I really think that what MBM was trying to say was not that horses did not need shelter but that the CRUELTY Label was a bit far. It has to do with the level of the charge- for instance Manslaughter 1 vs Manslaughter 2. Perhaps calling it negligence would be better than cruelty. It still is a charge, and it is still not good- but the label is so bad. I have a nephew who is now a registered sex offender. Why? Because he got his girlfriend (that he had had for 3 years) who was 17 pregnant. Her parents went nutso on them after they found out she got pregnant, and had him charged with statutory rape(since she was not 18 yet) so now he is a registered sex offender. This means that for the rest of his life he has to register himself with the state any time he moves to a new area. Is he a rapist or anything bad- nope, just a young and dumb kid who is expecting his first child this next week, and married the girl he got into trouble with inspite of her families attempts to tear them apart. I know that is not horse related, but it does put some perspective on how a label can be misleading and make people think the worst. When people see his name on the Sex Offender List, they think the worst about him. An Animal Cruelty charge would be no different- honestly most people would expect to hear about multiple neglects, starvation, or possibly death- not just having the wrong type of shelterā¦
I havenāt been on in awhile, and just came across this thread. I donāt have time to read all 29473987 pages, but I did want to say that I had suspected for quite some time now, that PP was a hoarder (or had tendencies, at the very least).
Most of the posts from her that I saw were regarding a new horse/cat/kitten that she had taken in, despite her own prior indications that she was in over her head WRT the farm, the horses, money, etc.
I will say that a) getting animal control to even respond to a complaint is damn near impossible, and b) the fact theyāve been consistently engaged with PP for the last 2 years is really rather telling.
I am sorry this happened to her animals. I donāt know her as a person, so donāt want to make a judgment. Of course, as we all know by now, people who are hoarders really do love their animals- to an unhealthy degree- and really are operating under the belief that they are the best care that animal will ever have; which is why they fight so hard to keep them (despite their own destitution).
So to PP, these actions of [somewhat*] inadvertant neglect were all performed out of love and devotion to her animals (*I say āsomewhatā because she had to have known at least a little that something wasnāt right and needed to be hidden from sight- I highly doubt she posted about every time she was visited by animal control).
And here we have the issue of perception- her āloveā is anotherās ācrueltyā or āinsufficiencies.ā
I understand that she was very popular on these boards. But I think itās important for everyone to remember that the boards are only one facet of the person with whom weāre communicating. We donāt know what is going on in the background, in their lives; what their perceptions are vs. ours, what their frame of references is vs. reality; who they are in their written word vs. real lifeā¦ itās all very complex, and itās really quite sobering when you really sit back and think about the depths and the implications of these sorts of things.
My point is- donāt believe everything you read is everything; but believe that everything you read isnāt everything.
thereās always more below the surface.
I belive that some of us are guilelessā¦ and some of us are predatory or manipulativeā¦ and that some of us have to start to cross the line from the former into the latter out of necessity- because at least there is someone/s out there who canāt see that weāre really falling apart. And sometimes that is the last comfort and dignity we have.
Prayers for the animals. And prayers that this doesnāt happen again.
ReeseTheBeast,
If there were a slow clap emoticon, Iād put it right here.
Excellent post.
āBelieve that everything you read isnāt everythingā. So true. Something to think about on both sides of this topic I think.
[QUOTE=Long Spot;5159463]
ReeseTheBeast,
If there were a slow clap emoticon, Iād put it right here.
Excellent post.
āBelieve that everything you read isnāt everythingā. So true. Something to think about on both sides of this topic I think.[/QUOTE]
Ditto and I think so many of us are enablers for some.
When someone posted that her saddles had been stolen, my first thought was, do I have some saddle I am not using, poor poster, she lost her saddles to a thief, maybe I can helpā¦
Then, the head slapping moment, the hey, pay attention, this is just one more poster that maybe is not on the up and up, that is exactly how she may have been complementing her living, from all of us that would do anything for someone in need and there are thousands on COTH.
