Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[LavenderFarm]

This is all very sad on many levels. I hope there are CoTHers or others nearby who can pitch in and help PP. I can only imagine the emotional heartache she is going thru to start. But some cleanup, proper fencing, proper shelter, etc., do seem necessary (to me) to have horses back. Maybe someone can suggest that she geld the younger stallion (at least) and consider cutting down the numbers overall.

I know how fortunes and finances can change. Any of us could lose our income or develop a health issue. Without a nearby support group, it can be difficult to “see the forest for the trees” – especially when it comes to animals we love. It is something for all of us to consider – what would be the plan in such instances to put the welfare of the animals involved as the FIRST priority? Sometimes love means being able to say goodbye – whether a beloved horse or pet has reached that time or a spouse/SO is miserable in our company or we are overwhelmed with the physical/financial burdens of pet/horse ownership.

Times like this can be times to take stock. Things happen for a reason, but the reason is often not evident at the time.

I wish PP and the horses and pets a good outcome.

[Laurierace]

Nice going cowardly OP.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147544]
Only two horses were shown in the roundpen, so how do we know that is where all the horses are kept all the time?

Albeit it was not pretty, the yard did not seem obviously unsafe (does she have a history of injuries to her horses attributable to said fencing and property?).

House-keeping is not a reason for animal seizure nor is it an accurate reflection of animal husbandry. Trust me. I have seen the exact situation you describe and though it is not how I would live and it does not lend a good impression, it also does not lend an accurate depiction of the person’s animal husbandry. The individuals I know who live as such take the best quality care possible of their animals.[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? Do you READ these posts, or just assume you know what they’re saying without bothering? This poster has BEEN TO HER PROPERTY inquiring about a sales horse and INTERACTED IN REAL LIFE WITH PP. That’s how she knows the horses are kept in the roundpen. Probably because PP told her “I can’t let them out in that back field because they get out all the time. So I keep them in here”. She seems to be the only one on this thread that has actually been to this property in real life. What she claims to have seen is reflected in the videos and photos of the property.

Also, open your eyes, please. There are 3 horses in the roundpen in the video posted by Thomas.

[Thomas_1]

Another interesting posting by naturalequus. Why the heck are you giving appyoverfences a little lecture about different standards of horsecare!

For goodness sakes she said she’d been there and seen it for herself.

Aside from that I’ve got to say that it sounds like you’re in cloud cuckoo land! You seem to have an inability to disseminate facts and form logical conclusion!

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147544]
Only two horses were shown in the roundpen, so how do we know that is where all the horses are kept all the time?[/QUOTE]

Look again and use the fingers on your hand to count

http://www.wabi.tv/news/14726/horses...cted-in-denham

Albeit it was not pretty, the yard did not seem obviously unsafe (does she have a history of injuries to her horses attributable to said fencing and property?).
Why would that matter. The fencing is inadequate.

House-keeping is not a reason for animal seizure nor is it an accurate reflection of animal husbandry.
Read and listen to the reports again.

The horses were seized because the owner had abandoned them without food, water and shelter. There was quick action because the owner was known to the authorities already and has been the subject of previous conviction and with another pending in process plus has been the subject of a one year investigation.

[RacetrackReject]

Oy! I just hope this is all sorted out one way or the other before even more horrible speculation is put out there.
As I read it, the previous cruelty claim was for not having a shelter but it is entirely possible that I misread that.

On another note, FrenchFry, how is your other horse that was hit on the road? Getting better I hope.

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5147423]
There are some serious, very obvious problems that need to be fixed here, animal cruelty or not.[/QUOTE]

I agree. However we do need to provide some opportunity for PP to respond.

I admit that I am very surprised at the appearance of the farm - it is flat-out unattractive, junky and unappealing. However, I cannot say that the appearance of the farm alone is enough to say she’s a “bad owner”. That attribute would come from leaving for a period of time and not providing food and water for your horses - if that is, in fact, the case.

I want to believe this is a case of a horse-sitter gone wrong, but I admit with the issues of previous AC trouble, I am struggling to give PP the benefit of the doubt.

This brings back some horrible memories of a COTH poster years ago that did something that none of us wanted to believe, but we all learned it was very real. After that incident, I have learned to follow the facts - but my personality is very much geared towards giving the benefit of the doubt.

