Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5148372]
I’m confused.

If these horses have been without food and water for almost two weeks, they should look a lot worse than they do, shouldn’t they? [/QUOTE]

Water, yes. Food, no. It takes quite some time for a horse’s body condition to deteriorate significantly without food. They can live off their fat and muscle for a long time and often impact their bellies with sand foraging for whatever they can find. And we all know the varying levels of hard keepers vs. air ferns. I know of two horses and a pony whose owner was successfully prosecuted for animal neglect. One horse was a 1 on the Henneke scale. The other was a 1.5. The pony was a 4. All kept in the same horrid conditions.

I’m as frustrated as others here reading about all this. I agree that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions but it seems that so many people here are willing to blast AC and then cry about people jumping to conclusions about PP. Shouldn’t AC be given the benefit of the doubt, too?

In every case I have seen, “investigating for a year” means working with the owner for them to correct the situation. In CA it is very difficult to seize animals and we have to give owners multiple opportunities to correct the situation first. Which generally leads to people screaming about AC not doing their job (when really they are working as best they can within the confines of the law). I do not know animal welfare laws in ME but presumably it is similar.

[fivehorses]

I could care less about the fricking generator.

What has bothered me, and I just found it is the aco and neighbors saying she leaves a lot, yet I could swear she posted a thread about her concern about leaving
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273655

As far as the foals…hasn’t she had foals in the past?

Also, for those of you in warmer climates…
first off, its a law to have shelter available nov to april
second, winters are brutal and can be below freezing for a month or two.
Having horses out in a round pen with no shelter is animal cruelty both in my opinion and by law. If they were blanketed, as the neighbor said they were not, it would at least be a bit more help.

There is some serious help that PP needs. Both in advice and physical help to get her farm up to legal code.
I also hope people do not encourage her to breed her horses. Is the quality that exeptional?
A single woman in these northern climates on a minimal salary has a tough go. Keeping a farm is not easy, its a lot of physical work.

[azeventer]

[QUOTE=mbm;5148625]
sure, but there are not many facts yet… which is what some of keep trying to say…

we know very little and should wait to see what the rest of the story is before passing judgement.

the prior “abuse” was for inadequate shelter. while it may be the law in that state to have a 3 sided shelter - it is not cruelty in my mind to not have it. horses can, and do, live out without shelter and have for eons. (i actually think it is cruel to over blanket)

Exactly. I don’t know when the law changed in Maine, but back in the 70’s, when I was growing up there, none of the barns where I rode had official, 3 sided shelters for the horses. The horses were out in pasture, all the time, except in the bitterest of weather. There was the side of the barn as a wind break, a stand of trees and a gully…that was their shelter. They were not clipped, almost never blanketed unless there was an unusual issue/ older horse thing. They were wooly mammoths all winter, and they were FINE! Happy as can be! But, maybe that means I only rode with abusive trainers? I guess that’s what some of you will assume…

They were also checked daily, brought in for feeding twice a day, had hay available at all times. The trees/barn served as shelter. I agree, horses not adequately fed, stuck in a field or a paddock with no windbreak, or too small to move around…that’s neglect. But don’t know if that is the case in this situation…no one knows for sure that PP ONLY kept her horses in a round pen…

ok, back to lurking for me. I’ve said my piece. Nothing more to say until more info is available

[fivehorses]

[QUOTE=mbm;5148625]

the prior “abuse” was for inadequate shelter. while it may be the law in that state to have a 3 sided shelter - it is not cruelty in my mind to not have it. horses can, and do, live out without shelter and have for eons. (i actually think it is cruel to over blanket) .[/QUOTE]

It might not be cruelty in your mind because you don’t live in NH or Maine.
Hello, at my place, the temps with windchill can get up to -50f, not the norm for sure, but never getting above freezing for a month or two is quite the norm.

PP has done nothing to correct that issue. Her structures collapsed and none have been built to comply.
SHe has phyiscal issues I understand, yet takes in more horses.
SHe wants to breed horses, yet does not have the money for vet care, nor the facilities that a foal might require or need.
Some of these things are hard for me to reconcile.
I probably don’t like the way many of you keep your horses if you think the pictures and video we saw are acceptable horsekeeping.
You might not like the law, might not think it is necessary, but it is the law. Usually, not always, there is a reason for laws.
Maine is not sonoma county temps.
Az eventer, did you maybe come to think that some horses didn’t do well, and that is why Maine enacted this law?

And horses living outdoors for eons…please, we have domesticated them, living in a round pen is not the same as being in a mountain range with natural cover. And, it is still a hard life, and many of them don’t survive it either.

