Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[Timex]

i’m going to go ahead and apologize now, for not being perfect, as apparently so many of you are, and therefore capable of passing judgement on a person whom you don’t know. And, since I don’t know her either, except here, I’m going to wait until a few more FACTS (ever heard of them?) are known before jumping the gun.

And, for the record - the SPCA has been called on me before. Because whoever it was didn’t think I fed my horses (I had to be at work at 5am, so i fed in the dark, and left extra hay in the barn, which no one would be able to see from the road), and they didn’t like how my horses were standing around ‘not doing anything’. Like what, parcheesi? A rousing game of charades? No, no charges were filed. but if they were, would I have the $$ to fight it in court? uh, probably not. Paying what would be a nominal fee, in comparison to attorney’s fees, would be better than being thousands of dollars in debt. Is that what happened in PP’s prior conviction? Well, I don’t know. And, I dare say, neither does anyone else. Heck, shy of 1 person, no one has ever seen her place. And, i don’t know that person from Adam. Nor does anyone else, yet some of you are so willing to take that person’s word. Not calling that poster a liar, but it certainly is a possibility, isn’t it? Thomas could be a sex offender. Jetsmom could be a bank robber. Equilibrium could be a chronic alcoholic with multiple manslaughter convictions. In all 3 cases, probably not. But, could be. Catch my drift, guys? None of us know what really has gone on. None of us know what happens at PP’s place on a day to day basis. So, rather than jumping to conclusions - either way - why don’t we all just sit on our happy little typing hands and WAIT a minute, or 2, and let things get settled. PP will get home, and either get charged, formally (rather than by the Cothers with nothing better to do with thier time, apparently) or she’ll get her horses back. Hate to be the grown-up voice of reason around here, but somebody’s got to do it…

[Moderator_1]

We’ve merged some duplicate threads on this situation into one. Our apologies for any confusion that may result.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Wayside]

[QUOTE=armchair_Quaterback;5147831]
After reading a gazillion posts, I’m curious about two aspects of this story:

1. What do people consider the baseline for acceptable standards of horse care? The horses don’t look starved to me and didn’t have “ski feet”. Also, PP did plan for her absence and had a sitter and extra water source lined up. Are the other aspects of her place (fencing, roundpens, etc.) dangerous enough to warrant the horses being removed without an attempt to remedy the situation or to discover what was going on?.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a good point, and is definitely something that varies from area to area, both based on municipal codes/laws, and the average standard of horsekeeping.

Personally, I prefer to see young stock a little on the lean side, I think it’s healthier than being overweight as they grow. None of the horses pictures had a body condition score that raised any red flags for me, from what I could see of the photos/video.

Drinkable water should be available at all times. This is where things obviously didn’t meet the bare minimum standard, but we have no idea what happened to the horse sitter, or if something sprung a leak, or what.

Personally, I think some type of shelter is a must, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a barn or run-in shed. Some trees, an embankment, a hillside, a windbreak, something.

As far as fencing goes, I’m of the opinion that fencing should keep your animals in, but I beleive there are still parts of the country where it’s a landowner’s responsibility to keep passing livestock OUT of their property, as opposed to fencing them IN.

And I realize that despite our best efforts, there will be critters from time to time that manage to bypass the system. Just the other day, one of my co-boarder’s horses didn’t feel like waiting for her buddies to come out, and blasted her way through a board fence. A month ago, one of my mares jumped a hot electric fence. I’ve resorted to chains and carabiner snaps to hold gates shut with this same mare, since she has unlatched gates more than once. My home farm, where the retirees chill, no longer has a solely electric fence since I used to own a gelding who would climb through the wires the second the power went out.

The thing is, that if your animals get out, you need to take a good hard look at your fencing and pasture situation, and see if there’s anything you can change to prevent that from happening again.

In and of itself, while it would make me nervous, I don’t beleive the disrepair of the fence is inherantly a reason to remove the horses. Certainly not a reason to remove horses who are, at that point in time, being contained.

@armchair_Quaterback;5147831

2. Because PP is a COTH member, people are going to react differently, as opposed to if this were some random person featured over on FHotD. I wonder if the power of group dynamics will come into play and whether people will be painted as “enablers” or “sympathizers” because of their opinions. Like it or not, this story has become everyone’s business and it’s interesting to see which posters are throwing stones and which are offering a helping hand.

