Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

I wonder what “issues in the past” they were referring to? Had she been on the Vet list?

Chad Brown mentioned that she wasn’t on medication. Perhaps the Vet thought she has needed too many meds in the past? Brown’s comment about medication makes me wonder.

I know that Brown said he was going to drop the subject and move on (good for him) but has anyone else familiar with the horse spoken about the Vet’s reasoning for the scratch?

Do track veterinarians have a standard protocol used to put horses on the vet list? It seems weird to have a trainer and a vet at this level disagree about soundness. Is this sort of disagreement common?

4 Vet scratches in total for today’s races. https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/236813/imperial-hint-scratched-from-breeders-cup-sprint

Who said there is no accountability? Just because the vet didn’t announce why doesn’t mean vets are not doing their job. They shouldn’t have to agree to diagnostics. Horses get scratched by vets all the time, just usually not in the breeder’s cup. I’m glad these races are being treated like any other races. Chad brown has moved on…why don’t you?

:lol: :lol:

This is called having a discussion. Feel free not to participate if it offends you.

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Vets working for the state, and probably the track owners too, have absolute authority to declare a horse unfit for competition. The horse goes on a list, and has to work in front of the vet, jog back sound, and pass a drug test to get off the list. Horses on the vets list are not eligible to enter a race. The specifics can vary state to state. Apparently Stronach hired a bunch of extra vets to work the Breeders Cup. The number of vets working for the state is usually consistent. They are being super picky and scratching any horse with a blemish.

And then there are the private vets, who work for the trainers/owners. They can give an opinion to the trainer as to whether or not a horse is sound, but they have no authority and can’t force a trainer to take a specific action.

Has anyone seen statistics as to whether the proportion of catastrophic horse breakdowns is greater now than it was, say, 25-30 years ago? I’m just trying to understand if something has really changed, or there is just more attention being focused on it now.

Those statistics don’t exist. They did not start tracking the breakdown rate until 2008, and the rates have decreased as information became available. Google Equine Injury Database.

There are a number of people asking that same question, from fans to racing officials. As Palm Beach said, unfortunately we don’t have a source of data going back that far. The equine injury database wasn’t conceived until the late 00s, and participation is voluntary. Some tracks have been keeping their own in-house data on this, other tracks don’t (or don’t share it if they do have it).

Personal anecdotes of perception vary.

But, there certainly have been a number of history “high profile” breakdowns before the 00s when this became a hot button topic. Ruffian, for starters. Go For Wand in the 1990 Breeders Cup Distaff. Prairie Bayou in the 1993 Preakness. Cool Reception broke down in the 1967 Belmont Stakes. Timely Writer in the 1982 Gold Cup. And I’m just naming ones in big, marquee races-- the type of races that would be televised and make national press.

Hollendorfer had an Eighth horse die today - eighth of the year. Still setting records.

He had one break down at Del Mar a couple of weeks ago (on November 30). Eight in a year sounds like a lot. How many horses does he train?

Not at Santa Anita but good news for Prince Lucky and connections. https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-care-category/prince-lucky-diagnosed-with-bilateral-sesamoid-fractures-but-surgeon-optimistic-he-can-be-saved/

Thanks for posting this update as the original article on BH just said he’d been vanned off with a boot.

I am more than happy to see the connections are willing to go the extra mile for this gelding so he can retire in comfort :encouragement:

Thanks for sharing the update. Last I had read was he had been vanned off in a boot.

In less than 3 months this thread will be a year old.

Isn’t Belmont up to about 39 deaths this year? I heard someone else talking about it but haven’t had the chance to go check the actual Stats online.

Dang. I wish it was a thread that I never had a reason for starting.

I would agree it would be nice to not have had a reason to start this conversation but it is a conversation that should have been started to identify problems and work to resolutions to minimize catastrophic and career ending injuries.

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Agree. And they do need to track deaths by trainer, even if they don’t publish it.

But as with anything… just tracking ‘names’ can and will be misleading. Should be, IMO if this were to be tracked, tracked as with track stats… per start. Vaporous numbers can make it easy false assumptions.

I would guess (hope) that whatever database they track the horse deaths in there are fields for trainer and therefore that data can be gathered. However to really assess that data there is likely other data that needs to be merged into that database.

So if Trainer A on average has 25 horses in training per day 365 days a year and has 4 horses that break down/euthanized every year on average that is different statistic than Trainer B who has 10 horse in training for just the Fingerlakes meet and averages 2 horses euthanized every year on average. Trainer B has less deaths per year but a MUCH higher percentage of his horses in training died compared to Trainer A. There may need to be a way to compare number of death per training days or per starts or some other baseline.

I am going to preface this with I know NOTHING about racing. However I can see a potential difference in mortality stats on a trainer that obtains a lot of their horses in low level claiming races where they may not have that horses full xrays and all of his vet treatment history available. They may be more likely to unknowingly inherit an issue caused by other trainers or just lack of available information.

Compare that to a Bob Baffert who primary runs stakes horses who have come through high end sales so have lots of x-rays available before they start to race. Then they spend the majority of their racing life with one trainer who has either their whole vet history or at least the overwhelming majority of that history. Even if they switch to a different trainer my guess is that the vet history and treatment history is better documented and more likely to transfer to the new trainer/owner.

The trainers that primarily train stakes horses may be more likely to have owners that can afford to have a PET scan, bone scan , MRI or ultrasound if the horse takes two funky steps rather than an owner that the horse really needs to be lame or longer term NQR before advanced diagnostics would be considered.

Comparing different trainers based out of different tracks and different footing may not be possible if one of the track footings is contributing to breakdowns. So even if you use a baseline of number of breakdowns per training days across the country if a particular track has a higher incidence of breakdowns per training days then comparing trainers from that track to another track may not give the whole picture.

Straight up comparing the number of deaths per year per trainer likely is not as straight forward as it seems on the surface.

Disclaimer: My husband does data mining and data evaluation for a pharmaceutical company so I have a little bit of insight from talking to him on how much can go into comparing evaluating complicated data points.

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