[QUOTE=fivehorses;5159049]
One last thing before I go to bed…
your comment…
"horse do fine in cold weather as long as they have :
a) adequate hay OR
b)shelter "
I would like to make it clear, horses need adequate hay and shelter to thrive.
My hard keepers will not thrive on just hay. They just aren’t interested in eating all the hay they would need to be in condition, and I feed NYS 2nd cut hay.
Some horses cannot chew hay or metabolize it…so to make a statement that horses do fine in cold weather(what is cold, temps please?) with adequate hay OR shelter is just too vague for me.
carry on.
Oh, by the way it is raining quite hard, and is about 48 degrees. I can go to sleep knowing my horses are dry and comfortable in their stalls, and not standing outside enduring the rain. At the least, if they had turnouts on, their mass body weight would be dry and they would at least be able to conserve some fuel, or not need to expend more to keep warm.
Taking care of horses is really not rocket science. there are all sorts of books, articles, etc on horsekeeping. Fortunately, there are also state laws to encourage people to do what they should be doing to maintain healthy animals.[/QUOTE]
?
you are taking all this way to personally!
the point was: science says it isn’t cruel to have a horse outside in the cold as long as you feed it enough to maintain its weight.
this does not mean i leave my horses out or i am a bad horsekeeper. nor does it say anything about how you maintain your horses.
Common sense and knowledge about the animals you’re caring for should be allowed to play a larger role. Obviously that’s not the LAW in Maine, and the ACO and AWPs’ jobs are to inforce THE LAW how it’s written, but it also allows them to get a bit crazy with the charges if they wish.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, I don’t think everyone has common sense or knowledge.
There isn’t a law saying and each horse should be locked in a stall…the law says each horse should be provided a space to obtain shelter if they want. That to me is basic animal husbandry, not some over the top law that is asking for ralph lauren fabric lined stalls.
I think that is where you see the law allowing flexibility for those people who want their horses out 24/7…which imo is not bad, and actually healthy and good, and giving the horses the opportunity to get under cover if the horse chooses, and I trust horse common sense more than I do human common sense.
I have 3 horses that share a 12x30 run in(during the day). I will guarrantee you in one herd, 2 will have the run in and not let the other in, so he is always out…by force of his herdmates. Legally, I am ok, since each horse is required a 10x10 space, but in reality this horse does not have access thanks to his rotten herdmates! I, the human need to compensate for that…its part of my job to be my animals steward and care taker.
then I have another group that will stuff 5 in the same run in.
So, yes, individuality and management and knowledge of your herd plays a huge role but I do not believe it should stop there.
to say that common sense and knowledge takes precedent or is a more important consideration than law is making the assumption that everyone has common sense and knowledge.
Unfortunately, people don’t, and that is why we have laws.
to require a 3 sided shelter in maine in winter is not far fetched or over the top. to expect people to do the basic minimums for their animals, well, we know that doesn’t always happen.
Oh I’m well aware. Hence the “remove plastic backing” warning that comes on fruit by the foot. Or “contents hot” on McDonald’s coffee cups.
And I know that’s why simply saying “adequate to keep the animals in question comfortable” shelter isn’t enough. It has to be “three sided with a waterproof roof and dry floor”
But sometimes I wish either people weren’t so stupid, or the governing bodies that exist could give us the benefit of the doubt.
That’s all.
And with that rambling post, I’m off to bed. Clearly I’m up too late to make much sense.
After I sent the post I clicked on the link and it did not work for me either.
I had typed it out - made a mistake. Off to bed…and PP will be again in my prayers tonight.
[QUOTE=ReSomething;5159071]
Oh pooh. Just like the car at the mechanic’s, the link works fine NOW. Glad to provide some amusement here, we could sure use it.[/QUOTE]
Completly off topic, but I’m so glad I’m not the only one!!!
to require a 3 sided shelter in maine in winter is not far fetched or over the top. [/QUOTE]
no one said it was! require a shelter. fine! but to say it is CRUELTY to have a horse outside is, at least to those at Univ of ON and others - not cruelty at all. in fact they sai horses can do quite well as long as they have food/water to maintain body weight.
even tho it is the law, leaving horses out in the winter without a shelter is not cruel in the real sense. that was my point.
Generally speaking, unless migrating herd animals are free to roam a large range (abilty to seek natural protection from the elements), leaving them out in the winter without shelter can be very cruel depending on the area.
