Robert Frost, a New Englander if there ever was one, certainly understood the value of good fences and their value to maintaining neighborhood relationships. “Good fences make good neighbors”. Mending Wall.
[QUOTE=snkstacres;5156436]
You are right Sonesta, the laws are different in different states. IN GA, shelter can be trees. I am going by Maines law. 72 hour notice to determine abandonment. No date, no time posted on that notice. Maines law, not GA. I am not being snarky, just that I read for a long time before I posted a word. As a rescue, I cant afford bad publicity but even I can only stand so much. In matters of taste, swim with the current, in matters of principle, stand like a rock. PP has been done wrong. Not because she is a cother but because this is just wrong. If I ever pulled off a siezure like this, my ass would be down the road and I would fully expect to be charged with theft of livestock.
I am the biggest mouth when it comes to cruelty, but years of doing this very job has me stand back and take a look at the entire picture. This one has too many pieces missing and none of it in AC’s favor. Stuff in a field, electric fencing etc. etc does not make one cruel. Not having a three sided shelter does not make one cruel even if charged with animal cruelty. That my friends is for lack of knowing what else to call it. I wouldnt have a three sided shelter for a group of horses. They get each other up in corners. My run ins are two sided. Thank heavens I dont live in Maine…
But you know what, PP is not going to have the money to get her animals back anyhow. And so, the problem is now taken care of. The neighbors will no longer have to deal with the animals and AC will no longer have to deal with the neighbors. On top of it all, AC will get some donations for there good work, some exposure and the horses will go stand in a pretty fence.
AC forgot to take ALL the animals. And that alone makes there siezure illegal.
Us animal activists arent always right. Proud to admit when I am wrong and learn from it.[/QUOTE]
Have I told you lately that I just adore you? Well, consider yourself told!!!
[QUOTE=SmokenMirrors;5156964]
Being poor has NOTHING to do with her animal husbandry. I have seen poor people take better care and have pride in what they do have, and in what little they have amassed than PP. SHE let things get this way, SHE chose to let things pile up and have a crappy looking place, poor fencing, things lying all willy nilly, and each and every day SHE chooses to let it go and make excuse after excuse after excuse.
How hard is it to get up and set aside an hour a day or a weekend to pick up the bags, litter, trash, etc. so things look a bit more tidy? How hard is it to grab a brush on the way out to fill water troughs or throw hay and give each horse a once over? Oh but that’s right, she has a crippling disease and can’t do that. But she can go off to ride someone elses horse, which takes balance, skill, muscle coordination and time.
She need to take some personal responsibility for the situation she has gotten herself into. I am so very sick of everyone else being blamed but poor mistreated, misused PP!![/QUOTE]
Sometimes, it is just overwhelming. You look at it, and think where do I start? Then you go-before I can do this, I have to do this, and that leads to well this has to be done first…and then life intrudes. Just because a place is messy is not reason to ruin someones life. She is not like those people on Hoarders.
If you read the Maine rules, the seizure was iffy on several grounds.
[QUOTE=Mozart;5159726]
Where were her friends? Not cyber friends or people who say “yes, get that saddle, take on those kittens, breed that filly”. I mean REAL friends, friends who will show up and help you look after your horses, bring a weedwhacker, help you fix your fences. Friends that are solid enough to say “Jaime…we are worried about you. Can we talk about what is going on here?”
I hope that if, one day, the cheese slips off my cracker a little and I start being unrealistic about my limitations, my real friends will sit me down and kindly perform an intervention.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how many of us have friends who, at least in our opinion, keep too many horses in substandard conditions?
I think that’s partly why this thread saddens me - I know a person who could wind up in just this situation should a farm-sitter not show up. People have
done all the things you suggest, but the volunteers inevitably burnt out because nothing. ever. changes. One can labor away to the point of neglecting one’s own horses and still not make much of a difference. Interventions result in the person simply cutting off contact with the intervenors.
Not saying PP was in this category - just sayin’ I know from experience that sometimes real-life friends are as helpless as the cyber kind to effect change.
“Cheese slipping off the cracker” - I am so stealing that one.:lol:
Any charges yet? Not saying that there may not be any, but just wondering if anyone has info I haven’t seen yet?
