Saddle Chariot?

Just for fun, has anyone gotten to try out a Saddle Chariot? I read a couple of other discussions about it and it seems that some people love it and others are not so keen. I guess it depends on what your interests and goals are with your equine. But for just getting out and having a good time, it does look like fun. :slight_smile: It would be interesting to hear what someone who has actually tried one thinks. Not thinking about buying one, maybe the next time I have an extra couple of thousand $$$$ to throw around.:winkgrin:

http://naturaldriving.co.uk/content_home.php

DIY

No and for absolute certain I won’t be!

And its been some time since I’ve read such a load of rubbish as what’s on their web site!

And if it costs a couple of thousand pounds, then I can’t think why as it would only cost about £100 maximum to build !

Thanks, but…not my cup of tea. :D:dead:

OMG, that is histarical! If you get out of the cart it comes unhitched from the pony, thats great so you hop out of the cart and abandon the pony and the vehicle flies free from him and scraes him half to death. And then they show this ill-designed item being used as a forecart. Poor ponies!

A friend in the UK has seen it in action. She is quite knowledgable about carriages and equines. Her opinion was that the vehicle is just garbage. Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields. Lots of jerking to move it about. Total waste of money to buy.

Poor ponies.

Thanks for the great responses. Very much appreciated.
DIY

Now wait just a minute…

First let me make sure I have this target painted on my back so no one shoots at me and hits an innocent bystander :eek::lol::cool:.

Why is something so completely condemed because it is different?

I just spent a good part of an hour going over the SC site… I also took the time to go into the site of Lancaster University and check out their engineering department. I have sent them an e-mail asking what they think of the SC and exactly what part the engineering dept played in designing the SC. If and when I get a reply, I’ll let you know.

In the meantime, why is it “poor ponies”? The design of the vehicle keeps the weight over and slightly behind the axle which keeps the weight OFF the pony. One would need to physically lean over the front of the vehicle to add weight on to the pony.

Now Thomas… I know you, usually more than some on here, resist change. However, how can you say it is rubbish before you have obviously investigated it thoroughly?

Lancaster University is one of the highest ranked institutes of learning in the country. Their engineering dept is highly rated across Europe. Even so, Goodhors, your friend who you say knows much about carriages assumes to know more then said engineering dept by stating

“Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields.”

I’m pretty sure before she made that statement that she didn’t realize the engineering department was instrumental in designing the SC to stand up to not just pony use but also to modern standards for safety and construction in modern MOTOR vehicles.

Renae maybe you should have watched the video and read the entire site before you said

"If you get out of the cart it comes unhitched from the pony "

This is not how the SC works at all. There is a release that will seperate the pony from the SC but it is controlled by the driver and is designed to separate the vehicle and the pony in an emergency. I’ll admit, this is an alien concept but it in no way makes it hysterical.

Also, why does using the SC as a forecart to pull appliances with make them poor ponies? The way the vehicle is designed the shafts and traces are horizontal to the ground… With that line of draught and the appliances attached at the ground level at the rear of the SC the weight of the appliance actually lightens the weight on the pony.

Ok, so its a lot of money. That has nothing to do with the vehicle. We don’t know what costs he accepted to get the SC in production and the first few produced. Maybe after he recoups some of the initial startup expenses the cost will go down. Regardless… the cost has nothing to do with the vehicle.

I am aware that in his musings on his website the author touches on a certain sense of elitism held by the English (or British :)) carriage society toward others around them. As with the cost, his political views have nothing to do with the vehicle.

I know its a human trait to resist change… ask Sam, she can tell you some stories about dinosaurs and resisting change :yes::cool:. However, just because its different doesnt make it bad.

I know there are some on here that will refuse to consider anything besides their initial reaction :cool:;). Thats OK, but on the other hand I would hope someone would give this little vehicle just a bit more thought.

         Don

I think the thing that bugs me the most about the web site is the claim that “anyone can do this with ANY animal”.

Yeah, right, go right ahead and try… :frowning:

It doesn’t look THAT much different than a normal forecart to me but just based on the dangerously misleading advertising claims I would have to give this one a miss.

I agree with that WA… he seems to be assuming that if you are contemplating one of his vehicles you already have a “driving” animal.

While this is misleading it doesn’t effect the vehicle… I think he should concentrate on building vehicles and get someone with pony/driving experience to write his ad copy…

                         Don

[QUOTE=horseyfolks;2591245]
Now Thomas… I know you, usually more than some on here, resist change. However, how can you say it is rubbish before you have obviously investigated it thoroughly? [/QUOTE] What an absolute load of tosh! I’m an Engineer by profession and as such have spent a lifetime designing and working with new technology. Then in relation to driving I was the first person EVER to compete with a steel constructed purpose built x country marathon vehicle for horse driving trials in the UK. Designed and built by me! And I patented the first RDA driving vehicle for wheelchair users.