It is very possible that PP’s land had/has a good tree stand that would provide a decent windbreak. But even that is dependent on the type and age of the trees/tree stand, prevailing winter storm winds, and any possible moisture coming in off, let’s say, the ocean (depends on how far inland the moisture can blow in). There are a lot of other things to factor in when it comes to winter weather and protection.
I am located about an hour south of the Virginia border in the Peidmont (central NC) area. For the most part the weather is fairly mild. However, when we get winter storms coming in they can be really dangerous.
Two things that will kill your horse in the winter are wind and rain or moisture, throw in a drop in temperature and you will end up with a miserable horse in danger of hypothermia. They will stop eating their hay during some storms.
If the snow is a ‘warm snow’ it can melt and saturate thier coat … then if there is a temperature drop the coat can begin to freeze. Ad a wind to those types of conditions and the horse is really in trouble.
Sometimes the weather keeps burying their hay. More trouble.
Having only freezing water, or close to freezing water, available ads to their loss of body temperature.
If there is enough snow, they cannot move easily at all.
Wet ears and dropping temperatures can end up with freezing ears.
It seems that the brains have COTH have figured it out.
It was all the fault of the neighbours. Indeed they’re lying, cruel, stupid, unreliable, criminal, trespassers and really quite poor interviewees in front of a camera. :yes:
If only they’d not been so stupid, had some media training and been able to properly present on TV, fixed the fencing, not jumped to conclusions when they didn’t see PP and she didn’t answer the door. They should have known she slept all day and that’s why she wasn’t around to answer and do things like see to her horses. They should have just waited when the horses got out because OF COURSE they’ll be a pet sitter arranged. Indeed I bet they were the pet sitters!!
Darn them neighbours!!!
[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;5158209]
I’m a little irritated that the neighbors who couldn’t be bothered to pick up a hose and fill a trough were more than happy to trespass to get on TV.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=rainechyldes;5158248]I find it funny that somehow everything and the kitchen sink somehow needs to be thrown into the mix.
neighbors say A/ she was never home B, she was a recluse - so… which was it?
and if her animals are cared for either way - whose gd business is it anyhow?
After wading through this thread, I still don’t see any information thats relevant to the situation beyond the first few posts and media releases. The rest is just moronic drivel , assumptions, dreamt up scenarios, I’m better then you because… ad nauseum…take your pick.
Grow up people, seriously.[/QUOTE]
And to help those horrid neighbours Animal Control helped by having silly rules like insisting horses were well looked after!
Terrible! What is the world coming to.
You should be allowed to do just what you want when you want and your neighbours should be there to get on with doing what you don’t do. Animal Control should only get involved when a horse is dying of starvation or beaten within an inch of it’s life.
[QUOTE=mbm;5159082]
no one said it was! require a shelter. fine! but to say it is CRUELTY to have a horse outside is, at least to those at Univ of ON and others - not cruelty at all. in fact they sai horses can do quite well as long as they have food/water to maintain body weight.
that is my entire point![/QUOTE] You made your point. You made it numerous times. Indeed more than anyone else on this thread.
You think that others got it wrong.
You think the whole of the UK got it wrong: universities, legislators et al.
You think Maine legislators got it wrong.
I’d have said that all horses need shelter and not to provide shelter was a serious failing and negligent. I’d also assert that it’s not a leap of imagination to imagine circumstances where the consequences of not providing a shelter would be darn right cruel.
What sort of shelter is required is determined not by what you or a single study might say. Not that the link YOU posted actually did say how you’ve managed to summarise it! You might want to read it in it’s entirety rather than stopping and posting once you’ve got bored or found something that suits your opinion. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info-coldweather-man.htm
Rather it’s determined by:
The breed and type of horse
The health and condition and age of the horse
General climate and environment
How much space the horse has generally
Whether the horse is clipped or unclipped
Whether you want to hedge your bets on the horse NEVER being ill and needing to be treated or box rested
Legislation where you live
In this case we know it’s a requirement. We know that PP knew it was a requirement. We also know by her own words that she was struggling to buy hay and feed last winter and same problem for this coming winter.
it is not cruel to have horses out in the winter without shelters - even tho in maine you can be fined for “cruelty” by not having shelters.
in other words: it is NOT cruelty to leave a horse out with out a shelter - even tho in Maine the law says it is.
