Sad situation--anyone have any answers? Last attempt to seek the cumulative knowledge of the hive

[4horses]

It would depend on the findings. We don’t have a diagnosis for what is wrong with the horse. It could be a muscle disease, EPM, Lyme disease, or any number of things. Some of those diseases can have a significant impact on the horse’s behavior, yet are treatable diseases. I think the owner is probably wise to turn the horse out with time off and see if anything shows up later down the road.

Alternatively a $1-2k vet workup to see if they find something is reasonable just so you don’t have to second guess that you may be euthanizing a healthy animal.

Donating the horse works too. Some universities need treadmill horses that just need to be capable of running on a treadmill and safe enough to handle on the ground. He might be perfectly fine for that.

I would probably want some x rays of his spine, and teeth as both can cause issues with explosive behavior under saddle and at least a basic neurological exam before I totally gave up on him. And maybe check vitamin E levels in case he came back deficit. It’s at least worth looking into.

I’m not suggesting she spend a ton of money on him, but I would at least attempt to get a vet exam and see if they have any ideas before taking his life.

[Simkie]

@Montanas_Girl

And then what?

The literal title on this thread is “anyone have any answers?”

Having another radiologist review the imaging is one possible path to answers. Answers as to why this horse is acting this way, answers as to what might be possible to correct the behavior, or answers as to why the behavior might not be correctable.

The OP has explored many avenues here, but apparently not the veterinary one. Presumably because the horse was recently vetted, and “passed.”

But one vet clearing the horse doesn’t always mean that the horse is clear. Having the imaging in hand reviewed is an inexpensive way to get more input.

This pushback to an imaging review is bizarre. If this horse hasn’t had a vet workup beyond the pre purchase, why would you NOT do something cheap and easy to see if there’s anything there, to aid in informing choices going forward?

[Trekkie]

Multiple vets have had hands and eyes on the horse since the PPE. They do not feel the problem is a physical one. If the horse does have KS by chance and the PPE x-rays were misread I would not pursue anything differently at this time.

[goodhors]

Sorry to hear the likely diagnosis. You have done everything right, no fixing some things. I applaud your decision choices, which ever one happens. I agree, no passing him on as a riding horse to hurt someone later. The euthanasia choice would be mine as well. Some folks have a hard time with that choice, but the good owner sometimes has to do what is best for the HORSE.

[CBoylen]

Sounds like most of the blow ups (only 3 blow ups in a year or are these just the examples?) were within minutes of getting on? That’s not really an unusual quirk. Now, whether it’s a physical issue that’s just not definable to current science or whatever, no one will know until it is. But it’s common enough in horses that you can say “sometimes he’s cold-backed and dumps you”, and most people are going to nod and ask “how often is sometimes?”. If you can honestly say it was 8 months between incidents and he’s a decent horse otherwise, there’s a fair percentage of people that won’t care. There’s plenty of these horses that go on to long careers and people just manage them.

[4horses]

I sort of have to agree with this. Horses sometimes do blow up for unexpected reasons. I almost bought a grey and white spotted saddle horse. He was owned by a friend of mine and we even set a date for me to try the horse. Suddenly, friend back peddled and sold the horse to someone else in our riding circle. The new owner took the horse out to one of our group camping trips and the horse bucked him right off within moments of getting on. I’m assuming the horse was reasonably well behaved the rest of the time, as he continued to ride the horse despite that incident. I still wonder what would have happened if I had bought that horse…

When I was a teenager I was free leasing a horse who was a bit loose in the marbles. That horse would be going along just fine, and randomly pull the biggest stunt he could think of. I think, in his case, it was a mental quirk. That was who he was and there was no changing it. He reared with my instructor straight up at a horse show. He could rear, buck, spin, bolt etc… Usually with little provocation. He did have a tell- I could look at his face and he would get a look in his eye, right before pulling a stunt. I will say, he never managed to unseat me, not that he didn’t try! He did a spin bolt one day and promptly got my friend tossed off her horse, but I managed to stick with him. By the end of summer, I was tired of dealing with him and sent him home. Not that I didn’t like him, but his mother was a far more reliable horse! And she was so much fun to ride- I’ve never met a horse that could gait like her.

The person who bought him was a young lady who exercised racehorses, and he dumped her on their first ride together. Despite all that, she kept him his entire life until he passed away. I’m not sure he was a horse I would have wanted to own, but he clearly matched with the right person. His name was Buck, although I believe he was actually named after Buck (the horse in Bonanza). He was young enough that with time and experience he may have improved. I think he was about 4 yrs old when I had him.