I appreciate you guys wanting to support her, but to defend some of what presents as facts is really stretching it for me.

[Equilibrium]

[QUOTE=Timex;5147880]
i’m going to go ahead and apologize now, for not being perfect, as apparently so many of you are, and therefore capable of passing judgement on a person whom you don’t know. And, since I don’t know her either, except here, I’m going to wait until a few more FACTS (ever heard of them?) are known before jumping the gun.

And, for the record - the SPCA has been called on me before. Because whoever it was didn’t think I fed my horses (I had to be at work at 5am, so i fed in the dark, and left extra hay in the barn, which no one would be able to see from the road), and they didn’t like how my horses were standing around ‘not doing anything’. Like what, parcheesi? A rousing game of charades? No, no charges were filed. but if they were, would I have the $$ to fight it in court? uh, probably not. Paying what would be a nominal fee, in comparison to attorney’s fees, would be better than being thousands of dollars in debt. Is that what happened in PP’s prior conviction? Well, I don’t know. And, I dare say, neither does anyone else. Heck, shy of 1 person, no one has ever seen her place. And, i don’t know that person from Adam. Nor does anyone else, yet some of you are so willing to take that person’s word. Not calling that poster a liar, but it certainly is a possibility, isn’t it? Thomas could be a sex offender. Jetsmom could be a bank robber. Equilibrium could be a chronic alcoholic with multiple manslaughter convictions. In all 3 cases, probably not. But, could be. Catch my drift, guys? None of us know what really has gone on. None of us know what happens at PP’s place on a day to day basis. So, rather than jumping to conclusions - either way - why don’t we all just sit on our happy little typing hands and WAIT a minute, or 2, and let things get settled. PP will get home, and either get charged, formally (rather than by the Cothers with nothing better to do with thier time, apparently) or she’ll get her horses back. Hate to be the grown-up voice of reason around here, but somebody’s got to do it… ;)[/QUOTE]

Geez, Timex, it was only 1 manslaughter conviction!

But yes, point taken. None of us know who anybody is really. And I am also reserving judgement for when PP gets home. But I do really think she needs to get some things organized for the saftey of her horses and for her life. And maybe horses don’t need shelters per say, but maybe rug them up and let them be comfortable at least. Because people keep saying it isn’t necessary for horses to be in shelters in winter, but most of the horses are free to roam which is a huge difference than being in a pen. My mares normally winter out in woodchip pens with no shelter. They are rugged up with a round bale in front of them and most of the time seem happier than the ones inside.

I just hope this gets resolved for PP in one form or another.

Terri

[azeventer]

fivehorses…I agree that horses should not be out in winter without any shelter. I just don’t agree that a human built, 3 sided shelter is the ONLY definition of what can be acceptable SHELTER from the elements. Trees, barn sides, depending on where they are placed can serve just as well. BUT, I agree there are many ignorant people out there with no common sense, so the law actually requiring a three sided shelter is necessary. I have no problem with the law. I am not necessarily defending PP, or her horse keeping practices, obviously there are problems, or the situation wouldn’t have gotten to this point. I just don’t feel I have enough solid facts to burn her at the stake just yet. Facts enough to be concerned? Definitely. But living in a junky yard with a generator for power does not make her UNABLE to adequately care for her horses. Was she adequately caring for them? don’t know, need to see the OFFICIAL police report, or the property for myself, again, NOT just news reports and interviews of disgruntled neighbors.

and you are more than welcome to see how I keep MY horse now. He is boarded, the facility is www.carefreefarms.net. It is clean, he is well fed, well supplemented, well vetted, well shod, clipped and blanketed as needed, based on where he lives and what i do with him now. Still going strong at 19years old. I just don’t assume that MY way of keeping horses is the ONLY way, and maybe you shouldn’t assume that if we are not willing to immediately vilify PP, we must keep our own horses in horrid conditions.

ok, I’m just getting cranky now. Maybe this is why i rarely post…

[Mozart]

So. When the next poster starts thread after thread about their dire financial situation, how they are clearly struggling to maintain their property and then in the next breath start threads about breeding, taking on more horse, buying more tack, show clothes, etc…are people going to be brave enough to say "hang on, should you really be doing that? or are they going to continue to condone and not point out the glaring inconsistencies.

I have to say that on more than one occasion I resisted posting on one of PP’s thread when I really wanted to say…“come on, be realistic”. But I felt it was none of my business. In retrospect, I guess that was the wrong thing to do. Maybe if more people were more frank…it would not have gone this far.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I am going to take a moment on this thread to thank the 17 memebers of this board that took the time to write me thoughtful PMs about their PERSONAL, REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES WITH PP. I understand that you all have had personal experiences with PP, and that you don’t want to drag the dirty laundry out onto the board.

