Three sides, but no roof? Or is roofing not spelled out in the law? Why couldn’t a three sided shelter be composed of some 4x4s and tarps? Or, for that matter, some steel pipe and tarps?
you missed my point. my point was:
it is not cruel to have horses out in the winter without shelters - even tho in maine you can be fined for “cruelty” by not having shelters.
in other words: it is NOT cruelty to leave a horse out with out a shelter - even tho in Maine the law says it is.
clear?
eta: i live in CA, but spent winters in Ontario canada. -40c and all that. (and yes, i had my horse with me and we ride in the winter)
i also linked to an ontario gov article on housing horses in the winter - they say that horses are cold climate animals and do quite well in the cold. down to x degrees (cant remember - -20c?) they dont need anything special. below that they need either extra hay or shelter to keep in the same condition.
what i posted about the 12 hours is what others posted and i was questioning that comment and it makes no sense to me.
i also have not criticized animal control or the neighbors. as i have said many times - we dont have the facts yet so we should not judge.
I think it is cruel to leave a horse without a shelter even in northern VA, and mine all have 3 sides and a roof, BUT I do think it would be ok if that “shelter” is dense woods, ravine, etc., not just man-made.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5158983]
Three sides, but no roof? Or is roofing not spelled out in the law? Why couldn’t a three sided shelter be composed of some 4x4s and tarps? Or, for that matter, some steel pipe and tarps?[/QUOTE]
I’m assuming a roof is implied…
Tarps get battered to bits in a windy New England winter. (I see you’re from Mississippi!)
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5158983]
Why couldn’t a three sided shelter be composed of some 4x4s and tarps? Or, for that matter, some steel pipe and tarps?[/QUOTE]
I would think a tarp would collapse under 3’ of snow if just stretched across. On he building I described, with roof supports every foot, then maybe a tarp across would be ok if well tacked down.
info on shelters
maine law
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/7/title7sec4015.html
info on how horses handle cold
http://umaine.edu/publications/1007e/
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info-coldweather-man.htm
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5159001]
I think it is cruel to leave a horse without a shelter even in northern VA, and mine all have 3 sides and a roof, BUT I do think it would be ok if that “shelter” is dense woods, ravine, etc., not just man-made.[/QUOTE]
i guess i dont agree. horses are cold weather animals and cold weather doesn’t really bother them as long as they have adequate hay - if they don’t have adequate hay they will need some kind of shelter or they will lose weight trying to stay warm.
btw: i make sure my horses have shelter and i am in CA. but i don’t think it is cruelty to not provide them as long as the horse have food.
mbm, I am sorry, I guess our ideas on keeping horses are just different.
Each animal is different. To keep young.old or an ill horse outside in freezing rain, and wet snow with high winds and temps below 0 to me is just not good animal husbandry.
I like my animals coming into spring looking the same way they looked coming into winter.
I think one of my first memories is my dad telling me how the horse needed more hay in the winter to burn and keep warm.
Having 10 horses, I can tell you each one is totally different in how they handle the weather. I can’t feed some of them enough to keep them in proper weight without keeping blankets on. If I kept those horses out, without blankets, I’d have skeletons in the spring.
I appreciate you lived in ontario, although you now live in sonoma, but I think our ideas on horsekeeping are vastly different.
I have to say, I am glad your horses now live in sonoma.
[QUOTE=mbm;5159002]
found this searching for something else
http://www.nickernews.net/foul-play-fair-play.aspx[/QUOTE]
This fiasco is the leading reason I have no faith in Maine’s AWP.
fivehorses - i didnt say i kept my horses out in -40 degree weather without shelters. as i said i have shelters for my horses as they like to decide to come in or not.
but just because i chose to take care of my horses in one way does not mean i think it is CRUELTY to have horses out in the winter (even in ontario CA) without shelter as long as they have adequate hay.
i am saying that the science says horses are fine in very cold weather. how i chose to manage my horses has nothing to do with it nor should my housekeeping be judged by an article by the Govt of ON etc.
what i am getting at is that i don’t hold it against PP if her prior issues was lack of shelter as to me that should not be listed as Cruelty.
[QUOTE=mbm;5158986]
you missed my point. my point was:
it is not cruel to have horses out in the winter without shelters - even tho in maine you can be fined for “cruelty” by not having shelters.
in other words: it is NOT cruelty to leave a horse out with out a shelter - even tho in Maine the law says it is.
clear?.[/QUOTE]
No, not really. You think it isn’t cruel, but the state of Maine does…hmmm, now who do you think I put more credibility in…you in sonoma county, or Maine legislators?
and for what its worth, I do think it is cruel to leave a horse out without access to shelter. But, my opinion doesn’t matter, the state law of maine does.
fivehorses read the articles i posted. it isn’t what i believe - it is what various universities have said its true. horse do fine in cold weather as long as they have :
a) adequate hay OR
b)shelter
i have also seen this to be true during teh time i was in CAN. altho my horse was kept indoors, clipped with layered blankets etc. etc.
it looks like the maine law is written about livestock and animals in general… not specifically about horses - which are cold weather animals.
ps - i have been very careful to not make any judgments, assumptions or personal comments about anyone here. i would appreciate the same in return. thanks.
Where did I say you left your horses out in -40 degree temps?
secondly, from the link you posted, it clearly discusses how much more fuel is required to keep livestock in cold climate.
http://umaine.edu/publications/1007e/
maybe this is why maine and other new england states have a law requiring shelter in winter to help horses conserve some of their reserves?
