Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5158475]
Are we sure the neighbors are not the ones that agreed to check on the horses?[/QUOTE]

For the love of…

All the people who keep reminding everyone that PP is innocent until proven guilty*, do you think you could extend the same courtesy to her neighbors, who from the article called Animal Control and followed their advice? Now it’s not only laying in wait for PP to go away to jump at the chance to call AC, we have a mighty conspiracy theory of the neighbors being the pet sitters and then calling AC on the “abandoned” animals?
Seriously? Seriously?

  • unless you disagree with the verdict because it’s unfair, of course. It’s comical reading the frothy “until proven guilty OMG” followed by the “that previous animal cruelty conviction was BS OMG”.

LavenderFarm, you are clearly a mere babe in arms compared to me. :slight_smile: I grew up when people still had lever pumps on backyard wells.

The US Forest service has some really efficient hand pumped wells in places where there is no electricity. I was amazed at how much water one was able to get with one or two pumps–and I don’t recall that they required priming.

I wouldn’t be surprised if many Amish had hand pumped water wells.

“Frost your muffins”…that’s a new one for me. I need to think about it. Is it anything like “kiss my grits”?

IIRC PP mentioned at one time about a year or so ago that she was working towards going off the grid. And that to do so she was getting a generator and I think she also mentioned a hand pump for her well.
if she did do that (and if I am remembering correctly…which is always a crapshoot with me anyways) then electricity nor a generator is necessary to get water. But you;d have to know there’s a hand pump for the well and that you need to prime and pump up water for use.
Now I have no idea if she did swap to a hand pump for the well, but if so then it might be possible that either a neighbor or AC tried the regular routes for getting water (turning on visible spigots) and weren’t able to get water. Most people assume there’s working water as opposed to pump water, so is it possible that’s where AC got the idea that there wasn’t any water available? That they meant the water wasn’t working as opposed to just refilling troughs?
And maybe that’s why the neighbors mentioned the generator in the first place…otherwise I can’t see where that would come up in conversation. But I can understand it if someone tried to turn on a spigot or hose, got nothing and a neighbor mentioning, “Oh, she uses a generator and not regular service.”

Just thinking out loud…have no idea where I was going with that.

vineyridge - thanks! You just brought back an old memory for me. As a kid, my parents had a “place in the country” where we went on weekends. Old clapboard house, no running water, no indoor plumbing, no heat, an old wood-fired cook stove that my mom actually cooked on, and that old hand pump for water. My dad put a 55-gallon barrel on a little roof he built at back porch and that was the shower. One only showered after a hot day which warmed the water. There was also that adorable outhouse!

So, yes, there is the hand pump … but I’m here to tell you that pumping enough water for 6 horses twice a day would get older than me very fast!

Thanks again for that mental blast from the past!

Through my work with a canine advocacy group I was involved in a case where AC (much like the Murder Bassetts) seized a breeder’s Cane Corsos claiming that they violated the city’s ban on Pit Bulls. The breeder had previously been fined when one of them got loose, so he was on their radar. He naievely went down to the pound and offered AKC papers as proof that they were not Pit Bulls. He was run out and had multiple misdemeanors filed against him for violations of vicious dog laws (owning more than one vicious dog, failure to insure a vicious dog, failure to properly house a vicious dog etc.) all of which failed to apply since his breed was not the one labeled “inherently vicious”.

He was poor and had no means to “fight the system”. A fact that made this very case, common, common practice.

Our group got him a lawyer and it actually went to court while his beautiful dogs got kennel cough confined in a vicious dog ward and were refused veterinary treatment. He did get his dogs back (thin and very very sick). And through the press generated publicity, the head of AC was run out of town on a rail and his practices exposed.

The point (sorry for the length) is that some of us that actually work IN the system know how corrupt AC can be. Giving cop wanna-bes badges and power to ruin people’s lives can and does end very very badly.

[QUOTE=CrazyGuineaPigLady;5158359]
BTW, Guinea Pig vets aren’t exactly cheap, nor is their day to day requirements. :D:[/QUOTE]

Now that’s the truth. One year my bill from my exotics vet (for my guinea pigs) was bigger than that from my horses’ vet. I’m not kidding.