This is not a way any horse should be kept. Much less more than a handful with two stallions that are, each and every season, being prayed upon that they breed the mares.

This is not vilifying a person. This is observing the obvious that someone is absolutely, 100% not prepared to care for the number of horses she has, financially AND otherwise.

I hope AC is able to work with PP to get her property in order, and to geld both stallions, who are in no place to be bred (or even dreamed of bred) to such mares.

[moonlightride]

Does she have a couple random backyard grade type of stallions or some nicely bred shown individuals/or rare breed?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Arcadien;5148357]
Okay, I went from hoping against hope that PP would show up here to defend herself with the full story -

To hoping that even after any legal ramifications of her posting here are nullified, she doesn’t bother.

Because NONE OF YOU DESERVE IT.

Just watched an interesting show on the Romans, where I shuddered in horror at the obvious glee in the actor-spectator faces when the complete stranger was torn apart by the lions or set on fire and burnt to death in the arena.

Then I recalled this thread, and realized -

We apparently haven’t changed. Apparently not most of us.

BURN you witch, BURN!!! Yeeehawwwww… (decades later, oh, you mean she wasn’t actually a witch? bummer for her… but it was fun to cheer on her roasting, wasn’t it!!!)

PP, do what you have to do, but please, don’t ever bother to give us obvious witch burning spectators a single clue. Judging by the majority of posts on this thread, we very obviously do not deserve it.

Your lack of information will of course irritate the spectators, but once they are done circling the blackened stake with your as of yet unjudged remains, they will get bored, I assure you.

A new victim will be the latest joy ride by then, I assure you!

Even more likely, the new victim will quite most likely be -

-cue shuddering, yet delighted sounds of feigned horror from the future spectators! -

ONE OF THEM[/QUOTE] By heck, you’ve got a vivid imagination and it seems blessed with a healthy helping of pure hypocrisy!

Full of self virtue whilst raging and pillaging against those who happen to think that if the news story is as reported and the information is taken at face value, that abandoning horses with no food and water in mud in a shabbily constructed “fencing” arrangement is unacceptable and is causing unnecessary suffering and is neglect.

To do it when giving it “big talk” about how great you are and bragging about the stallions you have and foals you keep breeding is evidence of a decision to perpetuate the state of ‘ignorance is bliss’. To do that knowing you’ve problems and you’re being watched by your neighbours and Animal Control whilst swanning off to WEG is denial.

So it seems to me that at best denial isn’t just a river in Egypt. Seemingly it’s on a small patch of land in Maine.

It seems to me though that those who are saying that they can understand why in those circumstances the authorities are called and that it’s a good thing for prompt action are in the land of reality and expressing a logical and understandable opinion.

Cruelty and neglect and suffering comes in many guises. It makes no difference at all to the horse if it’s caused by stupidity, ignorance, illness or lack of funds.

I’m a huge believer that people are personally responsible for the decisions they take and what they do. If you make the wrong decisions and do the wrong thing then you pay the consequences.

When there’s a dumb animal in the equation and suffering then to be honest I care more to protect and defend that than the dumb owner.

You might not like that I think that but get over yourself with your sanctimonious judging and negative portrayal and gross exaggeration of how I and others might judge!

[Lieslot]

@Fivehorses

It might not be cruelty in your mind because you don’t live in NH or Maine.
Hello, at my place, the temps with windchill can get up to -50f, not the norm for sure, but never getting above freezing for a month or two is quite the norm.

PP has done nothing to correct that issue. Her structures collapsed and none have been built to comply.
SHe has phyiscal issues I understand, yet takes in more horses.
SHe wants to breed horses, yet does not have the money for vet care, nor the facilities that a foal might require or need.
Some of these things are hard for me to reconcile.
I probably don’t like the way many of you keep your horses if you think the pictures and video we saw are acceptable horsekeeping.
You might not like the law, might not think it is necessary, but it is the law. Usually, not always, there is a reason for laws.
Maine is not sonoma county temps.
Az eventer, did you maybe come to think that some horses didn’t do well, and that is why Maine enacted this law?

And horses living outdoors for eons…please, we have domesticated them, living in a round pen is not the same as being in a mountain range with natural cover. And, it is still a hard life, and many of them don’t survive it either.

I appreciate you guys wanting to support her, but to defend some of what presents as facts is really stretching it for me.

I totally agree.

