Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[spurgirl]

The place is very dumpy looking, and needs some serious clean up. That right there is usually enough to piss neighbors off, and start calls to AC.

I would look into the reason why the horses had no water. Not good at all… Where is the pet sitter…No emergency numbers posted anywhere? Why was PP not called IMMEDIATELY by AC? Strange. Whenever I go away-as much as 13 days at a time, I have a farm sitter, with a backup sitter, and all phone numbers prominently displayed in the barn/house. Sitters, my cell, hotel/campground #, other horse folk, the vet, farrier, etc…

That being said, none of the horses look bad off. All my horses are in good flesh, with a hint of rib showing. Some around here think they are a little “thin”, yet I’ve never had a founder, nor a colic, in one of my horses, who are out 24/7, in most conditions, for 20 years…(knock on wood!!). We Americans are notorious for overfeeding our animals, and killing with kindness-as in obese animals.

The neighbors? The woman- “I’ve seen the horses out with no blankets”-OMG:confused:!!!

“I’ve seen the horses with icicles in their manes”-OMG!!!

The man with the daughter-“The horses should be out and free”-WTF? Free, like where? Out on the plains? In the woods of Maine? Give me a break!!!

Best of luck to PP. I think she’s going to need it.:no:

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;5147059]
I think the issue is the previous charges against her, the lack of electricity on the properly, the lack of shelter, and the lack of water. I don’t have any problem with horses on field board just eating grass, but do they not have water?

Has a farm sitter or friend not come forward with her contact information and the info of the sitter? I would think someone in the area that knew her would have contacted the authorities and given them her information.

It’s possible it’s a state law that horses must be provided with a three sided shelter, and it’s also possible animal control doesn’t consider the electric fencing safe and suitable if there is no electricity.

If she had arranged things with a sitter, then she will have all that information with her and everything will be ironed out.[/QUOTE]

Previous charges mean nothing. As already previously stated, they are likely the result of an escape-artist-filly who got out onto the road one day (ETA: or ‘inadequate shelter’ which may or may not have been). I know of several horses (one of mine included) who have managed to unlock doors or jump 3-4’ fences or even cattle guards to graze on the other side. We have no idea of the story concerning these previous charges nor do we have any idea of the current situation, other than what we have been fed by the media.

These things may not be ironed out so easily. Just because she had arranged things with a sitter and has proof of her innocence, I have seen similar situations take years and tens of thousands of dollars to iron out. You might be in the right, but you have to prove it first, and you have to fight the all-powerful SPCA/HSUS/etc first.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5147063]
I am going to be the voice of dissent here.

1. This didn’t happen “suddenly”. AC did not act “quickly” in this case. They claim to have been investigating this situation for at least a year, and have her on record since 2008. She was cited for loose dogs in '08, and cited for animal cruelty in '10. Animal cruelty is not “loose horses”. It is not “neglect”. It is animal cruelty.

2. PP left the horses for two weeks with a few round bales (adequate feed) under the supervision of a farm sitter that was to visit once per day. Let us all recall the same scenario in Devorah Aikman, who’s still being thrown under the bus on this very forum. According to her, farm sitter was to blame for the state of the horses. INEXCUSABLE. If you leave for any length of time, you are still responsible for the state of your animals upon return. There are a lot of terrible anecdotes being recited about horrible situations in which farm owners were arguably not responsible for the state of their animals when they came home from a vacation. But these anecdotes concern 2 or 3 day “getaways”. Fortunately, horses don’t die of neglect in 2 or 3 days. They absolutely can and do after 2 weeks without water.

3. Stop blaming the neighbors. You don’t know their side, either. We’ve all seen pictures of this property. The neighbors say the horses have been loose in their yard on several occasions. PP was cited in ‘08 for loose dogs. Loose livestock is NOT the neighbors’ problem. It’s PP’s problem- her fencing is inadequate. There are countless posts on this board lamenting the subject of inadequate animal containment. SSS is typically the suggested solution to loose dogs. Calling AC repeatedly is typically the suggested solution to loose horses. So blame the neighbors for doing you all one nicer and calling AC on the dogs back in the day. And for giving the horses apples instead of chasing them out on the road when they were found in the yard. Those assholes…

4. PP has a history of posting about her self-approach to vet and farrier care. This works for some people, but if AC has been involved in her operation for the past 2 years, her lack of professional care for her horses very well may be a factor in their case.