When you take on the care of animals, any animal, you have to have the resources to take care of anything routine as well as unforseen. In spite of the best intentions, some people find it gets beyond them and they become overwhelmed. Hopefully they’ll recognize it and get help before care of the animal(s) suffers. Don’t know what happened in this specific case, just commenting in general.

[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;5158585]
Through my work with a canine advocacy group I was involved in a case where AC (much like the Murder Bassetts) seized a breeder’s Cane Corsos claiming that they violated the city’s ban on Pit Bulls.

He was poor and…[/QUOTE]

Then he shouldn’t be breeding. These dogs aren’t easily bought, he’s poor but he’s breeding expensive dogs? Not buying it. He’s not poor.

[QUOTE=chaltagor;5158608]
Then he shouldn’t be breeding. These dogs aren’t easily bought, he’s poor but he’s breeding expensive dogs? Not buying it. He’s not poor.[/QUOTE]

Have to agree here. And for my money, when your Cane Corso gets loose, you should a) be on AC’s radar and b) lose the dog(s). People get into a breed like that with the specific intention of being taken more seriously - then piss and moan when the authorities are among those who take them more seriously.

And completely off topic, sorry. Insane though this thread has become - really, debating over door-answering?

[QUOTE=AppJumpr08;5157636]
The animals weren’t seized by the town - they were seized by the state. So unfortunately that puts the cost factor into a whole different bracket than it would if it were a town seizure.[/QUOTE]

I’m no too impressed with the state of ME ACO. I know of a bona fide hoarder who years ago had 40 something arabians and spotted donkeys and moved to a town near Belfast Maine (unless she has since packed up again and left because the bill collectors go serious). Here in MA she had skin and bones horses, 5-7 stallions, mos of whom were sons of her stallion and who weren’t even halter broken, unlceaned stalls with mountains of manure, no water in heat of summer. The SPCA was involved. There is no reason to think it would be any different in Maine? Why hasn’t/didn’t the state gone after her? Sickening.

[QUOTE=sketcher;5158637]
I’m no too impressed with the state of ME ACO. I know of a bona fide hoarder who years ago had 40 something arabians and spotted donkeys and moved to a town near Belfast Maine (unless she has since packed up again and left because the bill collectors go serious). Here in MA she had skin and bones horses, 5-7 stallions, mos of whom were sons of her stallion and who weren’t even halter broken, unlceaned stalls with mountains of manure, no water in heat of summer. The SPCA was involved. There is no reason to think it would be any different in Maine? Why hasn’t/didn’t the state gone after her? Sickening.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you. The AWP is lacking in many ways. Not sure if she’s up here or not? Haven’t heard anything, but I haven’t gone looking either.

For humans is it a CBC/Chem Panel that can tell if a human is dehydrated?
Wonder about the blood drawn from PP’s horses? If bloodwork shows the animals not dehydrated - then what?

AC wanted blood drawn - I guess is usual - but what would they be looking for?
Anemia? What else? This info used in court, right?

How long after the neighbors called was the blood drawn? A long delay just to build a court case would not be in the horse’s best interests.

I suppose they could also be testing for blood glucose levels, which might indicate when they ate last. Alsochemical indications as to if the horses were breaking down muscle tissue because they were starving. In people, an A1C test indicates the blood sugar levels over the last month. If they can do this on horses, it might show what’s been going on over a longer term.

[QUOTE=chaltagor;5158608]
Then he shouldn’t be breeding. These dogs aren’t easily bought, he’s poor but he’s breeding expensive dogs? Not buying it. He’s not poor.[/QUOTE]

And those dogs are a lot bigger than pit bulls. And bred for fighting. Dangerous dogs with an owner w/o sufficient funds to pay for damages if they kill a kid or an adult.

I just wonder how many people on this thread who said the neighbors should have done something have ever themselves gone over and repaired/helped out/etc a neighbor who keeps to herself/himself? I’ve bought round bales and offered to pay vet bills for people who were totally offended that I would think there was anything wrong with their horses/dogs/cats. And they refused to let me pay for vet spaying/gelding animals.