Any new “updates” on the news that state that PP has left the area when she has already been home for 2 or 3 days? (Funny how they never answered my e-mail…)
Any more heart-wrenching videos of her horses locked in a round pen scratching at dirt that we later find out is where the AC had them put? WITH no access to food or water?
NOT saying that everything was peachy-keen fantastic here, but as mentioned previously, there are things that haven’t been made public yet and no matter HOW much some of you think I/we OWE it to you to give details, that isn’t going to happen until PP gives the go ahead.
Before anyone starts disparaging me for agreeing with PP’s horse-keeping practices, I wasn’t aware that things had gotten so dire. They were NOT like that before,but I know that things can rapidly get out of hand when life goes to crap for some reason.
But just because of what is happening, doesn’t mean I walk away now that she’s in distress.
There is this thing called “loyalty” where you stand by a person in a time of need, especially a person you know to be a good person over the years through personal interaction. Yes, you make sure you look into the details of course. Due diligence. As mentioned, anyone can be anyone on the internet, but I did get those answers and I am satisfied that, although this may not have been the way I would have handled things, I still believe as I have said from the beginning that PP would not knowingly leave her animals unattended or in any danger.
So, here I am, a voice in the wilderness, asking for the wolves to take a break.
All of the condemnation has been done. All the faults, real and imagined have been repeatedly pointed out. The scenarios, close to the truth and ridiculously far-fetched have been run through over and over. We’ve heard from many about how much better they would have done it. How much more they would have sacrificed. How they wouldn’t have done this or that or would have done this and that.
I think everyone involved has been abused here and by here I am talking about this occurence.PP, the AC, the neighbours. A lot of mistakes have been made, IMO, especially by the way the media jumped on this and chose to portray it. Guarantee you’ll never see any retractions there.
So…carry on if you will.
I for one will be standing behind my friend in her time of need, for better or worse. No, I’ve never met her in real life. We’ve made plans to meet that never happened due to illness and distance. We’ve done business together. We’ve grieved over losses together. She was a rock when I lost two horses in the space of a year or so…
If any of you recall my posts on other topics you may remember that I am not one to keep my opinions to myself. I think I’m doing an admirable job here of keeping my temper in check, if I do say so myself.
NJR
PS
MBM, if you’d like to continue your diatribe on what you think is the “right” way for horses to live in cold weather, could you do it on another thread? The fact remains that in THIS case, the state of Maine requires a three sided shelter, and you are just cluttering up a thread that doesn’t need any more extraneous crap added to it.
[QUOTE=Luckydonkey;5159384]
I really think that what MBM was trying to say was not that horses did not need shelter but that the CRUELTY Label was a bit far. It has to do with the level of the charge- for instance Manslaughter 1 vs Manslaughter 2. Perhaps calling it negligence would be better than cruelty. It still is a charge, and it is still not good- but the label is so bad. I have a nephew who is now a registered sex offender. Why? Because he got his girlfriend (that he had had for 3 years) who was 17 pregnant. Her parents went nutso on them after they found out she got pregnant, and had him charged with statutory rape(since she was not 18 yet) so now he is a registered sex offender. This means that for the rest of his life he has to register himself with the state any time he moves to a new area. Is he a rapist or anything bad- nope, just a young and dumb kid who is expecting his first child this next week, and married the girl he got into trouble with inspite of her families attempts to tear them apart. I know that is not horse related, but it does put some perspective on how a label can be misleading and make people think the worst. When people see his name on the Sex Offender List, they think the worst about him. An Animal Cruelty charge would be no different- honestly most people would expect to hear about multiple neglects, starvation, or possibly death- not just having the wrong type of shelter…[/QUOTE]
thank you. that is EXACTLY what i was trying to say - very very very well put.
Fair enough, and all good points, MVP.
And yes, you’re right I did pass a judgment. Quite a few of them, actually. I’ll cop to that. Hell, I’m a Capricorn, that’s practically what I was born to do. The statement was just a formality.