yeah we got that bit but as there is alway a but amd some people are missing it alot
what say they all got out and got killed
what prospective would you lot say then ------- that the fencing should be done
that they should have hada safe enviroment to live in and a shelter to stay in if the weather was nasty or to hot,
rememeber a shelter not only helps and aids a horse in winter but also in summer and a lot of hers were white and another colour as in skewbald and piebald to us to you pinto, an oevero ot tobino whatever
and when they a re white like that------- then most do tend to suffer with nasal skin problems if not the whole body but also on legs
the evrioment wasnt safe enough to house that many ponies and to be honest the ground wasnt enough for each one
if one is keep a horse out 24/7 then its an acre per horse
and plenty of clean fresh water and hay each
not just for three in a pen, then if they got out in that tiny pen then theres to many horses and not enough room so they will fight and if lack of grub
then its will be the dominate ones that get it, so poor neddies will break out or get shoved out as i knock down or go through simple fences to get to more foodstuffs or to get away from the bullies of the herd
and bods that dont know will keep sticking them back in thinking they helping
when in truth its just adding trouble as any good horse person knows theres a place that each herd memeber has but non horsey folk dont know that
they dont know whats good to eat and wahts not this includes grass and weeds
so
was it enviroment freindly ---- dont think so
the palce is by the road side
think this
if the horses got out got killed and caused a major accident
was that safe - no ac are doing there job they are prtecting the horses but they are also protecting other road users from potential harm
[QUOTE=fivehorses;5158975]
MBM, hello, I don’t know where you live, but in MAINE, the law requires a 3 sided shelter from November 1 to April 1. Period, end of story, goodbye.[/QUOTE]
I’ve read that (Nov 1 to April 1) several times, but I can’t find it in the regulation. I’m curious about that clause - can anyone cite the actual regulation that states that?
Here is the relevant Maine reg:
Title 7: AGRICULTURE AND ANIMALS
Part 9: ANIMAL WELFARE HEADING: PL 1987, C. 383, §3 (NEW)
Chapter 739: CRUELTY TO ANIMALS HEADING: PL 1987, C. 383, §3 (NEW)
§4015. Proper shelter, protection from the weather and humanely clean conditions
No person owning or responsible for confining or impounding any animal may fail to provide the animal with proper shelter, protection from the weather and humanely clean conditions as prescribed in this section. [1997, c. 456, §7 (AMD).]
Indoor standards. … (SummerRose removed - not relevant to horses)
Outdoor standards. Minimum outdoor standards of shelter are as follows.
A. When sunlight is likely to cause heat exhaustion of an animal tied or caged outside, sufficient shade by natural or artificial means must be provided to protect the animal from direct sunlight. As used in this paragraph, “caged” does not include farm fencing used to confine livestock. [2007, c. 439, §27 (AMD).]
B. Except as provided in subsections 5 and 6, shelter from inclement weather must be as follows.
B An artificial shelter, with a minimum of 3 sides and a waterproof roof, appropriate to the local climatic conditions and for the species and breed of the animal must be provided as necessary for the health of the animal.[/B] (SummerRose in - Nov 1 to April one not specified in this reg, can someone tell me which regulation specifies this?)
(2) If a dog … (SummerRose removed - not relevant to horses)
Space standards. Minimum space requirements for both indoor and outdoor enclosures shall include the following.
A. The housing facilities shall be structurally sound and maintained in good repair to protect the animal from injury and to contain the animal. [1987, c. 383, §3 (NEW).]
B. Enclosures shall be constructed and maintained to provide sufficient space to allow each animal adequate freedom of movement. Inadequate space may be indicated by evidence of overcrowding, debility, stress or abnormal behavior patterns. [1987, c. 383, §3 (NEW).]
[ 1987, c. 383, §3 (NEW) .]
Humanely clean conditions. Minimum standards of sanitation necessary to provide humanely clean conditions for both indoor and outdoor enclosures shall include periodic cleanings to remove excretions and other waste materials, dirt and trash to minimize health hazards.
[ 1987, c. 383, §3 (NEW) .]
Livestock. Livestock must be provided with shelter suitable for the health of the animal. Livestock must have access to a constructed or natural shelter that is large enough to accommodate all livestock comfortably at one time. The shelter should be well drained and protect the livestock from direct sun, rain, wind and other inclement weather. Notwithstanding this subsection, shelter for equines must be provided in accordance with subsection 2, paragraph B, subparagraph (1). For purposes of this subsection, “livestock” includes large game as defined in section 1341, subsection 5 kept at a licensed commercial large game shooting area as defined in section 1341, subsection 1.