So to put it bluntly, you know nothing about me!

Furthermore I never actually said the vehicle was rubbish I said the content of the web site was.

And here’s an example of what I meant:

You step off, 8" back and 8" down, easily, safely and even at speed while retaining full control of the pony,
Its no different from stepping off a more conventional vehicle back step. Lets presume the pony is at canter - you step off - no different to stepping off anything that is in forward momentum - its certainly NOT safe and there’s no way if you step off and become stationary and the pony is at canter that you have control! Heck you could be dragged through the dirt and over the top of the heap of junk metal you’ve just fast released from it! Though I note their suggestion is you just let the pony P* off into the distant horizon - VERY safe!!! (NOT)

“Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields.”
And all the above is true and whilst Lancaster University Eneering Department may have been involved in the Engineering design, trust me they’re not carriage drivers or equestrian specialists and I well remember their involvement with RDA vehicles was of moderate assistance in terms of ensuring the vehicle would stand the stresses of the work to be undertaken. They have NO expertise assessing the suitability for the horse!

I’m pretty sure before she made that statement that she didn’t realize the engineering department was instrumental in designing the SC to stand up to not just pony use but also to modern standards for safety and construction in modern MOTOR vehicles.
Well I didn’t make the statement but I agree with it totally and I did realise that Lancaster University had a finger in it but NOTE they are not equipped with expertise to assess its suitability for the HORSE.

We don’t know what costs he accepted to get the SC in production and the first few produced. Maybe after he recoups some of the initial startup expenses the cost will go down. Regardless… the cost has nothing to do with the vehicle.
Speaking as an Engineer who builds carriages (not as a carriage driver) if that cost more than £50 to design then he was robbed. Heck it could be drawn on an autocad by an apprentice in less than an hour! There is virtually no “start up” expenses. NOTHING on it requires special manufacturing equipment. Its just jerry built and basic steel cutting, fabrication and welding equipment is required. NOTHING special at all. Heck its not even on custom built axles or wheelhubs. Just old rubbish car wheels bought from a scrap yard!

However, just because its different doesnt make it bad.
And no one said that was the reason it was bad.

I know there are some on here that will refuse to consider anything besides their initial reaction :cool:;). Thats OK, but on the other hand I would hope someone would give this little vehicle just a bit more thought.
o.k. now I’ve given it further thought, rather than merely saying I won’t ever be trying one, I am on consideration prepared to come down on the side of those who suggested it was a heap of shoddy scrap metal and totally inappropriate for some poor beast to drag around. And its being misrepresented.

interesting

to hear everyone’s take on this novel approach to driving. I visited Simon’s (pretty sure that’s his name) website and corresponded with him for a while a couple of years ago. I was intrigued by his entirely different take on everything – driving, vehicle, harness. the world, the universe. He was cordial and very willing to share his thoughts and ideas with me, a stranger, and didn’t try to sell me anything. He just seemed happy to chat. His ponies always seemed to look happy in harness, and he and the other humans were obviously having a blast.

It was all just part of the information stream for me. There’s always something to learn, and since I love this kind of stimulation, I’m always happy to find a source that diverges from the beaten path. Don’t have to follow 'em on any kind of permanent basis, but I love seeing where that path goes. And I also find that studying the alternative gives me a clearer understanding of the traditional.

Last spring when my daughter and fellow members of the state youth symphony were putting together a very creditable performance of the challenging Short Ride on a Fast Machine, for example, I learned for the first time what goes into a piece of “modern” music. By extension, I learned a good deal more about music. It doesn’t mean I’ll ever be a fan of certain kinds of modern composition, but I did come to love that one piece, and I will listen with more appreciation to future work that comes my way, and have a refreshed and deeper ear for the classics I have always loved.

May there always be a saddle charioteer for us to discuss, parse, deconstruct… and learn from! And may there always also be the classicist to give us that solid foundation.

Thank you Thomas for pointing out the problem with engineers who design, yet don’t understand the horse applications item will be used for.

Another terrific example would be the Michigan State University Chariot. School has Spartan mascot, they used to use chariot at football games for marking winning goals with a gallop around the field. New Chariot was designed and built by the MSU Engineering Dept. Yes it did look like a chariot, but about every poor design feature possible was included when they built it. Terribly front-end heavy. Massive wheels and axle, no balance at all. Fiberglas body with the appropriate design to work with the Spartans it was supposed to be carrying. Horses used were pricy Spanish imported Andalusians, donated by an alumni. Harness used was heavy draft, same as the show Belgians use. It just was a bad idea, that only got worse with each idea. Whole thing has since been “retired” because the football stadium was redone with astro-turf and the horses were “too hard on it” during the goal gallops.

I had seen this saddle chariot idea posted a while ago. I really went over the saddle chariot site, looked at his photos, asked questions of knowledgable people who had seen it in action. Concept was different, sometimes you can get new ideas from others.