I hope we get some facts soon that help clear up this issue, as the facts currently present a confusing picture.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5147498]
HOW ON EARTH DOES A PREVIOUS CHARGE OF LOOSE HORSES MEAN NOTHING?!?! Not to mention the loose dogs??! Loose animals ON THE ROAD put peoples’ lives in danger. Ask me how I know.

This woman has been struggling for years, and has made no secret of it on these boards. She has been on hard times for a long, long time. Yet in spite of all that, someone here is selling her another horse. Someone else here GAVE her a lovely, lovely mare not too long ago for the very purpose of BREEDING IT (Waterspot) Someone there thinks its just fine that she’s got 2 grade stallions on that property wandering around with all those mares. WITH THAT FENCING. She speaks constantly of her “breeding program”, and has a sad story every year with lots of bleeding hearts offering comfort when her mares don’t get in foal. Remember last year when everyone was on the edge of their seats, praying with PP that the mare she “thought might be in foal” would pop one out? Remember how it was suggested she call the VET? We should all be thanking dog those mares weren’t in foal. That property is deplorable, and is absolutely, in NO WAY SET UP FOR FOALS.

Yea, lots of people have junk in the yard. Lots of people have crappy fences. That DOESN’T MAKE IT ALRIGHT. Period. “It’s not her fault!!! She hired a PET SITTER!!!”- WHAT?!! She hired a TERRIBLE pet sitter, then. And clearly, as the owner of those horses, left them with someone that couldn’t be trusted to look after them properly.

I’ll give her this: the horses aren’t starving, or in inexcusable body condition. That being said, quite a few of them look like they haven’t been touched in months (matts in the manes, etc).

To suggest, in light of her past here talking about breeding what are basically grade horses every.single.year., despite also not having the money for adequate fencing (Hey DayDreamBeliever, you ready to see that lovely little filly impregnated by one of those stallions??? Cuz with that fencing, it’s only a tiny, little matter of time. And how about knowing that little filly will have to raise that baby there, in that hazardous yard?) and upkeep of her property, that it’s wrong for anyone to consider there might be merit to these charges is beyond my understanding.[/QUOTE]

Because many of us have experienced loose horses. I can recall having an escape-artist filly at the track who was constantly getting out, despite our best efforts. My DWB x recently jumped a 4’ fence to eat grass on the other side of the fence (grass that was equally as lush as the grass on the inside of his pasture). His half-sister (same DWB sire) jumped a cattleguard several times - out onto the road - to munch grass on the other side. Clearly, she was delusional that there was more grass on the other side in the first place (family trait) :winkgrin: The moment someone showed up to return her, she would immediately jump said cattleguard back into her (40-60 acre?) pasture with the rest of the herd. My Quarab once jumped a 4’ stall gate to wander the showgrounds whilst I was in a show. When we ranched, we had cattle get out regularly - it happens. We had one black baldie who regularly pushed through any fence she so desired, dragging the rest of the herd with her (even when their was more than adequate feed, shelter, and water in their current pasture). A bull calf we had travelled something like a 100km to return to the last place he had seen his dam - through rivers, fences, and roads. Our neighbour’s shetland stud made it to our property (luckily, not our mares) several times.

Horses get out. All the time. Can it be dangerous? Of course! Should the situation be remedied? Yes! However we have no idea whether or not the individual in question has remedied the situation (have her horses been out recently, since the previous charges?). Even if it has not been remedied, that is a seperate issue to the current ‘animal cruelty’ issue.

I hired a pet sitter recently that left my two rabbits a hedgehog, and a snake nearly without water and food - the one rabbit was out of water and the hedgehog’s food dish had obviously been neglected for days (I do not consider what was left in there to have been edible). Everything had checked out and both pet sitters were responsible-seeming women in their early 50’s. Obviously, I was livid, paid-up the balance due (felt like I shouldn’t have), and kicked them out the door. Terrible pet sitters? Yes. It happens.

As for PP’s breeding practises, well we do not all have the same standards or ideals. But though it could (remotely) relate to the current situation, it hardly has anything (directly) to do with the seizure of her horses.