It is interesting, and I think it’s only natural to want to believe that likeable people are good people. But liking someone doesn’t make them good, nor does disliking someone make them bad. Most people are really somewhere in the midde, with different strengths and weaknesses. However, being likeable does make it easier for people to decide to try to help you, rather than just declaring you unsalvageable and throwing you to the wolves :winkgrin:

[butlerfamilyzoo]

What a good idea to post phone numbers up permanently, this is something i honestly didnt think of either, i have contact info in the feed bin, but an outsider wouldnt know to look in there.

I hadnt put two and two together that if PP doesnt have electricity her fences might not be hot. I have solar chargers here, and yes, they fail often. My one silly mare that likes to escape isnt allowed in those pastures. The rest of my fencing is wood and she seems to leave it alone.

I also did not see the video showing the 3 horses in the round pen. I only saw 2 on the video i watched. Watching the video that shows the 3 horses makes me think the neighbors are bigger idiots than i previously thought…

I like to believe the best in people, though they frequently let me down. I also tend to believe that some of the worst horse owners are probably those that post the most often here on COTH since obviously they arent outside taking care of their horses… And maybe PP fell into that category. I think a lot of us would be surprised to see the horses and farms of our COTH friends that we “know” so well. And no, i’m not leaving myself out of that category. I do not have a “pretty” place, i have a once pretty place that i rent and i’m not putting my money into it since i dont own it. It is merely functional and 3 of my horses borderline on obese with one that is thin, and no Thomas, i dont leave him without food and water, but i dont leave him with pet sitters either, frankly, i dont leave…

I will not bash another persons breeding program simply because it isnt what i would do. We all have our personal tastes. At least her grade stallion is progressing up the levels and with a trainer often, supposedly… That’s more than most the grade stallions out there reproducing. And if we are looking at it merely as “breeding grade horses is terrible!” Well geeze, plenty of grade horses have done well in the show ring. Look at the deceased Teddy with shetland even in his pedigree. Who would have guessed how that would of turned out, but that was a breeder with a goal and she achieved her goal with her bloodline, and is continuing to do so. So just cause i dont agree with the mix of breeds being thrown in, doesnt mean it’s something that wont amount to anything. Heck, plenty of purebred horses i wouldnt own if someone paid me, you cant ride the papers! I wont judge a person on what they like in a horse. We all have different tastes, thus there are so many different breeds on this planet.

Sad Sad story regardless. I sure hope we get to hear the ending. I sure hope people will step in and HELP regardless of if PP turns out to be nutso, she’s very obviously someone that thrives by having her horses though she may financially or physically be unable to keep up with them and doesnt know how to ask for help, i would hate to take her joy away because we were all rude and called her nutso. I would hate to read her obituary because she hung herself from all of the grief and turmoil this will cause. And i’m sure there will be those on here that will say YES - HANG THE HORSE ABUSER! I could not imagine being in her shoes right now. Maybe everyone needs to step back and think of that for a minute. People commit suicide for a lot less in this world because everyone is too rude or busy to step in and offer any type of help, they are quicker to bash them and take everything away…

[Lieslot]

I still don’t get how someone can afford vet & farrier care + upkeep of 6 horses, when they haul kerosone to heat & use a generator for electricity. Or is life different in rural areas?
If one is in a difficult financial situation, why keep that many horses? Why not try to downsize. This is regardless of whether she had a mishap with the sitter or not.

This BB is weird.
Go onto horsecare and someone asks some advice about their horse being NQR and if such poster has not yet called out the vet, some will be screaming murder.
Yet, the situation as described here, seems to have to be defended by some of COTH. RK is bloody murder yet out in winter with no shelter is heaven on earth, coz that’s what nature intended and unsafe fencing is just something to be overlooked, no big deal.
If the situation is as described & seen from the article, then it’s bad.

And with regards to sitter-mishap or not. When I travel overseas & horses are left behind, I make sure I check-in DAILY and friends are aware of my whereabouts and if AC were at my door I would have been reached the very same day.
You own horses, you take your responsibilities and that means to not blindly trust anyone, even your beloved farmsitter when you are gone for multiple days, you check-in on what’s going on at the homefront.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147684]
I know, I have the same experiences as you. Which is why it baffles me that the exact opposite can occur at times. The SPCA I am referring to however is not an Alberta chapter. Thus far, in all honesty, I find no fault in the Alberta SPCA as far as wrongfully seizing animals, though now I remain critical (and I do have a problem with my area’s HS due to some of their protocols I have seen). My bone to pick is with another provincial SPCA who was blatantly in the wrong (including upper management). My point is just that clearly some of the SPCA’s are far from responsible and looking to the animal’s benefit. Whether or not that is the case here, remains to be seen. Just pointing out it is possible though.[/QUOTE]

Another misconception is that SPCA’s in the states are chapters. All SPCA’s are independent here. They don’t report to the aspca or hsus.

