? One thing I have noticed with ulcers is unpredictable spookiness. My young horse was terribly spooky. So bad I was questioning why I bought her, until she colicked and I found out she had really bad ulcers and likely had them before I bought her. Her behavior all along was pain related- it just manifested as random spookiness. That is at least an easy thing to rule out.

[Trekkie]

He is not particularly spooky.

[BeeHoney]

I’m sorry you are going through this. I know that everyone always wants to find the hidden reason and some kind of “fix it” solution. Ultimately I’m not sure it matters. The horse isn’t safe the way he is now and I don’t think it’s worth risking serious injury (of yourself or anyone else) to test out whether or not any possible “solution” has worked.

The unpredictable nature of the behavior adds to the danger. A horse that has a consistent quirk can be managed. I once had a rearer that I considered “safe” because his triggers for rearing were predictable, he always gave some warning before doing it, and the behavior could be avoided by following a simple routine. On the other hand, a horse that has a surprise behavior like a bronc worthy bucking fit 1% of the time with no warning or identifiable trigger is extremely dangerous.

FWIW, I relate to your post on a personal level. I imported a gorgeous young horse some years back. She was raised with ideal handling and training and had excellent ground manners. Her early training was with skilled professionals and no corners were cut, but when I took over the ride (and I have started and trained more young horses than I can recount) she started out lovely–relaxed, attentive, steady…and then wham, out of nowhere a nasty bucking fit. It didn’t make sense, but I assumed there was a hole in her training that we would figure out. Extensive vet work revealed nothing.

Three different trainers tried to work with her, all three with a ton of experience, the second one a pretty tough cowboy, and I ended up giving (for free) the horse to the third trainer, another extremely experienced person with all the facilities for a tough horse. They all had the same experience–a horse that was reasonable and lovely, until out of the blue she turned into a bronc. I strongly regret giving the horse away. I knew she was dangerous and I should have euthanized her myself instead of putting someone else at risk. The third trainer sustained a fall that could have been devastating. At that point she called me up and we both agreed the horse should be euthanized, recognizing there was no safe way to re-home her, someone would always be thinking they could ride her and she was just too dangerous.

I think it is hard to re-home a horse in a manner that can guarantee that a horse will never be ridden. I’m skeptical about donating to a university program despite @Xctrygirl 's experience. All it would take is some staff turnover for you to potentially lose track of the situation. Universities do send horses to auction, and I think that communication with a program can be quite variable.

[Simkie]

@Trekkie

They were not done in a clinic but the vet who did the ppe said it was the most pristine back he had ever seen.

Has anyone else reviewed the images? Just because one person says they’re clean doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the case.

Send the images you have out for review by a boarded radiologist, who can not only assess what they show, but the quality of them. An overread is usually really inexpensive, too.

Asking for a second opinion isn’t a vote of no confidence in the initial provider. Medicine really should be a team sport. Two expert opinions saying the same thing carries more weight, and if the opinion differs, that could give you a place to start.

[Montanas_Girl]

@BeeHoney

I’m sorry you are going through this. I know that everyone always wants to find the hidden reason and some kind of “fix it” solution. Ultimately I’m not sure it matters. The horse isn’t safe the way he is now and I don’t think it’s worth risking serious injury (of yourself or anyone else) to test out whether or not any possible “solution” has worked.

This is a very important point and post.

There is a difference between normal young horse quirkiness and dangerously explosive behavior. This horse, whatever his reason, is exhibiting the latter, and the OP is choosing the responsible path of doing everything she can to make sure the horse doesn’t have the opportunity to endanger any other riders.

OP, I’m so sorry you are going through this. I hope you are able to find a happier, kinder, more suitable animal for your next mount. ((hugs))

[BeeHoney]

@Simkie what would this change? I can’t speak for the OP here, but I can say that if this were my situation, I would not be willing to pay for any kind of surgical intervention for a horse that has never been safely ridable (and with some red flags from his past).

Let’s say that the OP had the films reviewed, they found something, and then the OP paid for surgery. After the horse recovered, would the OP feel comfortable asking her trainer to test ride the horse to see if the dangerous behavior was fixed? Would the trainer consider getting back on? Would the OP ever be comfortable ever putting the horse back on the market to re-sell? If she did, what kind of price could she even ask given the horse’s history? Would she ever be comfortable riding the horse herself?

[Trekkie]

Thank you so much. I am lucky that I do have another very wonderful young horse to ride and have. I have had him for almost 2 years and he just gets better and better.

[Xctrygirl]

FWIW, the donation types are very rarely for horse to remain living.

At the point at which my horse was determined not to be able to stay as a teaching horse, due to his injury, I was offered the chance to reclaim him as my own. Or agree to euthanasia. I agreed to euth.

He was NEVER going anywhere else. It was only back to me or deceased.

I can only speak to my experiences, but these are VERY easy questions to ask and put into writing so both sides agree.

Contracts are a big deal at universities.

Em

[Simkie]

@BeeHoney

@Simkie what would this change? I can’t speak for the OP here, but I can say that if this were my situation, I would not be willing to pay for any kind of surgical intervention for a horse that has never been safely ridable (and with some red flags from his past).

Let’s say that the OP had the films reviewed, they found something, and then the OP paid for surgery. After the horse recovered, would the OP feel comfortable asking her trainer to test ride the horse to see if the dangerous behavior was fixed? Would the trainer consider getting back on? Would the OP ever be comfortable ever putting the horse back on the market to re-sell? If she did, what kind of price could she even ask given the horse’s history? Would she ever be comfortable riding the horse herself?

A lot of people treat kissing spine or other radiographic findings and their horses go on to have successful careers.

If the cause of the behavior can be identified and addressed, there’s no reason to think the horse will continue to be dangerous.

However, even if that’s not the outcome here, spending a couple hundred bucks to potentially get an answer is money well spent for many.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Simkie

However, even if that’s not the outcome here, spending a couple hundred bucks to potentially get an answer is money well spent for many.

And then what?

I don’t intend this question to be as aggressive as it probably sounds. But, seriously…So the horse has an “excuse” - however genuine - for its current behavior. (a) Does the behavior correlate to the degree of physical signs and (b) Can we be sure the horse won’t revert to extreme behavior the next time it is mildly to severely impacted by some impairment or discomfort?