5. I will, once again remind you (or inform you) all of the fact that I was the owner of “inadequate fencing” just once month ago. My horse escaped his 4 board, electric reinforced, several acre large enclosure and headed for the road. He was hit by a car, and injured severely enough to be dispatched by officers at the scene. Despite totaling her car, and suffering pretty severe emotional trauma, the woman that hit him was otherwise uninjured. But guess whose fault it was? MINE. I failed to adequately contain my horse. He had lived on my property for 9 years, was 25 years old, and had NEVER gotten out, yet the ONE time he escaped, he caused a serious accident on a remote country road. He died. The woman that hit him was traumatized. Lots of people got “hurt”.

PP may mean very well by the horses she owns. She may “not be crazy”. But she’s obviously made some irresponsible decisions that beg serious consideration on behalf of the people the support her on these boards. Bottom line is, she has had problems that led to citations and fines in the past, and she made the decision to leave her horses with inadequate care while she was gone.

It may be time for her to re-evaluate her set-up if she intends to get these horses back.[/QUOTE]

1. Careful. Animal cruelty can also mean ‘ear mites’. Ask me how I know.

2. Due to the nature of my current work, I have to leave all my horses and animals for approx. two weeks at a time (at this time). I have to cross my fingers that the individuals I choose to care for my animals are responsible and that my animals are ok. However sometimes sh!t happens. Place yourself in her shoes - sometimes you can do your best possible yet things still go awry. Btdt.

3. The neighbours might entirely have valid points, however they also might not. Honestly, assessing the video provided from the comfort of my chair, I did not find her property perfect but it did not seem to be in any state of neglect or to be abhorrent.

4. I also do not call the vet or farrier immediately - I will usually hold off and self-treat unless the injury/illness progresses or I deem it serious and beyond my scope. I see no harm in said practises - all my animals are well cared for.

5. Fencing my very well need to be evaluated if loose horses are the norm. However I hardly see how that should warrant seizure of her horses or harsh criticism from COTH posters.

Again - I reserve judgment because I have seen the ‘other side’ of an individual wrongly singled out by the SPCA.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=doccer;5147154]
just reading thru this thread… started off as the regular, oh how horrid it is to see animals not taken care of…

and in a heartbeat, since people know pintopiaffe on this board… its innocent until proven guilty?? [/QUOTE]

Exactly - why wasn’t judgment reserved, regardless of whether or not this person was known??!

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=spurgirl;5147452]
No emergency numbers posted anywhere? Why was PP not called IMMEDIATELY by AC? Strange. Whenever I go away-as much as 13 days at a time, I have a farm sitter, with a backup sitter, and all phone numbers prominently displayed in the barn/house. Sitters, my cell, hotel/campground #, other horse folk, the vet, farrier, etc…[/QUOTE]

This is something I’ve not thought to do before. I think I will put this on my to-do list, to have up permanently all the time, not just if I’m planning to be away. Needs to be permanent enough to last a while, but changeable when the info changes.

I usually leave that info for a sitter on a piece of paper, but it would be in a feed bin or tack trunk, not posted.

I’m certainly not prepared for the possibility of being splattered out on the highway.

[appyoverfences]

Been a lurker for years but need to just state some facts…

I have to agree with Thomas… I have been to her place as we “fell” for her ads for her horses and she talked a good line. we made the long drive and what you see in the videos is the way it is. This is just what I saw and my feelings about the place…

The horses do not go out back in the pasture as they always get out, they mostly live in that round pen, the dogs were unkempt and well I want to say yucky. The horses are thin not skinny, they are basically back yard ponies so are also very unkempt and yes I can say neglected looking.

The whole place is a pretty dangerous set up with just stuff all over, the long standing joke we have had for years is that there was a dead person under the coach as that is truly how it smelled inside, decomposing flesh, we could not get out of there fast enough and tried very hard not to touch the horses due to possible contamination of our own. So it was a change clothes and wash well type of visit.