I understand that you have problems with a bad ex and an allegedly ill-run seizure. But just because you ran into a bad egg doesn’t mean that all SPCA’s are bad or that the SPCA (or Animal Control - I didn’t read the article so I don’t know who is involved with this case) is automatically suspect.

Also, just because the neighbor interviews were silly doesn’t mean that AC doesn’t have a case.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;5147666]

Our fences have never been anything but immaculate. I now board at the best places possible (I recently had a vet out who remarked the primary facility I board at to be the safest she had ever seen) - board fences, auto waterers, shelter, excellent feed, and regular checking (min twice a day). The pasture facility I board also exudes the same quality care.

My animals at home have the best care possible - they are always set up so that they could go up to 3-4 days without care (though they do not) without worry - just in case. I always go over and above the norms of husbandry where possible.

Any of my vets are always impressed with the quality of care of my animals - I always receive raves about their condition. My dogs receive the best dog food money can buy (after a ton of research) and are fit (absolutely ripped, usually) and healthy. My horses are always at a good weight (barring something unusual, at which time the circumstances are remedied) and are on the best feeds. Any of my animals receive the best vet care possible and appropriate, whatever the cost at the time. Check out the pics I have posted on my personal profile for evidence as to my horses’ condition.

So, Thomas, I fail to agree with your insinuation that my animals lack quality care or that my animal husbandry leaves something to be desired, hence my defense of PP.

My defense of PP comes not because I believe her to be infallible (for goodness sake, I do not even know her, not even on this board, really), but because I have been in her shoes and refuse to jump to conclusions.[/QUOTE] I’ve insinuated nothing.

You told us what you and your friends do and hence what you think is common place and the norm!

[FlashGordon]

[QUOTE=Timex;5147880]
Thomas could be a sex offender. Jetsmom could be a bank robber. Equilibrium could be a chronic alcoholic with multiple manslaughter convictions. In all 3 cases, probably not. But, could be. Catch my drift, guys? [/QUOTE]

LOL.

Sad, but true. There IS sometimes a disconnect between an internet persona and a real live person. I don’t think this is a rule, at least on the forums I frequent, but more an exception. Maybe I’m naive, or just lucky… in that the people I’ve met via COTH have always been what I anticipated.

In PP’s case I hope this is all just a big misunderstanding.

Regardless, there is a lot of grey area when it comes to real life situations and how they play out on the internet and until there are some real, hard and fast truths I am going to refrain from judging…

[BLBGP]

@armchair_Quaterback;5147831

1. What do people consider the baseline for acceptable standards of horse care? The horses don’t look starved to me and didn’t have “ski feet”. Also, PP did plan for her absence and had a sitter and extra water source lined up. Are the other aspects of her place (fencing, roundpens, etc.) dangerous enough to warrant the horses being removed without an attempt to remedy the situation or to discover what was going on?

It doesn’t really matter what we think is the baseline. Most jurisdictions simply require food, water, shelter, and vet care when necessary. Sounds like at least two of these were not being met.

“Are going to be happening too much”? Already happening. Horses are getting the brunt of the bad economy now, animal welfare-wise.

[Timex]

Sorry we can’t all be as wonderfully perfect as you, Thomas. I’m on my BlackBerry, can someone give me the eye-rolly icon? And I’m not defending anyone, but I’m not going to instantly condemn anyone either. Especially those I don’t know. I know it’s hard, being a reasonable adult, but maybe if more people tried it, we’d have fewer judgmental, sanctimonious jackasses making assumptions. Fer christ’s sake… Head shaking icon please?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Timex;5147947]
Sorry we can’t all be as wonderfully perfect as you, Thomas. I’m on my BlackBerry, can someone give me the eye-rolly icon? …Fer christ’s sake… Head shaking icon please?[/QUOTE]

Well I never personally thought it “perfect” just to provide feed, water, shelter, responsible supervision and to keep the blighters fenced in but you’re very welcome to have the icon :no::yes::rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Timex View Post
Thomas could be a sex offender. Jetsmom could be a bank robber. Equilibrium could be a chronic alcoholic with multiple manslaughter convictions. In all 3 cases, probably not. But, could be. Catch my drift, guys?
Well I can’t speak for the others you mentioned but I can’t be. I don’t post anonymously and I do hold a Riding Establishments Licence. One of the criteria for that is having a CRB check.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I turned in a farm near Houston, the horses had water, thus nothing else could be done. There was shelter on the property, at least on one side of the road… But hardly enough for the 60 horses there. The neglect would fill a book so no need to go into it. However, i can tell you that the woman still has all her horses and continues to breed more every year.