Also, it starts to read that any one in financial difficulties who loves their horses with all their heart, has x of them, but can’t provide any necessary structures or appropriate fencing, needs not to worry, coz the loving people of COTH, will not suggest you downsize your herd or considered leasing them out until back on your feet, ‘no’, they will fund your shelters & fencing and if they are close enough they’ll help you erect them.

I have no doubt PP loves her horses, that doesn’t mean she had the appropriate number.
I honestly would love a herd of 4 rather then the 2 I have. But if I did so, the 2 I have now, wouldn’t be living in as much luxury as they do. Because I love & respect the ones I have, I do not add unless I win the lottery tomorrow.

[SmokenMirrors]

I read the news article and the long 22 pages this has gone on. The first thing I thought is, if this was not a “beloved member of COTH” then many of you would be all over her like flies on horse apples, and many would not of been as nice or caring or willing to help as you are currently. I find it odd that a few names who usually just love to jump a person when they are down are not present to rip PP apart. Birds of a feather and all that I’m sure…

A few say she has fibro and can’t get around as well. If that is the point, then why have as many horses to take care of? She should know her limits and her problems that are medical and act accordingly, not say well I have this and continue to have more than she can take care of. Even when I had major surgery, I ensured the people where I boarded were taking care of my horses and hobbling around EVERY DAY to make sure they were okay. We humans are the caretakers of the horses we get, they depend on us for adequate food, water, shelter, basic vet care, farrier work, etc. and if we can’t do it, we shouldn’t own then, simple as that. There is no acceptable excuse when a living, breathing creature is suffering because the human who is suppose to be taking care of it is ignorant or makes excuses continually. And even if PP was at one time a wonderful horse woman, she isn’t now and she has to own up to what she did and face the music. Her not coming on here is proof enough.

Someone brought up fencing. I have oak board fencing and have had a draft horse go through it. Same with the metal doors on my stalls. However, when we make the honest effort to ensure that they can’t get out as easily nor impregnate mares more readily or get into traffic or on our neighbors lawn, etc. then it is again, an effort we do when we genuinely love our animals. I would never own 4 equines, much less one, if I could not give it all the basics they need. Charity starts at home…again, if you can’t afford proper fencing, don’t have the horses!!

And she is heating her house with kerosene, etc. Again, your health and well being should come first. Don’t take more than you can handle and while she may love horses, so do many other people who do not have any and take care of themselves and wait to get one till they are financially and physically able to properly take care of one. But she is a good horse woman right? She is knowledgeable right? No excuse. None for letting your horses begin to look like hers did in the photo’s and someone had to step in.

[BaroquePony]

Good post SmokenMirrors :yes:

[justonemore]

[QUOTE=Mozart;5148657]
So. When the next poster starts thread after thread about their dire financial situation, how they are clearly struggling to maintain their property and then in the next breath start threads about breeding, taking on more horse, buying more tack, show clothes, etc…are people going to be brave enough to say "hang on, should you really be doing that? or are they going to continue to condone and not point out the glaring inconsistencies.

I have to say that on more than one occasion I resisted posting on one of PP’s thread when I really wanted to say…“come on, be realistic”. But I felt it was none of my business. In retrospect, I guess that was the wrong thing to do. Maybe if more people were more frank…it would not have gone this far.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been following this thread since yesterday and I keep thinking exactly this. I don’t know how many times I read her posts and wondered what the heck she was thinking…or what people were thinking by “helping” her get in even deeper.

I also don’t know why so many people are suprised at what they see in the pics (I haven’t been able to watch the video so many there’s more there that I’m not seeing) She posted every single detail about the living conditions. The falling down shelters, the always flooded “mare barn”, the fencing, the lack of water and electricity. Hauling water from a frozen brook all winter with a sled and a makeshift harness?? She was struggling and I don’t think she was hiding any of it…what I see is pretty much exactly what I envisioned from reading her posts. She had a way of putting a humorous (poetic?) spin on things and an entertaining way of writing, but the facts were all RIGHT THERE for everyone to read.

I do wish for the best possible outcome for PP and her horses.

[Graymaresrule]

[quote=Tamara in TN;5148035]

@Wayside;5148031

another breeder I know carefully edits out all the nasty fencing and buildings and has them,just as you say,pointed toward the neighbors place

Tamara in TN

A few weeks ago I found a website listing two of my horses and two or three of PatO’s as being on their farm in FL and for sale!