PP was very nice , just a super nice Mainer that is proud of her animals but some people have a blurred view of the world and what they have. I think Coth is her friend and it is sad to see someone loose a friendship even if it is by the internet.

There is something very wrong at her place and the horses were rightfully taken you can not see what long term thrush or other ailments they might have and maybe just maybe not having the animals will give her a chance to get her life together and clean up a bit, i am sure she is due for an easier winter than the past.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147219]
Sounds like you’re never going to cope with life, let alone the internet. If you haven’t come to appreciate that folks will offer opinion and that ordinarily the opinion is that neglecting animals is indefensible then I’m amazed. To jump to the conclusion that means people are like vultures and want it to happen is well… batty and bizarre![/QUOTE]

Add me to your list of people who will never cope then.

I do not understand the sheer cruelty of people sometimes - their propensity to jump to conclusions via their own judgement. Especially on the internet. Why does the ability to hide behind a computer screen cause so many individuals to regard personal attacks and a lack of compassion or empathy as okay?

Neglecting animals is typically indefensible. However it is not clear that is even the case here. As I mentioned before, I have a close family friend whose animals were seized for no other reason than their ex sought (unwarranted) vengeance (oh, and they were not the greatest housecleaners in the world, which did not leave the greatest impression with AC I assume). The SPCA clearly had their own agenda. Said person was also charged with animal cruelty (charges they will have to fight in 2011) because the SPCA saw said individual was going to win the case (rightfully) and wanted to prevent the seized animals from being returned to their rightful owner. Of course this individual will also win the animal cruelty charges (even the judges and vets admit the charges are bogus) however they still have to fight them. Nevermind that sometimes it is easiest to simply acquiesce to charges than to fight them (can’t say how many times I have personally done so in relation to driving infractions where I was not necessarily in the wrong). The above case is costing the owner tens of thousands of dollars and well over a year of their time. Not to mention the emotional and mental strain. The media, btw, has very kindly reported what the SPCA has directly spoon fed to them - false information. So not everything is always as it appears. Which is why I reserve judgment and can’t stand individuals such as yourself who will automatically pounce on an individual based on a media report. Since when does the media not skewer information to their benefit?

Whatever happened to walking a mile in another’s shoes, trying to understand their situation, and offering a helping hand as opposed to pushing them down?

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

HOW ON EARTH DOES A PREVIOUS CHARGE OF LOOSE HORSES MEAN NOTHING?!?! Not to mention the loose dogs??! Loose animals ON THE ROAD put peoples’ lives in danger. Ask me how I know.

This woman has been struggling for years, and has made no secret of it on these boards. She has been on hard times for a long, long time. Yet in spite of all that, someone here is selling her another horse. Someone else here GAVE her a lovely, lovely mare not too long ago for the very purpose of BREEDING IT (Waterspot) Someone there thinks its just fine that she’s got 2 grade stallions on that property wandering around with all those mares. WITH THAT FENCING. She speaks constantly of her “breeding program”, and has a sad story every year with lots of bleeding hearts offering comfort when her mares don’t get in foal. Remember last year when everyone was on the edge of their seats, praying with PP that the mare she “thought might be in foal” would pop one out? Remember how it was suggested she call the VET? We should all be thanking dog those mares weren’t in foal. That property is deplorable, and is absolutely, in NO WAY SET UP FOR FOALS.

Yea, lots of people have junk in the yard. Lots of people have crappy fences. That DOESN’T MAKE IT ALRIGHT. Period. “It’s not her fault!!! She hired a PET SITTER!!!”- WHAT?!! She hired a TERRIBLE pet sitter, then. And clearly, as the owner of those horses, left them with someone that couldn’t be trusted to look after them properly.

I’ll give her this: the horses aren’t starving, or in inexcusable body condition. That being said, quite a few of them look like they haven’t been touched in months (matts in the manes, etc).

To suggest, in light of her past here talking about breeding what are basically grade horses every.single.year., despite also not having the money for adequate fencing (Hey DayDreamBeliever, you ready to see that lovely little filly impregnated by one of those stallions??? Cuz with that fencing, it’s only a tiny, little matter of time. And how about knowing that little filly will have to raise that baby there, in that hazardous yard?) and upkeep of her property, that it’s wrong for anyone to consider there might be merit to these charges is beyond my understanding.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;5146873]
This as all that I could think of as well. Seems a lot easier to drag out a hose than to bring trucks and trailers and start spending time and $$.[/QUOTE]

But that doesn’t get them on TV … where they can raise more money.