(Continues with requirements relevant only to dogs)
Regarding a tarp-like shelter, didn’t PP say in one of her posts that the tarps had blown off the shelters in the past or collapsed under the weight of rain/snow?
I don’t think it’s just the shelter issues. Look at all the issues stated that are concerns. Someone many pages back stated the various concerns, and it’s not just shelter. I believe it was fencing issues, a stallion(s) getting out, accidental breeding(s), neighbors’ complaints in the past, horses getting out and onto the roads, not having enough funds for vet care in the past, etc. Someone mentioned seeing empty feed bags in the video and listed that as proof that the horses had been fed. I did a close-up on the bathtub in the round pen and there was a large, jagged chunk out of the top lip, right next to a horse’s leg - that’s a ceramic tub and if that was my horse, he would’ve already sliced his leg open!
You can’t take the pieces and argue them individually, you have to take a look at the entire horsekeeping issue as a pattern through the years.
No one’s saying PP doesn’t love her horses. In fact, the more I read, the more I’m convinced that these horses are her life and she does everything she can to care for them. But perhaps things have gotten beyond her, she’s possibly become overwhelmed and perhaps this is a good time to get some much-needed help and a time to recognize that additional animals (more breeding, fostering, etc.) would only contribute to the problem.
I hope that this situation is resolved for the best of the animals and the people involved.
mbm, it’s true that horses were designed by nature for cold climates.
And horses in general usually prefer cold weather to hot.
I personally think shelter should be provided for shade in hot weather also.
However, even though they are cold climate animals by nature, it doesn’t mean that shelter in certain climates is very beneficial for the animals.
Comparing domesticated horses to feral or wild ones isn’t a good comparison for a few reasons:
*Domestic horses were purpose bred/created for reasons not pertaining to surviving certain climates
*fenced in horses do not often have the room, topography and means to protect themselves from the elements
*a very common cause of death for feral or wild horses is not surviving the winter
So while they may be designed in general for cold weather; what we’ve done to them concerning their ability to regulate body temperature, how we keep them and the fact that we do want them to live past the age of 12-15 means in some climates we must provide shelter in winter months or otherwise be cruel in keeping them in a way that compromises them.
Also in New England, especially further north and most especially in higher altitudes…it’s not the temperature so much as the type of weather that can wear a horse down. Winter coats aren’t designed to block wind…high winds do hit the skin and lower the body temperature of the horse and causes shivering.
Wet weather penetrates the coats and also lowers body temperature.
If the weather is 5 degrees with a dry breeze, horses in good weight with adequate forage and water should do fine as long as they’re healthy and not too old or too young. And not a breed that does better iin warm climates.
The purpose for making the legal shelter a “3 sided structure with waterproof roof” is not to pamper the horses, but the 3 sides for blocking wind and the roof for blocking wet. because wind and wet in very cold climates can be really hard for the horses.
I have never understood the purpose of coparing domestic horses on controlled property to wild or feral horses. The two aren’'t the same animals…they don’t always do well with the same lifestyles of barefoot trimming or all natural veggie diets or no shelter. It’s like saying that wolves, coyotes, dingos and fox do great in the wild on their own so why the heck are you bringing your dog inside or providing a dog house for it? Why can’t your cocker spaniel hunt for itself and keep itself warm in the forest? Domestic vs wild is not a valid comparison.
Not to mention that many of the places on this planet where we choose to keep horses are NOT areas that a feral or wild horses has ever populated anyways. So appparently these aren’t the palces where a horse will thrive in an all natural environment…or else they would have at some point.
And New England, USA didn’t have any Equus fossils found here. It’s not a spot where wild horses ever lived apparently. Even the Native Americans in this area weren’t horsemen…there weren’t any roaming horses for them to domesticate. The settler horses didn’t survive on their own here to form herds.
I moved my horses (a draft cross and an old-fashioned QH-type paint) home while I was still finishing construction on my barn. I thought I’d save the board money and finish up the barn that much quicker.
It was November. In coastal SC. Which is when one can (usually) count on the temperatures being in the sixties or seventies during the day and 45 or 50 at night.
Except that November. A nor’easter blew in. The temperature was still up around 40 degrees during the day, but it was raining horizontally. I had two miserable shivering horses, who just about shoved me out of the way to get on the trailer and go back to their boarding stable.
Really, I’m having a hard time buying that people truly believe horses are just fine and dandy confined somewhere without shelter.