We really should stop and think before deciding what we do is the right thing, because some times, doing the right thing is not right after all either.
There are really not ātwo sides to the storyā, there are many layers to the story and we donāt know them all.
We really should not want to know them all, anyway.:no:
Some are private and should stay that way.
[QUOTE=Carolinadreaminā;5159280]
Regarding a tarp-like shelter, didnāt PP say in one of her posts that the tarps had blown off the shelters in the past or collapsed under the weight of rain/snow? [/QUOTE] She did and seems PP was posting truthfully because the video report in this thread showed the collapsed frame of it in the yard. Looked like a basic frame tent.
I hope that this situation is resolved for the best of the animals and the people involved.
I absolutely endorse that.
I just came up with that phrase on the fly! And thank you- I donāt know that Iāve ever gotten a slow clap- as an emoticon or in real life 
[quote=Bluey;5159483]Ditto and I think so many of us are enablers for some.
ā¦maybe I can helpā¦Then, the head slapping moment, the hey, pay attention, this is just one more poster that maybe is not on the up and up, that is exactly how she may have been complementing her living, from all of us that would do anything for someone in need and there are thousands on COTH.
We really should stop and think before deciding what we do is the right thing, because some times, doing the right thing is not right after all either.
There are really not ātwo sides to the storyā, there are many layers to the story and we donāt know them all.
[/quote]
I think we have to realize that it is āOKā to question something we see on this board; even from a well-known, well-established and well-loved memberā¦ I think a lot of times people donāt speak up and question things out of fear of the āgroup thinkā turning on and attacking them, and then getting ostracized from the boards (aāla our well-known trainwrecks)ā¦ Itās really interesting to see the social structure and hierarchies that web forums develop all on their own- itās this weird juxtaposition of āreal life that isnāt.ā But I digressā¦
I will cop to that, myself- being afraid of not being āacceptedā by the rest of the COTH forum members, for questioning something about one of the āseniorā or more āelderā level (and I donāt mean age, I mean level of community respect).
There were at least 8 times where I started posting something in response to one of PPās many threads, questioning what was really going onā¦ now Iām annoyed with myself that I didnāt.
And truth be told, one can question another without being combative, tactless, confrontational or accusatory. It can certainly be done in a respectful way. (although that seems to be the exception rather than the ruleā¦)
And hell, I donāt know what I was afraid of! Even if everyone hated me, and even if I had gotten mobbed, at least it would have gotten a few wheels turning. And itās not like anyone was going to āunfriendā me from Facebook :winkgrin: because very few of you know me in real life.
Again, thereās that weird juxtaposition between āreal life that isnātāā¦ where do the two diverge?
Ah, āThe Wisdom of the Crowdsāā¦ 'tis a double-edged sword, indeed.
Eyes wide open: new hotness for 2011. 
I couldnāt agree more.
Such a sad situation - I hope PP is able to make the improvements needed and get her animals back.
Anyone else watch āHoardersā . . . not saying thatās what PP is, but it sure gives you a whole new perspective on how easily you can slip over the edge . . . but for the grace of God . . .
Around here all it takes is persistance to get AC involved.
A complaint to them does not have to be true, it just has to be frequent.
Good to hear that your areaās AC is much more responsive than those Iāve dealt with over the years :yes:
However, I will point out that these were not just frequent complaints- they were actual true events that were validated by both the neighbors/witnesses/AC investigators; and on multiple occasions.
Frequency and persistence aside, there look to be some pretty hard facts that say the allegations are true.
[QUOTE=carolprudm;5159604]
Around here all it takes is persistance to get AC involved.
A complaint to them does not have to be true, it just has to be frequent.[/QUOTE]
Thatās what I have seen, too, in two states.
[QUOTE=ReeseTheBeast;5159395]I havenāt been on in awhile, and just came across this thread. I donāt have time to read all 29473987 pages, but I did want to say that I had suspected for quite some time now, that PP was a hoarder (or had tendencies, at the very least).
Most of the posts from her that I saw were regarding a new horse/cat/kitten that she had taken in, despite her own prior indications that she was in over her head WRT the farm, the horses, money, etc.