Please do put me in line for the next SPCA seizure, FrenchFry. Last I checked, my Quarab had matts in his mane for a good month (no bridlepath either - gasp!). He follows in his dam’s hoofprints as far as the head-tossing-mane-matting propensities go and I have him sitting on pasture board where I do not always have the time or inclination to repeatedly remove every knot from his mane. I could list even worse ‘reasons’ that would clearly meet your standards for seizure.

[Thomas_1]

Naturalequus, you’ve just helped me understand why you’re on the defensive.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147509]
The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy theory is alive and well and working!

I seriously wonder about some people’s experience and ability to form logical conclusion based on rationale!!![/QUOTE]

Like I said, you would be surprised. The family friend I mentioned? The SPCA lacked evidence there too (other than poor housekeeping and one sick and one old animal - both of which were under the care of a vet). Hence the reason said individual won the case and their animals back. But the seizure still occured in the first place and the SPCA did their best (including flying in top-notch lawyers to battle the case) to win. Sometimes it is more about money and greed than we know. I never would have doubted the SPCA (or other AC agencies) prior to my friend’s personal experiences with them but their experiences led to more investigation on my part and also the SPCA dropped the ball a couple of times, revealing their true intentions (and methods) not only in this particular individual’s case, but also in others’. Even the vets and judges who have regular dealings with the SPCA (in this area)are well aware of the SPCA’s methods.

It isn’t a conspiracy theory if it is true…and trust me, I am not one given to conspiracy theories. I maintain an open mind however I am highly critical.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147585]
Like I said, you would be surprised. The family friend I mentioned? The SPCA lacked evidence there too (other than poor housekeeping and one sick and one old animal - both of which were under the care of a vet). Hence the reason said individual won the case and their animals back. But the seizure still occured in the first place and the SPCA did their best (including flying in top-notch lawyers to battle the case) to win. Sometimes it is more about money and greed than we know. I never would have doubted the SPCA (or other AC agencies) prior to my friend’s personal experiences with them but their experiences led to more investigation on my part and also the SPCA dropped the ball a couple of times, revealing their true intentions (and methods) not only in this particular individual’s case, but also in others’. Even the vets and judges who have regular dealings with the SPCA (in this area)are well aware of the SPCA’s methods.

[/QUOTE] So what the heck does any of that have to do with “vets being easily controlled and paid off by groups such as the SPCA.”

You really do struggle with logic don’t you.

The story you told is one where horses were seized and evidence presented was such that there was reasonable doubt and so the person was not found guilty!

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147580]
Naturalequus, you’ve just helped me understand why you’re on the defensive.[/QUOTE] True. I think there are several peas in a pod here.

@"naturalequus"

does she have a history of injuries to her horses attributable to said fencing and property?

She has a history of horse problems alright. Don’t know how much of it is attributed to fencing. She is a much adored poster. No matter how much evidence is provided against her, she will be supported by many.

Note that she took her riding stallion and dog elsewhere.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=shanky;5147547]
What on Earth would be the point of that is this situation? Why would they waste their money paying off a vet, only to be forced to spend more money to feed and care for these horses until they can rehome them or get them to the nearest Canadian slaughterhouse? These horses appear to be of ZERO value in monetary terms: Show horses these ain’t.[/QUOTE]

Hey I never proposed to understand it either. However I will point out that such seizures (and same as in the case of our family friend) draw a ton of public attention and thus donations…

In the case of our family friend, the SPCA’s warrant to seize their animals was actually illegal in the first place. Nevermind the fact that all the animals were healthy, in excellent condition, and all had food, water, shelter, and access to outside. This individual’s house-keeping did not lend a good impression however it was hardly reason to seize their animals. Why the SPCA did what they did, I have no idea - other than for the publicity perhaps. However it likely had to have cost them far more to fight (and lose) against our friend (flying lawyers back and forth, caring for the animals, etc) than they accumulated in donations?? Said friend managed to grab hold of evidence the SPCA had seized and immediately euthanised a couple dozen animals from one home for no other reason than ear mites (this was all listed in private SPCA documents). Why? No idea.

Just saying it happens. Hence the reason I withold judgement.

[fivehorses]

[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;5147332]

PPs property is NOTHING out of the ordinary for a US farm. It’s not fancy. But we’ve all been there, we’ve all had this kind of fencing at some point, we’ve all had weeds, we’ve all had mud… This type of farm probably makes up 70% of the horse owning population in the US.
I can forgive horses getting lose because quite frankly, CRAP HAPPENS. I can not count on two hands how many times i’ve had a horse get lose for various reasons, and i have had animal control visit me. [/QUOTE]

I am sorrry, I hope to God 70% of US farms do not look like this.

As far as horses getting loose, one time is more than I want to experience. Multiple times is neglect and disregard for their safety as well as the publics.

I agree, the horses look in adequate flesh, the property looks derelict.

I like PP so no dog there. But, I am separating the fact this is a person I share a community bulletin board with, and the reality of what I am seeing and reading.

I abhor slaughter, but I also abhor people who backyard breed…and produce more unwanted surplus horses. Breeding is not a cheap business and there also isn’t tons of money to be made in it(I know I was married to a breeder).

If you are going to undertake the business of breeding, please make sure the babies have a place to live and clean place to be born.
So, that bothers me tons when I see the set up…no shelter? Then quit breeding and getting more horses until you are ready.

As far as the neighbors, personally I didn’t find them odd…they are mainers.

As far as northern new englanders…not imo a real helpful kind of group…live free or die is not just a NH attitude. That has been my experience.

I have a cell phone, do you want to know why? So when I am gone, my help/sitters call me at every meal(yeah, a bit neurotic) to tell me how Dobbins are doing…a friend was a farm sitter. She thought people she was working for were going away the next weekend. So, the owners horses were in stalls for 4 days without food or water. The horses survived, farmsitter had not 2 cents to rub together, was very upset too, but it didn’t help her business, and it taught me never to leave without informing a neighbor who could drop in, or a friend if I was not able to be reached by cell to call and make sure my horses were being properly cared for. That was an honest mistake, but cost the owners tons in vet hospitalization, etc.

I have been on local horse boards as well as this, and I can tell you, people live behind a facade. I am always pleasantly surprised when their internet appearence and real life match…most times it doesn’t.

I am not going to excuse what has been reported, just because it is someone I ‘know’ from the internet. PP can be a lovely person, probably is a lovely person. I can accept that.

Winter is approaching here in New England…brutal winters. Without proper food and water(how is it heated?) and shelter available, I am sorry but regardless if it is the law or not, to me it is substandard horse keeping. If the aco has been ‘talking’ to her to clean up her act for a year, and she has disregarded it, then she knew this was coming.
I worked on the BOD for our local humane association…we didn’t seize(unless horrific) but would try and work with people who kept animals in these conditions. Obviously, leaving horses and other animals for 2 weeks was the straw that broke the camel’s back for the ACO and the neighbors. Why didn’t the farm sitter show up, or was there a farm sitter, we don’t know.

The woman who owns the cremello…reminds me of my 1st horse. I would if I were you discuss buying her back from PP.

I too am sorry, life can get very lonely as a single woman who has a herd of horses to care for, and the internet can be a friend, a social connection, but it doesn’t excuse not properly caring for your animals. To me, its worse that breeding is also being done in what I think most would consider deplorable conditions. Its not fair to bring in more horses that don’t have a good chance, just not fair.

I was really disturbed last night when I read these threads. Quite upset really. I think what I was most upset about is the sense of betrayl…I know we don’t know really who people are on these boards, but my naive self tends to take people as they present, and I took PP as a fellow new englander and someone with compassion for animals. She has compassion, but it appears she doesn’t recognize the importance of horse management. I know a few people like her…they can take care of my horses or keep a horse at a fancy place, and have the rest of their horses knee deep in muck and not think anything is wrong with that.
This is truly very sad, since we are all dealing with lots of emotions here.

[cowgirljenn]

@naturalequus;5147602

Hey I never proposed to understand it either. However I will point out that such seizures (and same as in the case of our family friend) draw a ton of public attention and thus donations…

That’s a pretty common misconception - maybe a few rare cases raise tons of money, but I doubt many do. We’ve had some pretty nasty neglect cases and hit the media hard to try to get help for the horses. At most, we get a few hundred dollars. Even though our foster homes pay for the cost of hay & grain, the money raised off the media doesn’t cover our expenses (vet bills, cost to go get horses, costs to prepare for court, etc. etc. etc.).

Most of what we get when we do hit the media is people emailing us and wanting us to give them horses, calling and wanting to give us horses, or telling us of MORE neglected horses needing help. Sometimes we get calls from people wanting us to give them money to care for their own horses. We’ll get some donations, but not enough to cover our expenses…

[Donella]

Hey I never proposed to understand it either. However I will point out that such seizures (and same as in the case of our family friend) draw a ton of public attention and thus donations…

Well, FWIW, I live in the same area you do and I have found that it takes ALOT for the SPCA to seize horses. I have seen horses that, IMHO, look absolutely horrendous and yet the owners just get a talking to. There has to be something very wrong, on numerous occassions, for the SPCA to act.

I don’t know your situation but I do know of someone who still claims Dale Huber (guy who starved the 100 arabs) is a “great horseman” simply because she happened to be friends with him.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5147566]
Are you serious? Do you READ these posts, or just assume you know what they’re saying without bothering? This poster has BEEN TO HER PROPERTY inquiring about a sales horse and INTERACTED IN REAL LIFE WITH PP. That’s how she knows the horses are kept in the roundpen. Probably because PP told her “I can’t let them out in that back field because they get out all the time. So I keep them in here”. She seems to be the only one on this thread that has actually been to this property in real life. What she claims to have seen is reflected in the videos and photos of the property.

Also, open your eyes, please. There are 3 horses in the roundpen in the video posted by Thomas.[/QUOTE]

And another poster has also interacted with her in person and attested to the individual’s character too.

I hardly think that one person’s testimony as to the property is adequate, particularly considering said poster only caught PP in one moment in time and also judged the property with their own ideals and pre-conceived notions in mind (as would anyone of course, this is not a fault but is simply a point I feel worth making).

The poster who saw PP’s property claimed that most of the horses live in the roundpen and are rarely permitted in the pasture out back. Yet in the video we see several horses in the pasture out back. Is it possible some of the fences were fixed so as to keep said horses in the pasture whilst PP were at the WEG? Is it possible there is a reason some of the horses are in the roundpen? Is it possible the horses are only in the roundpen periodically (especially while PP is away) and are rotated in and out? Clearly they horses are not in the roundpen as opposed to pastured out back as much as the poster insinuated (seeing how PP left at min 3 of them on pasture whilst she were away) and I would surmise that the fences cannot be so bad at the moment that PP would have left her horses in a pasture she ‘knew’ her horses would likely escape from, for two weeks. Is it so wrongful to keep up to 3 horses in a large roundpen to begin with? Particularly if it is temporary or for some reason we do not understand or know?

Said poster also notes that PP’s dogs were unkempt. Well write me up too then, because my dogs have been unkempt at times too, especially any long-haired ones. Same goes for the ‘unkempt’ horses. Each individual has different standards, keep in mind. Your unkempt might not be my unkempt. Until I had prospective buyers show up, one of my Thoroughbred mares ‘suffered’ from a long mane, no bridlepath, a long tail, and a muddy coat. I rarely brush tails and will often ignore a matted or knotted mane if I am rushed or just do not have the inclination - somehow said mane does not interfere with my riding of said horse. Until I started advertising my Quarab on a lease, he also had no bridlepath and suffered from multiple matts in his mane. To some, he probably looked pretty darn unkempt. He was happy running amok on 40 acres though and I saw no reason to really clean him up, though of course I like a clean horse as much as the next person. To be honest, I checked up on one of my Thoroughbreds recently (on pasture rest with my Quarab and CWB mare) to find he had a superficial injury to his forehead. That, combined with his long mane and tail and lack of bridlepath or any clipping, probably makes him look pretty unkempt too. There really was nothing to be done for he injury other than to sit back and allow it to heal (y’know, as nature intended), and I see no need to clip a horse who is sitting on pasture. I love my horses to look prime - at all times. However sometimes I get a little lax too, and it depends on the horse in question. I rarely clip anything other than a bridlepath (no feathers or whiskers), because I like my horses to be permitted to keep what nature gave them, for the most part. Some consider that unkempt though too. Hardly cruelty or reason for seizure though!