I just don’t know that I would jump to euthanasia in this case. It seems a bit extreme to me, at least not without evidence something is medically wrong with the horse. 8 months isn’t really that much time under saddle.

[stargzng386]

I have a similar horse but he’s retired. I know his physical problem and for him any discomfort makes him all 4 ft off the ground bronco buck until you’re off. It’s not a training issue he’s a sweetheart it’s 100% pain response. I would never rehome because he appears serviceably sound is cute and he would just constantly get passed on when his broncing comes out. Or a really strong cowboy could break him mentally and physically trying to ride out the buck. I wouldn’t judge you if you euthanized it’s a big financial and emotional drain.

[colorfan]

I am sorry you are having to deal with this. I just want to say thank you for not passing him off on someone as a cheap project. Ethics are cold comfort but there you are.

[Trekkie]

@Amberley

My guess is that this is a herd bond young horse who does not deal well with change to his routine. And who has scared a few people and gotten away with it. If the pro is happy to keep riding him I’d let them do it. If he’s that athletic he’ll find a home.

He is not herd bound in the slightest. He is very easy in every other way. And while in my possession has not gotten away with anything. Unfortunately this is out of the blue and very dangerous behavior. No it does not happen often but when it does he wants to unload his rider. He is fine and absolutely calm before and after. Perhaps it also happened before I got him and he got away with it then. Who knows, horses can’t talk. Full training board costs a ton of money. Extensive work ups for any and every possible ailment that probably are not the issue also cost money. I am a working amateur supporting a herd already. I do not feel it is fair to the horse or a person “adopting” his issues as it is a huge gamble if they would be willing and able to deal with it. Then he may continue to get passed along. I do not have unlimited funds to support him going and doing and training indefinitely, especially with no sale prospect. This may sound harsh but it’s reality. I’m trying and have tried to do the best I can by the horse and everyone involved. I understand the internet has plenty of opinions but the horse has been in good hands and I will take comfort that nothing terrible will ever happen to him.
ETA he has been under saddle for a couple years but with only about 60 days cumulatively before I got him and then a solid year since I have had him with 8 months of that being in a full time professional program.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

If you do decide on euthanasia, perhaps the folks doing dissections will take him?

He sounds like a horse with an issue that might only be identifiable in the bones.

[vxf111]

He’s your horse and I’m not questioning your decision. But (and I say this kindly) what were you looking for in this thread if not people suggesting veterinary/training possibilities to explore? You asked whether anyone has any answers. If what you really wanted was validation that it’s ok to to retire/euthanize now that’s ok but that’s not how you framed this discussion so you can’t be annoyed when it’s not the question people are discussing.

[Trekkie]

Perhaps a discussion is a nice way to work through a very trying situation. I did not know what I was going to do when I started this thread. Now I do. So this has been extremely helpful. I am not annoyed. I am just aware that people have different perspectives.

[omare]

It seems to me, from what you shared, (and based on my sometimes bad reading comprehension), you did not think you can safely, (without financial risk or ethical risk to yourself) “place” him. I think you answered yourself. No one can invalidate that.

[Trekkie]

I work in a very high stakes area of healthcare. When we are faced with a difficult situation or case we usually will discuss the situation amongst ourselves and bounce ideas and thoughts off each other, validate our ideas and concerns, come up with a plan or alternative plan, and then debrief after. I suppose this thread was my way of doing the same thing amongst “experts” who are not personally involved with the horse, as sometimes it is harder to be objective when one is in the situation. I have a plan and an alternative plan now that I am happy and comfortable with. Even if what y’all did was validate my instincts it was valuable and appreciated. Sometimes in life there are no great answers, but the horse will come home soon and I will evaluate him and my situation going forward.

[dags]

And sometimes you just type things out, sleep on it, and wake up knowing the right answer. Best wishes to you @Trekkie, the world already has plenty of horses in questionable circumstances. It won’t miss this one.

[beowulf]

I agree with @vxf111 and @Simkie here, confused by the direction/tone the thread has taken versus the original title. It seemed like OP wanted crowdsourcing for ideas, but replies indicate otherwise.

OP, it is your horse, your money, your call. At the end of the day, you know him best.