Nothing was done… Why? The head of the SPCA at the time was this lady’s vet. Want to hear the big kicker of the whole thing? I had wrote a local rescue to ask who i needed to contact for this area to turn her in. I did NOT say the location, the name of the farm, the owner, or even the breed of horses that were there… The RESCUE forwarded my email on to the SPCA and the VET called the owner to tell her she had been ratted out and i got an ear full from her…

So even the vet/head of the SPCA (at the time) KNEW the farm without me even giving names or location just by description of the neglect! Yet the horses are still there in the same condition. This was 7yrs ago.

Sorry to go into that rant… Still ticks me off terribly knowing those horses live that way. But the point is, in TX all that is required is water since they cant exactly prove the horses are fed once every 24hrs or not. The same goes for all livestock, cattle, goats, etc… Without living in MA or in her city, dont know what their actual rules are, we can only speculate.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=Timex;5147947]
And I’m not defending anyone, but I’m not going to instantly condemn anyone either. Especially those I don’t know. [/QUOTE]

Totally behind you - as long as the same holds true for the people working the seizure. Sounds like almost everyone is either condemning PP or AC (or all SPCA’s and AC’s everywhere). Many of those saying we can’t condemn PP without knowing the facts are then blasting AC for taking the animals in the first place.

butlerfamilyzoo - that sucks that you were outed. How horrible! But it’s true, in most jurisdictions all that is required is food, shelter, water, vet care when needed. Some places its even less than that. I’m sure there was a lot that all of us would see wrong with the farm near you but in the eyes of the law the basic (very basic) needs were being met.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147956]

Well I can’t speak for the others you mentioned but I can’t be. I don’t post anonymously and I do hold a Riding Establishments Licence. One of the criteria for that is having a CRB check.[/QUOTE]

But Thomas… Maybe you just havent been caught and convicted yet for anything to show up on your CRB check… All we have to go on is what you write about yourself.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;5147969]
But Thomas… Maybe you just havent been caught and convicted yet for anything to show up on your CRB check… All we have to go on is what you write about yourself.[/QUOTE] What a bloody stupid insinuation!

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=Eye in the Sky;5147694]
I’m disturbed if people take pictures of another place and use it as their website - is that what is being said or did I misunderstand? That’s false advertising, correct?

there are many places with “stock” scenery and farm photos off the internet and people who only use glossy show photos…not “around the place” pics

Tamara in TN

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;5147959]

So even the vet/head of the SPCA (at the time) KNEW the farm without me even giving names or location just by description of the neglect! Yet the horses are still there in the same condition. This was 7yrs ago.

the Rorh farm perhaps??

Tamara in TN

[butlerfamilyzoo]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5147972]
What a bloody stupid insinuation![/QUOTE]

Hence how the forums and message boards of the world work. We are making insinuations about PP based on a poorly written article, some photos showing a not so up to par farm, but not showing neglected horses, and retarded neighbors that obviously know nothing about horse care. Yet we jump to the possibly wrong conclusions and want to slit PP’s throat before hearing her side at all…

I’m really not insinuating anything, thus my smiley and wink of the above post… But just because people say things about people or themselves, doesnt always mean it’s true. A good thing to remember when we read/watch the news or internet.

[scheherazadetbmare]

If you go to the wabitv, I think it is wabi tv, the Bangor Me website for the tv station, you can watch the video of the skinny horse (yes there is a skinny horse with bones showing) and also see the horse trying to eat the grass roots in the dirt. :mad:

Who was her horse sitter last year for the other offense? Too many excuses. That horse did not get that skinny in a week’s time.

And her prior conviction in January was it? was not conjecture. It’s a fact.

[Lieslot]

http://www.wabi.tv/news/14726/horses-abused-neglected-in-dedham