It just doesn’t work as designed, concepts are flawed in their basic ideas. Engineering is not equine friendly. Pictures are cute, but probably just a prepared photo shoot. Happy ponies were not what my friend saw attached to the vehicle, especially by the end of the day at the show.

I saw no give or springs to comfort the ride or attachement to pony. Every movement is a jerk on him. With pivot point of the axle, lurching forward and back with rider weight on extended seat (fulcrum), the whole drive is jolting along into little holes or over bumps of a field. After such a cross-country drive with the stiff frame, smaller, hard wheels, the pony has to be fairly sore after a workout. His harness system doesn’t look like it pulls equally over body either. Doesn’t look fun for equine at all.

Sorry Don, I stick by my previous opinion. Just not a good piece of design, from the horse side of it.

[QUOTE=![](oodhors;2592187]
Thank you Thomas for pointing out the problem with engineers who design, yet don’t understand the horse applications item will be used for.[/QUOTE] My youngest daughter is a Design Engineer but has also spent a lifetime “helping” dad so she does indeed know a lot of the practical applications.

She works mainly designing very fancy glass and stainless steel structures. So she worked on the London Dome and the London Wheel and does those modern glass elevators that go on the outside of buildings and really fancy glass staircases etc.

When she was early in her career she met a bit of prejudice from the fabricators, welders and fitters. Not only because she was a Design Engineer, but good grief A GIRL!! (And a very pretty feminine one at that - I know I’m biased!)

She was called to site by a foreman who accused her of designing something that was impossible to get into to weld. So arrived and was treated with total macho contempt but put her overalls on took the welder and showed the guys how to do the job! And got the uttermost respect after that! Or else they were just too embarrassed to say they couldn’t do it! :wink: Debbi had been ‘helping’ me to weld carriages and other things since she was about 3! And learnt to weld properly when she was 13 or 14 when she helped me for real to build a garden ornament with a distinct carriage driving theme. She had the patience and did a heck of a lot of welding on this!
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornament0004.jpg)

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornamentgrown0005.jpg)

Lancaster university provide a mutual benefit link service for small businesses who don’t have their own resources. And they check the structure and integrity of design work from a safety perspective and using their engineering design students.

I had never heard of this or seen this thing, so I checked out the website. How funny! Horse drawn scooter! Alot of the links didn’t work for me so forgive me if the answer is easily found on the website, the first thought was what happens if the pony stops suddenly, are you left hanging on by the reins?

[QUOTE=Tho![](as_1;2592619]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornament0004.jpg)

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornamentgrown0005.jpg)[/QUOTE]

Wow!

[QUOTE=citydog;2593080]
Wow![/QUOTE] Concept of “she who must be obeyed”. Designed and built by me. And assisted by my daughters.

Health warning: This was not checked by Lancaster University :winkgrin:

I went and looked at the website…now, I don’t know diddley-squat about engineering, but I have a LOT of life experience, at my age, and I don’t see ANYTHING about that vehicle that looks like a particularly good idea, for either horse OR passenger…and the notion that one could ‘step off’, and then ‘release’, a vehicle being pulled by a pony/horse that was “moving on”, and maintain control of the animal, is LUDICROUS, to put it politely…Thomas put it EXACTLY right! The ‘inventor’ of this thing may be a bright guy(?), but it doesn’t appear to me that he has a LICK of common sense!
PS-VERY impressive metal sculptures, Thomas–what ‘material’ was used for the one in the second photo,with multiple figures?)
Regards to all,
Margo
in sunny New Mexico

Its privet hedging … Susan’s idea for a garden ornament and the hedging grew through the wire support frame and was just clipped to shape.

I just followed orders!

saddlechariot revisited

Morning everyone! As this forum has gotten way off track of original topic, I was wanting to visit the saddlechariot again via my self-absorbed approach…just in an effort to join in with everyone else’s approach here. Apparently not one forum member whom has posted on this thread has ever used the saddlechariot. That is too bad really, and basically nullifies all arguments against it. I do appreciate that everyone took the time to post, however. I assume everyone has just had too much time on the end of a leadline learning FROM the horse today and so has taken a break to enter comments at this forum.

As I understand it, the saddlechariot is fit exclusively to the horse. The driver is but the by-product of the affair; there to enjoy. I would hope that the many people whom do own and use the saddlechariot for their horses would enter feedback here on this forum for the benefit of those readers whom had not previously known about the saddlechariot. It only seems fair that those with real experience in this area would submit testimony to counter some of the comments made by those who are relying only on their ordinary way of thinking about driving; but again, have no qualifications or experience. “Poor Ponies”? Do any of you really know your ponies?