[vacation1]

This sure got interesting. I’m always puzzled why online discussions split between the ones where regular contributors give their fellow regulars the benefit of the doubt, and the ones where they don’t. There never really seems to be much logic to which ones go which way. Also puzzling - why the big guns will come out when someone just tells a story (which is why I so rarely tell personal stories online anymore) amid cries of “Always two sides - what did YOU do?” but actual evidence of another side’s version seems to inspire people to circle the wagons and commiserate about the time they had the SPCA arrest them for using fly masks.

Not going to comment on the rest, as I haven’t followed PP’s WEG posts, and am no judge of horse condition. It does bother me that, if she does have poor fencing, she decided to spend money on a WEG trip rather than improving that.

[Thomas_1]

Frenchfry, Excellent posting

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=shanky;5147311]
In this instance, a vet was brought on-site. Maybe the vet is in on the conspiracy with the neighbors![/QUOTE]

You would be surprised at how easily vets can be controlled and paid off by groups such as the SPCA. Seen it before.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147508]
You would be surprised at how easily vets can be controlled and paid off by groups such as the SPCA. Seen it before.[/QUOTE]

The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy theory is alive and well and working!

I seriously wonder about some people’s experience and ability to form logical conclusion based on rationale!!!

[cowgirljenn]

I didn’t read all the messages - but read most of them. As someone who has been on seizures and helped with investigations, I am going to point out a few things:

1. Several people commented on the fact that people already want the horses and implied that might be a motivation to seize them. When we assist with a seizure that gets media attention, we have people immediately calling and wanting to adopt or foster “that yellow horse I saw on TV”. We also get people calling claiming to own the horses they saw on TV or trying to buy them. We’ve had people stop on the side of the road when we’re doing a seizure and try to get their hands on the horses already.

2. If the animals didn’t have water, that is a problem.

3. ACO (animal control officer or office) may have acted more quickly because they had an investigation going on already and she had previous issues.

4. I see claims that SPCAs and ACOs are only in this for the power, the glory, the money, the ‘high’, etc. And yes, I’ve met those people. Then on the other hand, we see people complaining that ACOs never act, are too slow, etc. The good ACOs have a hard balancing act. If they act too quickly, you suspect them of being in this for the wrong reasons. If they act too slowly, you scream they’re derelict in their duties. The ACOs/humane societies/rescues who do things poorly also make it hard for good ACOs to act on legit cases. Additionally, most ACOs are understaffed, underfunded and undereducated. And we don’t want to pay more taxes to provide the funds to educate, staff, equip. ACOs. When cities’ and counties’ budgets get cut, the ACO departments are the first places to feel the cuts.

NOW - on the side of the owner. I almost was in her position once. I had a farm-sitter who had done farm-sitting for me for six months to a year. I was to be gone for nearly two weeks. I had set everything up with her. I emailed her and called her a week before she was to start to confirm and got no response. I told myself that she had always shown up before and I was just being overly cautious. But then I panicked and hired someone else to come in. Which turns out to be good - because she never showed up. Two weeks later, I got an email from her wanting to know the exact dates for her to farm-sit. I admit that the email I sent back was not the nicest one I had ever written.

When I have someone new sitting for us, I start them off with short weekend trips. And I’ve had a friend drop by to check on my animals before when we were on longer trips… just to be on the safe side.

[Hobbs]

HOW ON EARTH DOES A PREVIOUS CHARGE OF LOOSE HORSES MEAN NOTHING?!?! Not to mention the loose dogs??! Loose animals ON THE ROAD put peoples’ lives in danger. Ask me how I know.

Totally agree. I have a friend in a wheelchair because of an irresponsible horse owner with multiple “loose horse infractions”. Wish AC had taken the horses away from that owner!

One of the media reports states that she has been without electricity for a year…is her fencing even electrified? I don’t know this person, so I can’t comment on the situation, but as someone who has been touched personally by the inadequate fencing/loose horse issue it really disturbs me how many people are so willing to dismiss the seriousness of it.