Anyway, my post(s) was/are written from my point of view, and my frame of reference. Unlike you, I don’t have that natural talent for neutrality or tentativeness… I tend to jump headfirst, all-in, fully trusting; admittedly naieve. And these things apply to poor character judgments and poor financial decisions (like buying a horse right after college) :winkgrin:
So, the consequences and expenses (emotionally and financially) I endure when I’m wrong (which I so often am); is porportional- sometimes when we put all in, we’re left all out. That’s me, and that’s from where I stand.
Doesn’t make me right. But it doesn’t make me wrong either. And for the record, I really admire people like you- I often wonder what it’s like to be able to evaluate an active scenario with logic and common sense- especially when it comes to matters of the heart. For me, those sorts of things usually come as that 20/20 hindsight of a broken heart, bridges burned, and money parted.
I digress.
So, from the information I’ve gleaned from reading about 25 randomly selected, sequential pages of the entire 57 page thread (which is a relatively decent cross section); my past experiences with and knowledge of this COTH forum member, reading what has been reported, and seeing the pictures that have been published- I have made my own determination (judgement, if you will) and assessment of the situation.
That said, I never claimed to be “right.” I was just communicating my thoughts on the situation. Like you did… Although your judgment and evaluation of my thoughts were hardly laissez-faire, or tentative. Nothing wrong with that. Just wanted to point it out.
bar.ka here
ReeseTheBeast
ur sig line bring tears to me eyes.
he.re i thou.ght [i] sofa was banned fo.r. tho.se. words and yet there they are… still ali.v.e and well.
LONG LIVE SOFA.KING!!!
[QUOTE=Nojacketrequired;5159904]
MBM, if you’d like to continue your diatribe on what you think is the “right” way for horses to live in cold weather, could you do it on another thread? The fact remains that in THIS case, the state of Maine requires a three sided shelter, and you are just cluttering up a thread that doesn’t need any more extraneous crap added to it.[/QUOTE]
pardon me?
i was trying to DEFEND your friend PP from the folks who were seeing her thru the eyes of a cruelty charge.
sorry i got involved i guess?
Seriously? This entire 57 PAGE 1000+ POST thread is extraneous crap. Give me a break.
No offense, but…
You have 55 posts on this thread. So far. More than double the number of almost any other poster.
How many of your 55 posts are basically repeating the same information?
i tend to post very short posts. others post very long ones. so?
as for repeating myself - yeah i mentioned that already. i was clearly being misunderstood hugely and so i was trying to find a way of saying something so it would get understood. and, this thread was at one time many threads that were squished together. so my repeating myself in the beginning was me posting in the various threads.
Not defending anyone here, but if the regulations say only:
(1) An artificial shelter, with a minimum of 3 sides and a waterproof roof, appropriate to the local climatic conditions and for the species and breed of the animal must be provided as necessary for the health of the animal.
that is not the same as:
The fact remains that in THIS case, the state of Maine requires a three sided shelter
The bolded parts of the regulation above leave a lot of wiggle room, such that shelter only needs to be provided when the weather or the health of the animal dictates, not all the time. So if the weather was not extreme, and the animals were healthy, the absence of shelter is not evidence of cruelty.
Having written regulations for a living, the weasel words often get included on purpose to allow room for interpretation.
Posted by tidy rabbit:
Seriously? This entire 57 PAGE 1000+ POST thread is extraneous crap. Give me a break.
Ah Grasshopper, we all are but grains of sand in the larger scheme of things … 
pardon me?
i was trying to DEFEND your friend PP from the folks who were seeing her thru the eyes of a cruelty charge.
sorry i got involved i guess?
Great. Find something to defend her with that is a fact relevant to the discussion.
NJR
you don’t think it is relevant to the discussion that she has a prior cruelty charge that is probably going to affect her ability to keep her horses and also is one of the things that many here are latching onto and using as their basis of character assassination?
and, just so i am very very crystal clear: i think that a “cruelty charge” for lack of shelter is over charging (is that a word?) … negligence might be better. horses can and do survive in the cold with out a man made shelter. would i keep my horses without shelter? no. should you? who knows.
plus, the actual wording of the rules seems to indicate that you are wrong.
i cant believe you are slamming me when there are a gamillion posts here tearing PP a new one.