I’ve spoken about my late horse on this forum before. Some of your OP sounds like him. His seventh year was his most trying year, but problems started when he was five. I took him through two very respected BNT programs over the span of two years (both are BNTs any eventer would know, so not small programs). Both refused to ride him. He would be great, until he wasn’t - and when he wasn’t, he didn’t just buck - he bolted into an uncontrollable gallop and when you got him back under control he bucked until you fell off. This was the first horse I got the Alpo speech on, from several professionals. I had every stone and rock overturned with this horse. His saddle was looked at by different respected fitters. Respected vets looked at him. He passed flexions. He never palped sore anywhere. By all accounts he was perfectly sound. He just kept getting worse. My circle of people I trusted told me this horse had behavioral problems and a screw loose and it was time to cut my losses. Trying to keep emotion out of this, but it was very demoralizing. The only one that didn’t give up on him was my mom.

All it took was one lameness specialist vet who was visiting the barn, to figure it all out. After the briefest soundness exam I’ve ever experienced, he ultrasounded and injected my horse’s SI, slapped him on the bum and said “that ought to do it. By the way, your saddle doesn’t fit”. And even though it’d been fitted professionally, he was completely right - it fit on paper but my horse didn’t like it. I had my horse back and he never bolted or bucked again. It really was one physical thing that dozens of trusted, good people in my circle missed. Including me. And it was something so small and preventable that almost had him in the behavorial-euthanasia camp.

I’m not sharing this to make you feel bad OP or discredit your decision, just things in your OP reminded me of my late guy and I figured I owed it to his memory to share. If it helps even one horse out there from someone reading this, great.

[TwoStrides]

I agree that 3 incidents in 8 months to me isn’t out of the bounds of normal behavior for some young/green horses. The two incidents that you could not find/see a trigger for yes are concerning. The other one it sounds like did have a trigger with your husband working in the shed. I know you said he had walked past it fine already but, that doesn’t mean much, especially if he saw it out of his other eye.

I had a client who owned a very nice WB hunter with a MASSIVE buck in him. He got me off with it once, and his junior rider as well once or twice. We eventually figured out his triggers (which weren’t immediately apparent) and how to manage him and he is an absolute packer saint for that kid. But it is something that will always be there, so we manage it very carefully. I’m sure your trainer is great and you sound very confident in their abilities, I am not at all trying to suggest they aren’t doing a good job, but sometimes even just a change of scenery or fresh eyes/ideas can help in a situation like this.

Perhaps there is a pro who specializes in problem horses somewhere who would take him from you with the agreement that he is to go back to you if they can’t fix him, at which point maybe you’d donate/euthanize. I admire your desire to not pass the buck and not wanting the horse to get passed further along (which are both very valid concerns) but if the horse has a chance at life somewhere, I think that is worth at least looking into. Wish you the best of luck.

[ProfessionalAmateur]

Another one chiming in on the full UPenn workup being closer to $5k, is worth every penny, and that this horse sounds very much like my EDM horse. @Xctrygirl is terrific to work with while dealing with a very scary potential dx, and Dr. Johnson is an amazing person.

I too hope that I’m wrong, and that if you do go the full workup route that it gets you some answers - even if just ruling out some big “maybes”.

[Trekkie]

The best update–I have a good friend who is building her own place to house her horse and she was going to get a couple donkeys or minis to keep him company. She is going to take my horse as a long term companion. He will be close to me and in trusted hands and serving a purpose. I am so happy and relieved. It a as much of a win win as I could have ever hoped for.

[BeeHoney]

@Trekkie that’s great news.

I have a lot of respect for the spidey-sense of an experienced horse person. To me it’s less about the type of behavior (rearing/bucking) and the exact number of incidents. It’s about the lack of warning, and the lack of connection to an identifiable trigger. Although, I will say that I would consider it a red flag if I ever had a young horse come through my barn that caused three serious/dramatic rider falls in 8 months.

@beowulf it’s always wonderful when a story has a happy ending. Still, your situation was different–the only reason it worked was because you were personally willing to take the risk to ride the horse. Your coaches were not and probably it would not have been ethical to send the horse off to another person. Your situation would have been more difficult to solve if you had not been willing to take a risk with your own safety. I think it is a fantastic point though that the horse has the ultimate say on saddle fit and has the right to disagree with any saddle fitter, and that it is wise to test out different saddles if you have any doubts.

I appreciate you admitting how demoralized you felt, and how you tried to keep emotion out of the decision. I think that’s a huge part of these type of struggles. Feeling like you’ve failed a horse is a pretty bad feeling and it’s hard to set that aside. It’s hard to weigh wanting to do right by a horse and feel that you gave it every chance and turned over every stone–versus not wanting to risk a person getting hurt in the process, and/or needing to be realistic about financial and practical limitations.