[shawnee_Acres]

I just saw this last night and was a bit shocked by the whole thing. Here is my two cents worth. The horses in question do not looked starved, or even thin in my opinion. They appear healthy and happy (except the one that is obviosuly being forced into a trailer by someone that probably doesn’t know what they are doing!). However, the conditions are NOT conditions I would expect from someone that is breeding and raising horses. Yes, the press has a way of showing only what THEY want to show. But that “fencing” is hardly fence, would not hold ANY horse that I know of and IS neglect insomuch as not only are the horses at risk, BUT the fact they can and do get out, get onto other peoples property AND could get into a road and cause a serious wreck makes it 100% wrong in my book. Honestly, I have had several occasions over the years to go and see people’s “farms” that post on this board. Now I am not saying they ALL have bad livign situations, but honestly, many that I have visited were not at all what they sounded like on their posts! THis is more prevalent than any of us may realize. I am NOT RICH, actualy I struggle month to month with my small horse business sometimes. Winter is very hard as my income goes WAY down. But if you visit my farm, you will see well kept fencing, a well constructed barn, everything mowed and looking neat and feed and hay in my barn. I feel that if you are a “business” you should conduct yourself and your facilities as such, and PP is acting as a business in standing stallions at stud and breeding and raising foals. The thing I do NOT like about shipped semen (among other things) is the fact the buyer often never sees the horses, the facilities or even the stallion in person and so people standing stallions can and sometimes do have situations like this. Now I cannot speak for PP as I do not know if she does or does not ship semen, but my stallion stands LIVE COVER ONLY. THis is for a variety of reasons, but not the least of which is that I want to meet the person breeding the foal FACE TO FACE. I want to SEE the mare and the condition of the mare so I can feel good about the foal and its care. I want the breeder to SEE my horse, his disposition, his movment and my management of my famr and animals, not some video that makes things look oh so different than they really are! I am NOT accusing PP of this as I really don’t know what she does or does not do as far as breeding/marketing goes, but jsut saying in this day and age one can “hide” behind their internet name and paint a picture that is not true! I welcome ANYONE to see my facility, to see my horses. Is it perfect, heck no! It is all no climb fencing and beautiful cobblestoned barn aisles, no way! But our horseguard fencing is tight, safe and hot and our gate don’t look like a truck ran over them! I feel sorr for PP to have had this thrown out in public, espcially when she is attending such a wonderful event of a lifetime, I only wish I culd have gone to WEG, but my business expenses cane first and if I couldn’t leave here and feel that my horsees were being cared for, then I wouldn’t go. Perhaps this will be a wakeup call to her and she will see that she needs to shift some priorities in her life. Perhaps getting some counseling will help her to go forward in a more productive and organized fashion

[MistyBlue]

A few weeks ago I found a website listing two of my horses and two or three of PatO’s as being on their farm in FL and for sale!

LOL…whoa! Did you two call and ask to come see your horses? :lol: :eek: :lol:

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=moonlightride;5148663]
Does she have a couple random backyard grade type of stallions or some nicely bred shown individuals/or rare breed?[/QUOTE]

She has an older stallion that is part arab that was at one point registered in a lower book of RPSI, but has not been active with that registry for 5 years or so (IIRC, she said continuing with his licensing was cost prohibitive). She also has his son (I believe the pinto one with the matted mane) that she bred herself, and has been kept intact because “he is showing better type than his father”. To my knowledge, the son was never registered, and is not likely registerable with much at this point.

I think PP thinks she has a group of breeding-quality horses, and imagine that when she got the Spanish Colonial filly (cream colored one in the pics) that she thought picked up a rare breed that needed to pass on its genes. She has, in the past, touted herself as a “quality first, color second” breeder that seeks to breed dressage types. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that one of the best aspects of her breeding program seems to be that the mares are not particularly fertile. Here are just a few threads she’s started on the subject of breeding her mares/acquiring new horses:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263155
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=258817 (this one, I find to be particularly alarming, [Crestline…])
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260495
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=257046
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255614
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=254274
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251454
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209606

Neglect, animal cruelty, poor fencing, etc. aside, I do hope AC has her geld the young stallion before they consider returning him to her. No need for such a horse to be procreating in today’s world…

[Hattie]

I hope this situation works out for the horses and PP gets the help she needs.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I was about to edit my post, but here’s something else to consider.

I remember a thread earlier this year about how she had 2 mares in heat turned out with one of the stallions (could have been July '10?). So who’s to say none of those mares are in foal? I’m almost positive she wouldn’t have had them checked by a vet, so it’s possible there are one or two mares there that are indeed, in foal.

I think we were all waiting for next summer’s “OMG, CRAP, YAY” thread to find out if there was another “surprise” in the field one day…