Several of you have gone to great legnth to prove your qualifications as horsepeople and horse-gaget experts which in general, in any field, makes those of a less base and humbler nature, question your experience. Those whom rely soley (and gratingly speak loudly) on past accomplishments within any normal route would not be interested in anything innovative, enlightened, or FUN…so how do you see fit to judge something that is outside the scope of your comprehension?

I compare it to riding bareback with a rope. We ride the circut here and my young Preliminary jumper tends to get overly excited at the shows; this due primarily to the activity of lots of horses coming and going and being confined for so many hours when at home he is not. The older horses do not have this tendency to overreact and have learned to re-direct those energies toward performance. Anyway, the other week at High Prarie, had taken the Prelim horse out for a jaunt on the trails around there, complete with helmet, leather halter, and a leadrope and after awhile we were tearing along up and down the hills jumping the ditches (which is great combination of fun and fear without a saddle!), and in general, just letting loose. I had hopped off and my horse took a good roll and was just getting back up when along down the trail comes a horse and rider, complete with all tack (including running martingale) and a fully turned out rider. The horse is puffing and foaming and way above the bit jogging nervously and the rider has about 20 lbs. of pressure on that bit and mouth shutter. She rides past, to my horror (her horse was obviously a timebomb because of HER RIDING), looks me up and down, scoffs at my appearance there in shorts by my newly rolled horse, and she tries to purse her lips to smile that “I’m better than you” smile, when her horse takes off, headtossing and then I really saw how high strung she was…a total nervous wreck and totally out of control. Saw her horse go in the Adult Hunter hack class later…big suprise that he did not pin.

The way I figure it, we are always out of control with the horse, whether we have a leg on each side or are sitting in a cart. The only way it REALLY works is to develop the kind of FEEl, TIMING, EMPATHY, and HONESTY that the horse willingly brings to the relationship. Humans, and “horsepeople” in general tend to bypass that in favor of “training” and a whole lot of investment in gadgets, ie:bitting arrangements, saddles, carts, attire, so on. there is certainly the outward apperance of experience in such presentation, but does it really matter that much at the end of the day how much prize money, how many ribbons and trophies, or how much attention one has gained if one’s horse has a great distaste for one? Or perhaps the horse is somewhat agreeable to all the nonsense and simply has lack of trust for one…is it all worth it to be able to call oneself “experienced” at the expense of the horse’s wellbeing…mental wellbeing? How many of you whom commented (bashed) the IDEA of the saddlechariot can say your horse would willingly lay down his/her life for you? Who amongst you can say that you do not use underhanded approaches in training and practicing with your horses? How many of you can ride, lunge, drive without any gear at all? How many of you rely on gear to ride, lunge, drive? Who among you have become half horse?

Those among you whom have committed no sins should indeed cast the first stone. Unfortunately, you cast stones without reflection and without EXPERIENCE. You may have driven everyday of your life, started 500 colts, or win a class here and there but that does little to prove anything to the next horse in line. He cares not about your qualifications of experience and even less so about your gadgets and tack. He cares about himself and hopes to find in you a true and righteous leader and friend. He cares not for your attire or lack of; he cares about your way of being, inherent grace, maturity, and wisdom. People with wisdom, horsemen and not, generally do not bash other people and their ideas, ESPECIALLY IF IT BENEFITS THE HORSE.

Like the majority of true saints presently in the world, good horsemen are rarely in the limelight. Many tend to take a lower position and spend a great deal of time helping and learing WITH the horse. The majority of people using the saddlechariot are of that enlightened type. Their horses are generally barefoot, bitless, naturally kept, organically fed, long-lived, HAPPY horses that have brilliant connections with their humans. We need to ask these horses for their reviews of the saddlechariot via translation by their owners whom truly are FOR THE HORSE.

I am a greenie here and will likely not contribute nor waste time on these boards again. I think it would be better to be learning something from my horses rather than massaging my self-gratifying EGO on this forum anymore. Those of you whom prop yourselves up as masters are, in the true masters eyes, novices…because you are blinded by the knots and fetters of your own personal existence and unwilling to reach beyond your own personal limits. At least one person on this forum has broken several rules of engagement as set forth by registration rules for this forum. As he is a more vetern member, surely he will be allowed to continue berating and slanderizing whatever and whomever he wishes. It is no different than the “top-trainer” whom beats his horse in the warm-up ring then goes in for a 8 fault round. Nobody stops him because he can’t win anyway. I’d much prefer to be my trainer, warm-up in a bitless cavesson, talk to the horse, go in together and win that grand prix.

So again, thanks to everyone whom posted. Have had several great horsepeople tell me to try the saddlechariot for a couple of my horses…now that I see the other camp, I will be ordering one. By the way, the wire horse sculpture is really an astoundingly complicated, intricate and awesome piece of artwork. If we all only spent that much time with REAL horses…how much better in our hearts we all would be! Tally ho!:smiley: