Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

Sure, horses get out all the time. But in looking at the fencing in the photos of PP’s place, I can see why they do.

In my neck of the woods, even if your horses are fat and happy, you’ll get them seized if they are living in those type of unsafe conditions. And, this is still the GOOD time of year, weather-wise in Maine. Can you imagine what the conditions will be like in January?

I sure hope PP wasn’t planning on keeping 3 horses in that round pen all winter.

And, to the people who say the conditions can be explained because PP has health issues and a job with weird hours, you’re off base. The horses don’t care if you’re disabled. They don’t care if you work weird hours. They deserve a safe and comfortable place to live. Cull your herd, if you have to. Keep what you can manage and afford.

Anybody else wondering if one of the gleeful neighbors had promised s/he would feed and water and then decided to instead call animal control?

The whole situation seems odd. And I guess AC broke into her house to get the cat that was inside. (I lost track of the number of the surviving kittens, but I think there were at least two in addition to mom - so at least one cat is still there.)

Horses do get loose even with “good” fencing. I have a half sister to Jaime’s filly who discovered that she could run through 4 strands of very well charged Horseguard and get out…all she has to do is take that initial shock. She also crawls under things and is very very smart. While I do not want to see her filly live in the roundpen her whole life, if Jaime was going to be out of town, I can certainly see why the filly was in there for some safe keeping.

I have to say that I am disappointed with the internet armchair experts who can look at an obviously biased news article, a few pics of what looks like well taken care of horses (mane tangles???seriously…havd any of you ever dealt with the longer maned breeds???) and somehow determine that she deserves this when she was not even home to defend herself to those news teams or animal control officers.

Mao who is also in KY says she spoke to her and she told her of her plans to have her horses cared for while she was gone so I’m 100% convinced it was a failure by her farmsitter.

Just this morning my barn help was an hour late showing up for chores and I had to track her down. It was supposed to be a rare morning off for me. Crap happens and the best plans can fall apart.

No I’m not thrilled with the condition of her farm but I also know what an immense amount of work keeping up a place like that is for one person. I’m healthy and I’m exhausted most of the time, and I don’t get to everything that needs done. Jaime does have Fibromyalgia and struggles with that…and I’m sure that is why the mowing is not done, etc… I also know she is trying hard to find a better job and while money is short for her and it reflects in her facility, the horses looked fine to me. Clearly they are being fed enough.

For those who say their coats look funny…remember it’s mid October in Maine…it’s probably snowing already and you are looking at winter coats. Seriously what horse looks good shaggy and fluffy in winter hair?

Shelter is a funny thing and laws vary by State. In the West on the Great Plains in states like Wyoming or S. Dakota, no shelter is fine and horses winter out where the only wind break from blowing snow might be a draw or gully or a line of cottonwood trees. Out there a certain amount of dead horses or cattle in the Spring from freezing to death or weakening and dying is overlooked. So to condemn her for a citation of no shelter or a loose horse is just crazy to me when you consider what people in other states get away with year after year. Also if she has rugs for them, they probably get covered up in really bad weather.

So please to all of you have her tried and convicted from the comfort of your desks at home, try to consider that it really may not be as simple or clearcut as it seems from those articles. Give her a chance to at least respond when she gets home and gets a chance to read all the venom and nastiness.

Also…to those of you in the NE are or near Jaime…perhaps someone could organize a day to go over to her place and give her a hand with mowing and maintenance? If I were closer, I’d do it in a heartbeat. I suspect she’s self conscious of her need for help and does not want to ask.

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147580]
Naturalequus, you’ve just helped me understand why you’re on the defensive.[/QUOTE]

Because I have been in the other shoes and have seen the other shoes from friends’ perspectives.

Our fences have never been anything but immaculate. I now board at the best places possible (I recently had a vet out who remarked the primary facility I board at to be the safest she had ever seen) - board fences, auto waterers, shelter, excellent feed, and regular checking (min twice a day). The pasture facility I board also exudes the same quality care.

My animals at home have the best care possible - they are always set up so that they could go up to 3-4 days without care (though they do not) without worry - just in case. I always go over and above the norms of husbandry where possible.

Any of my vets are always impressed with the quality of care of my animals - I always receive raves about their condition. My dogs receive the best dog food money can buy (after a ton of research) and are fit (absolutely ripped, usually) and healthy. My horses are always at a good weight (barring something unusual, at which time the circumstances are remedied) and are on the best feeds. Any of my animals receive the best vet care possible and appropriate, whatever the cost at the time. Check out the pics I have posted on my personal profile for evidence as to my horses’ condition.

So, Thomas, I fail to agree with your insinuation that my animals lack quality care or that my animal husbandry leaves something to be desired, hence my defense of PP.

My defense of PP comes not because I believe her to be infallible (for goodness sake, I do not even know her, not even on this board, really), but because I have been in her shoes and refuse to jump to conclusions.

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147593]
So what the heck does any of that have to do with “vets being easily controlled and paid off by groups such as the SPCA.”

You really do struggle with logic don’t you.

The story you told is one where horses were seized and evidence presented was such that there was reasonable doubt and so the person was not found guilty![/QUOTE]

No, that’s the point. There wasn’t reasonable doubt and the SPCA vets were evasive and much of their ‘evidence’ false (as determined by outside vets).

Sorry though, I am struggling a bit with putting to paper what is in my head this morning, hence the reason some of my posts seem a bit skewered (I know it). Bad morning :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=cowgirljenn;5147620]
That’s a pretty common misconception - maybe a few rare cases raise tons of money, but I doubt many do. We’ve had some pretty nasty neglect cases and hit the media hard to try to get help for the horses. At most, we get a few hundred dollars. Even though our foster homes pay for the cost of hay & grain, the money raised off the media doesn’t cover our expenses (vet bills, cost to go get horses, costs to prepare for court, etc. etc. etc.).

Most of what we get when we do hit the media is people emailing us and wanting us to give them horses, calling and wanting to give us horses, or telling us of MORE neglected horses needing help. Sometimes we get calls from people wanting us to give them money to care for their own horses. We’ll get some donations, but not enough to cover our expenses…[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is a common misconception, I wouldn’t know and have not met many people who have believed as such. I certainly did not until I saw the evidence presented in front of me (including specific confidential SPCA documents the SPCA accidentally left where they should not have).

Like I said, I do not understand the reasoning behind some of the wrongful (and illegal, in certain cases) seizures the SPCA partakes in and expenditures they incur (expenditures like seizing healthy animals and flying in top-notch lawyers to battle court cases when very proficient lawyers existed in the city in question).

[QUOTE=Donella;5147623]
Hey I never proposed to understand it either. However I will point out that such seizures (and same as in the case of our family friend) draw a ton of public attention and thus donations…

Well, FWIW, I live in the same area you do and I have found that it takes ALOT for the SPCA to seize horses. I have seen horses that, IMHO, look absolutely horrendous and yet the owners just get a talking to. There has to be something very wrong, on numerous occassions, for the SPCA to act.

I don’t know your situation but I do know of someone who still claims Dale Huber (guy who starved the 100 arabs) is a “great horseman” simply because she happened to be friends with him.[/QUOTE]

I know, I have the same experiences as you. Which is why it baffles me that the exact opposite can occur at times. The SPCA I am referring to however is not an Alberta chapter. Thus far, in all honesty, I find no fault in the Alberta SPCA as far as wrongfully seizing animals, though now I remain critical (and I do have a problem with my area’s HS due to some of their protocols I have seen). My bone to pick is with another provincial SPCA who was blatantly in the wrong (including upper management). My point is just that clearly some of the SPCA’s are far from responsible and looking to the animal’s benefit. Whether or not that is the case here, remains to be seen. Just pointing out it is possible though.

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;5147639]
I found this post amusing. It’s so easy to make excuses for every little thing. Here, the pet sitter is coming out every day to feed and water but never got a notice because the notice was removed by a crazy ex. Really?

I will speak for the tape fencing. My barn has tape fencing as perimeter fencing. It’s hot enough to knock a person off their feet (ask me how I know). Horses aren’t stupid, and when it’s not hot it’s only a matter of time before one looking for grass gets out. It has to stay hot. If she doesn’t have electricity, or if her solar charger doesn’t manage that long stretch of fencing, or if it’s in such bad shape that the electricity doesn’t jump the bad spots it isn’t going to stay hot.

If you have tape fence and it’s hot horses stay in. If a horse gets out on accident and animal control comes out they aren’t going to do anything if everything else is in order.

So many people on this BB complain about the lack of response by animal control. But the second animal control approaches a BBer they are up in arms.

Animal control has been to my barn. It’s off the highway and there are more horses then grass. So people call saying the horses are starving and/or blindfolded. Animal control trucks out. Observes obese horses, 300 bales of hay, barrels full of grain, water trough full, shakes hands, leaves. They don’t say anything about the broodmares with long tangled manes because they are in good shape and their feet are done.[/QUOTE]

I should actually edit to say that the protocol I mentioned was of one specific province. I cannot attest as to whether it is protocol in all of Canada. My mistake.

But yes, the story re: the ex is completely true. Seems this ex has nothing better to do than to drink in the bar and make it their life mission to destroy their ex (for whatever reason, as their ex is the sweetest most compassionate person you could ever imagine and has never displayed any such behaviour towards the individual causing them so much mayhem). Not sure how that is so difficult to believe though? You should be thankful you have never had a vengeful ex :yes:

I’m disturbed if people take pictures of another place and use it as their website - is that what is being said or did I misunderstand? That’s false advertising, correct?

I know things are not always what they seem, which is why I rarely, if ever, purchase anything off the internet without using my CC, and even then, I take great caution. I also do not think things are always what they seem - on either end of the spectrum. Sometimes things are worse than they seem, sometimes better. Sometimes the story is just about unbelievable and then you see pictures, a la Spink. :eek:

My point is, while I want to believe the best in people, I’ve been on this BB and others long enough to see that people, even RESPECTED members of THIS BB are not always what they seem.

A few years ago, while I was volunteering at DAD, I had the pleasure of having lunch with some judges from GB. We began discussing various breeders, and I happened to mention one that I had long-admired from COTH - I was absolutely SHOCKED as to the response I received from the two judges! From what they expressed, this person was about one step from animal neglect. Now, how do I know the JUDGES were telling the truth? I don’t. I just have to believe that perhaps there is more to that farm than I originally believed. If anything, it reminded me to check references if I should ever purchase a horse from that breeder - or ANY person, for that matter!

[QUOTE=Go Fish;5147657]
Sure, horses get out all the time. But in looking at the fencing in the photos of PP’s place, I can see why they do.

In my neck of the woods, even if your horses are fat and happy, you’ll get them seized if they are living in those type of unsafe conditions. And, this is still the GOOD time of year, weather-wise in Maine. Can you imagine what the conditions will be like in January?

I sure hope PP wasn’t planning on keeping 3 horses in that round pen all winter.

And, to the people who say the conditions can be explained because PP has health issues and a job with weird hours, you’re off base. The horses don’t care if you’re disabled. They don’t care if you work weird hours. They deserve a safe and comfortable place to live. Cull your herd, if you have to. Keep what you can manage and afford.[/QUOTE]

Oh I agree with you GoFish and fully admit to the horses’ living conditions being less than optimal. Just saying we do not have the full story and that though it might not be up to our standards, it still may be better than we realise. It certainly does not warrant their seizure. Lack of food and water - yes. However we do not know the full story there either and the horses are obviously not in poor health or condition. I just do not think it fair to judge either way at this point based on the little information we have been given.

My goodness, I just noticed the recent quantity of my posts. sigh I can’t wait to get home where I have more to do than sit on a BB all day. Like, y’know, ride my horses :wink:

Would not the water require the generator to be turned ON…

Add to all her other evident precipice of issues, an issue with the generator?

[QUOTE=ThisTooShallPass;5147730]
Would not the water require the generator to be turned ON…

Add to all her other evident precipice of issues, an issue with the generator?[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly!!

Wow, I’m actually really shocked at how many people have been screwed over by sitters. I’m sure that sounds stupid, but really are there no responsible people anymore? Have to say, I am so lucky in where I live now. We all look after each other and would never have to worry someone didn’t do what they said they would do.

Terri

It doesn’t really matter how “nice” a person is, or how good their intentions are, the fact of the matter is that I don’t think this person is able to adequately care for the animals she has. I have no problem with horses living out, or being muddy, but I don’t get how people have been enabling this person with ideas about breeding, or acquiring more horses.

I also don’t know what happened with the sitter. I know when I go away, even internationally, I check in on a DAILY basis to make sure that my animals are being taken care of, and I don’t even have horses at home. My sitter stays at my house and I pay her very well because I know animals are a lot of work. (Horse is on full care with no chance of being without anything her little heart desires.) If I don’t hear from my sitter, I contact her. I also give her at least three other contacts, including neighbors, in case she needs “back up” so to speak.

One other point - it wasn’t like this person was in the hospital, or faced with some sort of emergency where she had to leave right away and couldn’t make plans for her animals or had to make hasty plans. That I would have some sympathy for. However, she was going to WEG. On vacation.

I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but I think even without the lack of water or food and seizure debacle I would be encouraging this person to downsize.

I also completely agree with the points below:

After reading a gazillion posts, I’m curious about two aspects of this story:

  1. What do people consider the baseline for acceptable standards of horse care? The horses don’t look starved to me and didn’t have “ski feet”. Also, PP did plan for her absence and had a sitter and extra water source lined up. Are the other aspects of her place (fencing, roundpens, etc.) dangerous enough to warrant the horses being removed without an attempt to remedy the situation or to discover what was going on?

  2. Because PP is a COTH member, people are going to react differently, as opposed to if this were some random person featured over on FHotD. I wonder if the power of group dynamics will come into play and whether people will be painted as “enablers” or “sympathizers” because of their opinions. Like it or not, this story has become everyone’s business and it’s interesting to see which posters are throwing stones and which are offering a helping hand.

Except for the few who have met PP or done business with her, we’re all really just armchair Quaterbacks, aren’t we? Nobody knows if the ending will be happy or sad–we’ll have to sit back and see how it plays out.

An acquaintance here who leased half of the barn that the rescue I volunteered for also leased, went out of town for the $th of july 2 years ago, and hired someone to feed and water/clean the pens for her horses (about 8). He was well recommended and used to work at the local racetrack.
Well, I fed the rescue horses around 5 pm and hers hadn’t been fed, and water was low (it’s HOT here in July), so I watered her horses. I went back out around 9 :30 to check on the horses because everyone out there shoots off fireworks, and I didn’t know how the rescue horses would react, and I saw that her horses still had not been fed. So I called her, and let her know. She reached the “sitter” and he drunkenly told her, it was a holiday, and he isn’t going to go work on a holiday. So I fed until she returned. But if no one had been there to notice, her horses would have been w/o food and water for at least a day in extreme heat.
So it can happen, even with references.

I too am appalled at how many crappy animals sitters there are. It’d be a dream to get decently paid to take care of people’s animals while on vacation!
It’s not that hard, geez. Food, water, muck, give them a once over for booboos. . . . .It’s stunning to hear how many people have had a pet sitter stand them up and that is absolutely unacceptable. If you say you’ll take care of someone else’s living creatures, then blow it off?? takes a special kind of self centered in my book.

[QUOTE=armchair_Quaterback;5147831]
Except for the few who have met PP or done business with her, we’re all really just armchair Quaterbacks, aren’t we? Nobody knows if the ending will be happy or sad–we’ll have to sit back and see how it plays out.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. I also think there is a range of what is considered “acceptable” horse care. Some may be okay with the lower range, some with the higher. But I think everyone can agree that no water is “unacceptable.”

I also agree that it could be a case of a pet sitter gone bad. Maybe he/she was lying and calling PP and telling her she just checked on the horses, they were fine, etc., giving PP no reason for worry. I have no idea.

However, based on what I saw in those photos, the conditions are not what I would consider acceptable for the kind of operation she was running (stallion, filly, foals?!) and I really question PP’s judgement in this regard, separate from the whole seizure debacle.

Naturalequus, why not give Animal Control the benefit of the doubt too? Sure, all most of us have to judge the situation is a one-sided article and some pics/video, but at least we have pics and video of part of PP’s place, and even you’ll admit there are some issues that should be addressed in the horses’ environment.

We know nothing at all about these Animal Control officers or the neighbors, and yet look at all the conjecture: they might not like the smell, they might’ve been plotting to get rid of the horses, they might’ve overturned the water trough, the vet might be paid off, this could be to get media attention and donations.

Really? Perhaps keep a little bit of that reserved judgment and benefit of the doubt for those involved in this tale who aren’t PP. At least from Animal Control’s point of view it was probably an easy decision: person with prior conviction on animal cruelty, under investigation for over a year with another pending charge of some kind, now MIA and the animals have no water. Sure the water could be a bad farm sitter’s fault, but Animal Control still did nothing wrong.