The poster also commented that the property had some ‘junk’ lying around (what sort of junk? how much? have the horses had previous injuries related to said junk? are they around said junk on a regular basis?) and that the house stank. Since when does a house stinking have anything to do with animal husbandry? For sure it can be an indicator in some instances, however I would never be so quick to come to that conclusion when I have seen individuals living in houses literally in shambles but with well-cared-for animals within said house. I love a clean house however sometimes my priorities are diverted from the house to other things I deem more important. PP having a physical disability is something to also take into account.

I do not know PP (I am hardly even familiar with her on this board) nor am I necessarily defending her or her horses. However I am defending the fact that she is being so judged and criticised when we have only half the story (and really, we likely only ever will, unless we are PP ourselves).

[enjoytheride]

@naturalequus;5147532

I I am guessing AC protocol might be comparable to SPCA protocol in Canada. You receive one notice on your door (which may or may not blow off your door - or be removed by your ex so your pet-sitter never receives it and thus cannot warn you) prior to their making use of a (possibly illegal) warrant to seize your animals.

I found this post amusing. It’s so easy to make excuses for every little thing. Here, the pet sitter is coming out every day to feed and water but never got a notice because the notice was removed by a crazy ex. Really?

I will speak for the tape fencing. My barn has tape fencing as perimeter fencing. It’s hot enough to knock a person off their feet (ask me how I know). Horses aren’t stupid, and when it’s not hot it’s only a matter of time before one looking for grass gets out. It has to stay hot. If she doesn’t have electricity, or if her solar charger doesn’t manage that long stretch of fencing, or if it’s in such bad shape that the electricity doesn’t jump the bad spots it isn’t going to stay hot.

If you have tape fence and it’s hot horses stay in. If a horse gets out on accident and animal control comes out they aren’t going to do anything if everything else is in order.

So many people on this BB complain about the lack of response by animal control. But the second animal control approaches a BBer they are up in arms.

Animal control has been to my barn. It’s off the highway and there are more horses then grass. So people call saying the horses are starving and/or blindfolded. Animal control trucks out. Observes obese horses, 300 bales of hay, barrels full of grain, water trough full, shakes hands, leaves. They don’t say anything about the broodmares with long tangled manes because they are in good shape and their feet are done.

[vineyridge]

Have you guys heard of the Murder Hollow Basset pack seizure? This involved a woman who lived in a newly urban area and had a pack of hunting bassets. She had lived there and had her pack and her kennels long before the area came under city regulations. Like most hunting packs, she drafted hounds from other packs for breeding. A neighbor who didn’t like the fact that she kept her hounds in kennels and had more than the current city established limits turned her into the Philly SPCA, who came out and intimidated her (in her ignorance of how to deal with such interference), and she voluntarily turned most of her pack over to them. The hounds literally vanished; and some of them were not even hers. The true owners have not been able to find them, and all the males were neutered before they vanished. After some months, she was cleared of all charges, but it cost an arm and a leg for the legal fees, some of which were covered by donations.

After that experience, it’s hard to believe that SPCAs, as opposed to legal animal control officers, can be trusted to understand that there are many ways of keeping animals that are not based on the theory that all animals are pets.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147570]

Look again and use the fingers on your hand to count

http://www.wabi.tv/news/14726/horses...cted-in-denham

The horses were seized because the owner had abandoned them without food, water and shelter. There was quick action because the owner was known to the authorities already and has been the subject of previous conviction and with another pending in process plus has been the subject of a one year investigation.[/QUOTE]

Clearly I had not seen the video you posted Thomas and missed a horse. And?

The owner may not have abandoned them - how do you know they were abandoned and it was not a case of a sitter-gone-bad?

A previous conviction is not necessarily indicative of much either. Read my posts in regards to the family friend I mentioned. Or other situations that can lead to a conviction.

One-year investigation can also mean a variety of things too.

I am not defending PP herself but am simply pointing out that there is so much information we are not privy to that can change the entire story. It hardly seems appropriate to judge based on a couple anecdotes and media reports.

[Tamara_in_TN]

I think that many people don’t realize that a fancy web site and eloquent speech on the internet or even in person is NOT the actual fact of a farm.

Our first year delivering hay commerically we went to more places like the farm in question than not. I am just not suprised anymore by that. In fact if a farm ever DOES look like it’s website I am normally stunned.

That may be part of the emotion of it all.The image one may have held does not match the images smattered all over the internet now. I hope it is all sorted out for the best.

Tamara in TN