[naturalequus]

I haven’t thought to post emergency numbers either. I leave emergency numbers with the pet-sitter of course, but I do not post them on my fridge or such (good idea though!!).

If AC in the States is anything like the SPCA can be up here in the Great White North, well they do not make much of an effort to contact the owner. And they likely do not have the owner’s cell phone number or other emergency contact info. Based on the video showing the slip of paper taped to the gate, I am guessing AC protocol might be comparable to SPCA protocol in Canada. You receive one notice on your door (which may or may not blow off your door - or be removed by your ex so your pet-sitter never receives it and thus cannot warn you) prior to their making use of a (possibly illegal) warrant to seize your animals.

[horsefaerie]

French Fry I washed and conditioned mane on two horses yesterday and one came in the barn this morning with a witch’s knot. That is not the sign of neglect.

This is America and I thought Mainers were supposed to be supportive of each other. Long cold winters and all, yep.

Neighbors could have dumped the trough. They certainly didn’t fill it.

Wow, if you can seize someone’s property that easily we should all go horse shopping!

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=appyoverfences;5147492]
Been a lurker for years but need to just state some facts…

I have to agree with Thomas… I have been to her place as we “fell” for her ads for her horses and she talked a good line. we made the long drive and what you see in the videos is the way it is. This is just what I saw and my feelings about the place…

The horses do not go out back in the pasture as they always get out, they mostly live in that round pen, the dogs were unkempt and well I want to say yucky. The horses are thin not skinny, they are basically back yard ponies so are also very unkempt and yes I can say neglected looking.

The whole place is a pretty dangerous set up with just stuff all over, the long standing joke we have had for years is that there was a dead person under the coach as that is truly how it smelled inside, decomposing flesh, we could not get out of there fast enough and tried very hard not to touch the horses due to possible contamination of our own. So it was a change clothes and wash well type of visit.

PP was very nice , just a super nice Mainer that is proud of her animals but some people have a blurred view of the world and what they have. I think Coth is her friend and it is sad to see someone loose a friendship even if it is by the internet.

There is something very wrong at her place and the horses were rightfully taken you can not see what long term thrush or other ailments they might have and maybe just maybe not having the animals will give her a chance to get her life together and clean up a bit, i am sure she is due for an easier winter than the past.[/QUOTE]

Only two horses were shown in the roundpen, so how do we know that is where all the horses are kept all the time?

Albeit it was not pretty, the yard did not seem obviously unsafe (does she have a history of injuries to her horses attributable to said fencing and property?).

House-keeping is not a reason for animal seizure nor is it an accurate reflection of animal husbandry. Trust me. I have seen the exact situation you describe and though it is not how I would live and it does not lend a good impression, it also does not lend an accurate depiction of the person’s animal husbandry. The individuals I know who live as such take the best quality care possible of their animals.

[shanky]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147508]
You would be surprised at how easily vets can be controlled and paid off by groups such as the SPCA. Seen it before.[/QUOTE]

What on Earth would be the point of that is this situation? Why would they waste their money paying off a vet, only to be forced to spend more money to feed and care for these horses until they can rehome them or get them to the nearest Canadian slaughterhouse? These horses appear to be of ZERO value in monetary terms: Show horses these ain’t.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

@horsefaerie;5147533

French Fry I washed and conditioned mane on two horses yesterday and one came in the barn this morning with a witch’s knot. That is not the sign of neglect.

Fine, I’ll give you that. Though the state of that mane certainly caused me to raise my eyebrows. I’ve never had a field kept one look quite that bad.

How about that fencing? The grade stallions on that property with all those mares? The constant sob stories about financial hardship, paired with the annual “cross your fingers for me, I hope my mares are in foal, but I guess we’ll find out soon since I can’t call the vet to have them ultrasounded or palped!”? Seriously. That mare very well COULD have been in foal last year when everyone was throwing a penny in the fountain for PP. Can you imagine keeping a weanling on that property? And how about her buying the filly from DDB? And the nice mare she was given? In light of the property you’ve just seen in those photographs, you really think that’s a place where someone should be breeding any horses, much less grades?