I will repeat, I don’t think our ideas on keeping horses is the same.
yes, like i have said numerous times horse will do fine in the cold (as per the university on Ontario and also of Maine) as long as they have:
a) adequate hay OR
b) shelter
you have no idea what my ideas are on horsekeeping.
the laws for Maine appear to be for all livestock and animals. and like i said - they dont appear to be written specifically for horses - which are cold weather animals. probably other livestock is not.
MBM, I will tell you this. I live in zone 4, and I know how hard it is for my horses to keep weight on in winter.
Their consumption of hay and grain doubles from summer, fall feeding to winter feed. Many are blanketed. I am not talking 2% of their body weight in feed, but for some even more. Additionally, they get beet pulp. To be honest, I call it the gravy train, because I break up their nightime feeding over 3 hours to ensure they get the necessary feed/fuel to keep warm.
I am also very proud of the fact, that come spring, my horses weight is excellent. But, I will also tell you its a lot of work.
Granted, I have more challenges with my older retiree’s, and OTTB than I do my drafts or younger horses. But for anyone to think because horses are cold weathered animals is missing the point. Yeah, cold weathered around 40-50 degrees, not minus 0 temps ongoing for months.
If you kept a horse clipped in ontario and blanketed, I must say take over my job of keeping 10 horses in condition in zone 4. ok, then we can talk.
I’d also advise you to read the articles you linked.
i am not sure why you are bringing your horsekeeping into this?
of course they will need more food as their need for staying warm increases - this is pretty well laid out in the articles.
i did not say keeping horses out in the cold is the best way to keep them. i said that it doesn’t appear to be cruel to them based on the various reports by universities out there.
i also appears that the maine law is written for ALL animals - not just horses.
anyway, i have repeated myself far too many times here.
i think what i was getting at is pretty clear by now 
ps - i have read the articles -what part do you think i missed?
[QUOTE=fivehorses;5159038]
MBM, I will tell you this. I live in zone 4, and I know how hard it is for my horses to keep weight on in winter.
Their consumption of hay and grain doubles from summer, fall feeding to winter feed. Many are blanketed. I am not talking 2% of their body weight in feed, but for some even more. Additionally, they get beet pulp. To be honest, I call it the gravy train, because I break up their nightime feeding over 3 hours to ensure they get the necessary feed/fuel to keep warm.
I am also very proud of the fact, that come spring, my horses weight is excellent. But, I will also tell you its a lot of work.
Granted, I have more challenges with my older retiree’s, and OTTB than I do my drafts or younger horses. But for anyone to think because horses are cold weathered animals is missing the point. Yeah, cold weathered around 40-50 degrees, not minus 0 temps ongoing for months.
If you kept a horse clipped in ontario and blanketed, I must say take over my job of keeping 10 horses in condition in zone 4. ok, then we can talk.
I’d also advise you to read the articles you linked.[/QUOTE]
I actually think the damp 40-50 degree fall days are harder on them than the 20s and lower in winter. Even if it’s snowing. Obviously if it’s really windy that changes things too. That cold damp nasty 40 degree rain is just brutal.
The problem I have with Maine’s shelter law is that it doesn’t leave any room for horse owners to have a clue.
Common sense and knowledge about the animals you’re caring for should be allowed to play a larger role. Obviously that’s not the LAW in Maine, and the ACO and AWPs’ jobs are to inforce THE LAW how it’s written, but it also allows them to get a bit crazy with the charges if they wish.
One last thing before I go to bed…
your comment…
"horse do fine in cold weather as long as they have :
a) adequate hay OR
b)shelter "
I would like to make it clear, horses need adequate hay and shelter to thrive.
My hard keepers will not thrive on just hay. They just aren’t interested in eating all the hay they would need to be in condition, and I feed NYS 2nd cut hay.
Some horses cannot chew hay or metabolize it…so to make a statement that horses do fine in cold weather(what is cold, temps please?) with adequate hay OR shelter is just too vague for me.
carry on.
Oh, by the way it is raining quite hard, and is about 48 degrees. I can go to sleep knowing my horses are dry and comfortable in their stalls, and not standing outside enduring the rain. At the least, if they had turnouts on, their mass body weight would be dry and they would at least be able to conserve some fuel, or not need to expend more to keep warm.
Taking care of horses is really not rocket science. there are all sorts of books, articles, etc on horsekeeping. Fortunately, there are also state laws to encourage people to do what they should be doing to maintain healthy animals.
This has nothing to do with PP except to mention terrible storm her town couple of months ago.
I am glad the horses are OK but poor pig.
http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/150982.html
Anyway, is one of the reasons my horses have not been stalled/barn-kept.
Sheds need to be made well enough to withstand wind and snow.
Flying debris is so dangerous. In south Texas we have to worry about hurricanes. Tornados of course as well. Whenever we have high winds I pray the sheds are still standing and roofs not peeled off/blowing around.
I’ve read where barns collapse under weight of snow. I guess having sloping roof not a guarantee the snow will slide off before becoming dangerous?
Before the last hurricane we had - I had friends that hauled their horses to open areas - places with no structures/flying metal etc to worry about.
So its kind of “d” if you do and “d” if you don’t.
Oh, the link above - horse was tied to tree late at night? I guess there was a reason for that? Or just more bad journalism/misunderstanding? Seems like any reporting that has the word “horse” in it never makes sense. (It’s late and I am not making much sense either for that matter…)