[QUOTE=mbm;5160052]
you don’t think it is relevant to the discussion that she has a prior cruelty charge that is probably going to affect her ability to keep her horses and also is one of the things that many here are latching onto and using as their basis of character assassination?
and, just so i am very very crystal clear: i think that a “cruelty charge” for lack of shelter is over charging (is that a word?) … negligence might be better. horses can and do survive in the cold with out a man made shelter. would i keep my horses without shelter? no. should you? who knows.
plus, the actual wording of the rules seems to indicate that you are wrong.
i cant believe you are slamming me when there are a gamillion posts here tearing PP a new one.[/QUOTE]
—“Character assassination” I think is a little bit strong.
Anyway, that would be one extreme, the other enabling, maybe?
How about maybe finding a more constructive way to solve this than going off both extremes?
1 Like
[QUOTE=kiss my donk;5160014]
The bolded parts of the regulation above leave a lot of wiggle room, such that shelter only needs to be provided when the weather or the health of the animal dictates, not all the time. So if the weather was not extreme, and the animals were healthy, the absence of shelter is not evidence of cruelty.
Having written regulations for a living, the weasel words often get included on purpose to allow room for interpretation.[/QUOTE]
You would think it would leave wiggle room. But in this case, the state has chosen to hold PP to every letter of that vaguely written law.
I don’t believe she’s heard from the state yet - no charges, no hearing date. Amazing how quickly they seized the animals, but are now appearing to drag their feet…
Regarding Maine shelter laws, it’s under the animal cruelty definition:
E. Deprives an animal that the person owns or possesses of necessary sustenance, necessary medical attention, proper shelter, protection from the weather or humanely clean conditions;
4015. Proper shelter, protection from the weather and humanely clean conditions
No person owning or responsible for confining or impounding any animal may fail to provide the animal with proper shelter, protection from the weather or humanely clean conditions as prescribed in this section.
- Indoor standards. Minimum indoor standards of shelter shall be as follows.
A. The ambient temperature shall be compatible with the health of the animal.
B. Indoor housing facilities shall be adequately ventilated by natural or mechanical means to provide for the health of the animal at all times. - Outdoor standards. Minimum outdoor standards of shelter shall be as follows.
A. When sunlight is likely to cause heat exhaustion of an animal tied or caged outside, sufficient shade by natural or artificial means shall be provided to protect the animal from direct sunlight. As used in this paragraph, “caged” does not include farm fencing used to confine farm animals.
B. Except as provided in subsection 5, shelter from inclement weather shall be as follows.
(1) An artificial shelter with a minimum of 3 sides and a waterproof roof appropriate to the local climatic conditions for the species concerned shall be provided as necessary for the health of the animal.
(2) If a dog is tied or confined unattended outdoors under weather conditions that adversely affect the health of the dog, a shelter of suitable size with a floor above ground and waterproof roof shall be provided to accommodate the dog and protect it from the weather and, in particular, from severe cold. Inadequate shelter may be indicated by the shivering of the dog due to cold weather for a continuous period of 30 minutes.
C. No animal may be confined in a building, enclosure, car, boat, vehicle or vessel of any kind when extreme heat or extreme cold will be harmful to its health. - Space standards. Minimum space requirements for both indoor and outdoor enclosures shall include the following.
A. The housing facilities shall be structurally sound and maintained in good repair to protect the animal from injury and to contain the animal.
B. Enclosures shall be constructed and maintained to provide sufficient space to allow each animal adequate freedom of movement. Inadequate space may be indicated by evidence of overcrowding, debility, stress or abnormal behavior patterns. - Humanely clean conditions. Minimum standards of sanitation necessary to provide humanely clean conditions for both indoor and outdoor enclosures shall include periodic cleanings to remove excretions and other waste materials, dirt and trash to minimize health hazards.
- Livestock. Livestock must be provided with shelter suitable for the health of the animal. Livestock must have access to a constructed or natural shelter that is large enough to accommodate all livestock comfortably at one time. The shelter should be well drained and protect the livestock from direct sun, rain, wind and other inclement weather. Notwithstanding this subsection, shelter for equines must be provided in accordance with subsection 2, paragraph B, subparagraph (1). For purposes of this subsection, “livestock” includes large game as defined in section 1341, subsection 5 kept at a licensed commercial large game shooting area as defined in section 1341, subsection 1.