I will say that a) getting animal control to even respond to a complaint is damn near impossible, and b) the fact theyāve been consistently engaged with PP for the last 2 years is really rather telling.
I am sorry this happened to her animals. I donāt know her as a person, so donāt want to make a judgment. Of course, as we all know by now, people who are hoarders really do love their animals- to an unhealthy degree- and really are operating under the belief that they are the best care that animal will ever have; which is why they fight so hard to keep them (despite their own destitution).
So to PP, these actions of [somewhat*] inadvertant neglect were all performed out of love and devotion to her animals (*I say āsomewhatā because she had to have known at least a little that something wasnāt right and needed to be hidden from sight- I highly doubt she posted about every time she was visited by animal control).
And here we have the issue of perception- her āloveā is anotherās ācrueltyā or āinsufficiencies.ā
I understand that she was very popular on these boards. But I think itās important for everyone to remember that the boards are only one facet of the person with whom weāre communicating. We donāt know what is going on in the background, in their lives; what their perceptions are vs. ours, what their frame of references is vs. reality; who they are in their written word vs. real lifeā¦ itās all very complex, and itās really quite sobering when you really sit back and think about the depths and the implications of these sorts of things.
My point is- donāt believe everything you read is everything; but believe that everything you read isnāt everything.
thereās always more below the surface.
I belive that some of us are guilelessā¦ and some of us are predatory or manipulativeā¦ and that some of us have to start to cross the line from the former into the latter out of necessity- because at least there is someone/s out there who canāt see that weāre really falling apart. And sometimes that is the last comfort and dignity we have.
Prayers for the animals. And prayers that this doesnāt happen again.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but reading the bolded parts of your remarks, you just did pass judgement. By your own admission, you donāt read all so this must be somewhat uninformed, right? And the fact that Pintopiaffe has not given her side of the story means that all of us stand without at least some of the facts.
Maybe Iām approaching this wrong, but I take a laissez-faire and tentative position to judging people here. āLaissez-faireā because the animals (I have never seen) belonging to COTHers (I have never seen) are so far beyond my control that thereās little point in worrying about it. āTentativeā because Iām sure people are more multi-faceted in real life than they are as on-line people. I know Iāll never get to perfect and balls-on accurate perception of the people I know on-llne.
In practice I donāt expose myself to too much risk and that keeps me from having to wish I were a great judge of character. Iām careful with money (and have yet to be screwed by a COTHer). Iāll extend the benefit of the doubt to anyone because it costs me nothing to start out as somewhere between neutral and kind.
I also think the criteria for āhoarderā are pretty flexible. At least they are flexible enough that I donāt apply the term to people whose spectacularly bad, over-crowded places I havenāt seen in person.
[QUOTE=fivehorses;5158958]
I have been reading different āwhat happenedā and although Iād like to spend the day on coth, I cannot.
can anyone please link the news reports.
I am very curious to your statements mbm and would like to see links validating them.
other people thru out the day have also mentioned, aco said this, neighbor said this, etc, etc
links please so we can be sure we are looking at the actual reports rather than peopleās interpretation of the reports which reminds me of the telephone game.
thank you.
I thought I had been following the most recent updates, and donāt seem to be hearing or reading the same reports or at least not seeing where this 12 hour without water withdrawl is documented. so, if I am missing those news links, it sure would be nice to have them in one spot, if anyone is so inclined, and then we or the person can go back and edit them and add as they come out. I hope I am making sense.
There seems to be lots more conjecture today than in the past, and well, I just like seeing documentation to corroborate what people are posting.[/QUOTE]
I asked a similar question yesterday and it was suggested I was lazy, blind or dense for not understanding. I guess I am a little lazy because Iām not going to repost and dissect the news article or the post from someone who had a little different version yesterday or the day before. :lol:
But, I see a lot things being dismissed as un-factual, sensationalized, hearsay or an axe to grind from the media or the neighbors, while anything that puts AC in a bad light is the gospel truth. Even if it is also hearsay.