[QUOTE=LavenderFarm;5158505]
Maybe some of you live in the city or are on city water. In the country, most of us get our water from wells. Sunk in the well is a well pump. The pump pumps water from the well into pipes that run to the house, barn, outside spigots, wherever. The well pump runs on electricity. Without electricity, the pump does not pump and there is no water.

The first article said PP hadn’t had public electric service in a year. Without an operating (fueled) generator, there would be no water in the hose if the neighbor did pick it up to fill the tank.[/QUOTE]

unless of course there is a holding tank and a gravity fed system.

[QUOTE=Bogey2;5158024]
it’s not her, thanks to MOD 1 for clearing it up![/QUOTE]

?? where did Mod 1 clear this up?

[QUOTE=Coanteen;5158536]
For the love of…

All the people who keep reminding everyone that PP is innocent until proven guilty*, do you think you could extend the same courtesy to her neighbors, who from the article called Animal Control and followed their advice? Now it’s not only laying in wait for PP to go away to jump at the chance to call AC, we have a mighty conspiracy theory of the neighbors being the pet sitters and then calling AC on the “abandoned” animals?
Seriously? Seriously?[/QUOTE]

I am not choosing sides, but putting out there several things that are possibilities, that we just don’t know. I felt from the get go that who ever was “taking care” of the horses may have been who called. Weeks of seeing how the horses were living, and what had to be done to care for them, may have been mentally overwhelming, and they finally decided, this was crazy.

There are just too many wild possibilities to decide anything, but I guess we can all have fun being novelists for a few days.

question: animal control says horses were without water for 12 hours. .then they request said horses to go *another * 12 hours without water so they can do a blood test?

that does not make any kind of humane sense.

also, how do they know the horses had been without water for 12 hours?

eta: re: comment about OMG innocent til proven guilty and OMG prior conviction was wrong.

not sure who you are talking about. but what i said was -> innocent till proven guilty and, even tho it is the law, leaving horses out in the winter without a shelter is not cruel in the real sense. that was my point.

I have been reading different ‘what happened’ and although I’d like to spend the day on coth, I cannot.

can anyone please link the news reports.

I am very curious to your statements mbm and would like to see links validating them.
other people thru out the day have also mentioned, aco said this, neighbor said this, etc, etc

links please so we can be sure we are looking at the actual reports rather than people’s interpretation of the reports which reminds me of the telephone game.
thank you.

I thought I had been following the most recent updates, and don’t seem to be hearing or reading the same reports or at least not seeing where this 12 hour without water withdrawl is documented. so, if I am missing those news links, it sure would be nice to have them in one spot, if anyone is so inclined, and then we or the person can go back and edit them and add as they come out. I hope I am making sense.

There seems to be lots more conjecture today than in the past, and well, I just like seeing documentation to corroborate what people are posting.

MBM, hello, I don’t know where you live, but in MAINE, the law requires a 3 sided shelter from November 1 to April 1. Period, end of story, goodbye.

Granted it was not november 1 yet, but it did not seem that PP had a 3 sided shelter last winter, and no appearences that she was going to have one this nov 1.

so when I read your comment “leaving horses out in the winter without a shelter is not cruel in the real sense. that was my point.” In Maine, it is the law to have a 3 sided shelter. end of story. I respectfully have to say when people make that kind of comment, it shows their ignorance of state of maine law, and conditions in an enviroment different than their own. It also deflates, at least for me, your other points of discussion.

Oh, just saw where mbm lives…sonoma county…do you even get frost in the ground in somoma county? Do you know that dedham, maine is zone 5, with average minimum temps to be-20 to -10? and frost probably is at least 3’? Sonoma county is zone 9 and 10 with average minimum temps to be 20-30 degrees, yeah, I don’t think its cruel to leave horses without shelter in sonoma county either, but maine, well, its just a wee bit different climate wise. This information was looked up on USDA website and arborday.