Piecing all the stories together, the logical sequence of events in my mind is that the neighbors probably did find the horses loose again and stuck them in the round pen, on SUNDAY. That day was mentioned in the original news report. Maybe they knocked on the door or left a note and maybe they didnāt. Maybe they could have āpicked up a hoseā or maybe they couldnāt get it to work and lugged water from their own house. In the absence of anyone on the property to proceed from there, they called AC who showed up on Tuesday and then said not to feed any more APPLES so they could get blood work on horses who seemingly had no care from whoever was supposed to be in charge. I think the empty bathtub is irrelevant (in this scenario) but they took pictures of everything amiss just in case it turned out to be important later.
Whether there ever was a sitter or the sitter missed everything between Sunday and Wednesday, the horses needed care the neighbors couldnāt provide. If itās true that PP was totally clueless about this until Thursday or Friday while she was off at the WEG, I have to wonder what is going on there.
But thatās exactly the issue here, isnāt it? I mean IF people want to help, then they should know the story - at least the most important parts.
If people āhelpingā someone who is on the edge and sliding into denial is only āhelpingā to prolong the inevitable slide into unacceptable, then it just lets horses and other animals languish in the ānot quite bad enough to do anything yetā area. And THAT is precisely where the AC has such trouble when trying to intervene - isnāt it?
Not quite up to par may be fine for a week, or a month - but what about over the winter in Maine? Or over the years? Sub-standard conditions are hugely different over a long time-frame than a short one. Marginal fed animals suffer much more with marginal shelter for long periods than do well fed horses with no shelter for a couple day cold snap. And anyone who manages horses knows this.
I think this thread and this issue are important to a lot of people for good reason. It is NOT always easy to sort out where the line is when it seems to have been sliding very, very, very slowly downhill. And if it is hard for us, it must be very hard for the one who is living it. But this is precisely the big problem area we have for laws and for those who must decide when to intervene.
It does not surprise me one bit that AC stepped in once they figured out that PP was gone for a fairly long period of time. It seems to have provided a tipping point - that and the fact that winter is almost here and no shelters have been forthcoming, horses were out again and water seems to have been a problem (for however long - doesnāt matter at some point). This doesnāt seem to be a conspiracy so much as an āif not now, when? - when itās too late?ā issue.
I have no idea if the answer to this is for people to band together and help PP get her animals back or to just try and make sure that the animals end up on decent places. If PP could maintain her farm if only proper fences and shelters were provided to her, thatās great. But if PP is unable to maintain these things, or if this is used as a reason to obtain (through breeding, buying or taking free) more horses - then there is a HUGE problems with people āhelpingā someone/anyone who is in over their head and canāt/wonāt admit it.
I am NOT saying PP would do this or is this. Biut this is what most people here are trying to sort out. I have no idea. What I am saying is anyone who wants to help better have a pretty good idea what will happen if that help is given. AND this is why this issue is so big. There are lots and lots of similar situations all over this country right now. And it makes a huge difference on how these situations are handled - at least to the horses and other animals involved. We all need to have somewhat of a grip on what is all too common of a problem if we are to make any progress at all on learning how to resolve them fairly, quickly and in the best interests of both the animals and the people involved.
IMHO
SCFarm
if we didnt know her- then how many of you would post differently with the same sernerio and an unknown person
as in thinking of what reeese the beasty said
see i wouldnt change my views -
point is
whats deemed as truth - unless we are honest with our selves then we cannot give an honest opnion
meaning - there be a good few that wont change there views on what they believe is the right thing to do, and i know of whome they more likely to be
but those that do, will be fickle - are they to be trusted - not likely
And another thingā¦
Man, I swore to myself I would not post on this thread again but here I goā¦
- Several people have mentioned that
a. We should back off and be respectful to PP
b. Those neighbours are pretty quick to get on TV.
Well, seems once again Warhol was right. Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame. Unfortunately, in PPās case, she made her life very public. Yes, this is a horse BB but when my horse friends and I know ALL about her woes she could be called Famous. Or maybe Infamous, after all of this. Regardless, once you have put yourself out there, you canāt take it back when things go sideways.
Which leads me to my second point.
2) Where were her friends? Not cyber friends or people who say āyes, get that saddle, take on those kittens, breed that fillyā. I mean REAL friends, friends who will show up and help you look after your horses, bring a weedwhacker, help you fix your fences. Friends that are solid enough to say āJaimeā¦we are worried about you. Can we talk about what is going on here?ā
I hope that if, one day, the cheese slips off my cracker a little and I start being unrealistic about my limitations, my real friends will sit me down and kindly perform an intervention.
An internet community can be a fun diversion but it is no substitute for REAL friends.
[QUOTE=ReeseTheBeast;5159395]
My point is- donāt believe everything you read is everything; but believe that everything you read isnāt everything.
thereās always more below the surface.[/QUOTE]
I canāt tell you how many people over the last 8 years of my parenting board adventures have faked a baby, faked the death of a child or romanticized their life while CPS was knocking on the door every other day.
It happens all.the.time and nice people get burned for being sucked in when poop hits the fan.
[QUOTE=carolprudm;5159604]
Around here all it takes is persistance to get AC involved.
A complaint to them does not have to be true, it just has to be frequent.[/QUOTE]
Well, down here in my little corner of Va, we have a case that the AC has been involved with frequently and for years. Still havenāt removed the animals. Woman is a āhoarder with health problemsā, so typical hoarding behavior. Has a gazillion minis that are breeding with everythingā¦brothers and sisters, sons and mothers. Throw in one skinny old buckskin gelding, a few goats and llama, on about an acre of dry lot and moldy round bale hay and there you have it. Actually, havenāt seen the round bales lately since apparently AC found out old gelding has heaves (moldy hay anyone?), so I guess they are feeding squares. Most days animals are stretching their heads through the fence by the road trying to nibble grass, so I canāt imagine theyāre being fed much. Thank goodness they are mostly minis that donāt require muchā¦
AC gets involved and āhelpsā, buckskin gelding gains a little weight, a few minis get castrated. Situation looks improved for awhile, and then deteriorates again. AC comes back inā¦you get the pictureā¦
And I drive by it every stinking day knowing there is nothing to be done because a) they get fed and b) they have water. Iām not sure about shelter because the back 1/2 acre isnāt clearly seen from the road but I think there is a barn. Local vets have been there cutting foals out of mares with dystocia in the middle of the night, so Iām only assumingā¦
So, down here, AC does alot to keep animals with their owners, even with the āpersistanceā of the local residents (and local vets!) who are sickened by the conditions. But, the situation is eerily similar to PPs, so by the definition of many posters here, our local hoarder is doing just fine :no:
Where where her friends? Not cyber friends or people who say āyes, get that saddle, take on those kittens, breed that fillyā. I mean REAL friends, friends who will show up and help you look after your horses, bring a weedwhacker, help you fix your fences. Friends that are solid enough to say āJaimeā¦we are worried about you. Can we talk about what is going on here?ā
Her real friends ARE helping her. On other boards, one claims to have been at her farm within hours of PP returning home. Others are sending money and giving real legal advice on what to do about the seizure and its possible illegality. PP is remaining silent at this point which is a really good idea.
I donāt know any of these people, but the story is pretty crazy. There are enough red flags to let me know that none of us has the whole story yet. nor probably will we.
However, if you are going to keep horses in a messy wreck of a place on a shoestring budget, make good friends with your neighbours. If you prefer to keep your horses and your privacy, build good fences.
Iāve been wondering that, also. I guess itās fair to say the way she lives doesnāt promote having many real life friends, but she seems to be outgoing and likeable. At least here.
[QUOTE=HiyoSilver;5159763]
If you prefer to keep your horses and your privacy, build good fences.[/QUOTE]
Iād think youād want to do that anyway, for the welfare of the horses. 
I meant before it got this far. When the wheels started coming off the cart, not now.
