Schooling Incident at Palm Beach

[Policy_of_Truth]

I want to echo some comments, that I think are valid, but not necessarily appropriate for this incident. Yes, we all know the necesity of getting back on a horse after a bad fall. I know about it first-hand. I understand what the person said about the psychology of this and why it might have been necessary to continue BASED only on the psychology. I’m am in my final year of my MA in counseling.
My concern is that for whomever saw this incident, it left a strong impression that nobody cared about what had just happened. And if the reports are correct, then I believe that it is a fair assessment simply because of this one point: THE OFFENDING POLE WAS CONTINUED TO BE USED.
I can assure you that using the pole was not necessary to help the riders who observed this to be less fearful of the jump. If anything, it harmed the psyche of the riders. And I have to say this too…what about the psyche of the horses that observed this? Horses are impressionable creatures too.
As for the rules, I know from a reputable trainer that unfortunately, poling is not against AHSA rules…only FEI.

[This message has been edited by pacificsolo (edited 01-24-2000).]

[system]

In this rapidly shrinking world, due to the mammoth growth of internet communications we are going to become more and more aware of terrible accidents, such as this tragedy, happening all over the world. In the pre-technology days, this would have been a story that was known by a small group of people, spread out a bit by word of mouth, perhaps get in the Palm Beach paper, but never spread to the magnitude such as is possible now. I’m way over on Vancouver Island, in Canada, and this story has affected me today.
Technology has it’s plus’s and minuses - we will be barraged by more bad news than ever before, which can be depressing, and some may be overwhelmed. But, we can hopefully try to gain something from this loss and be more alert as riders…constantly watching for possible dangers to our horses. (I started thinking about the common metal poles and chain sets used to set up temporary dressage rings…could be trouble waiting there)…anyways, just wanted to give my condolences to the owners, the people that were close to that horse, and it’s rider. They will be in my thoughts and prayers tonight, as well will George, who I hope has learned from this and will be able to express his thoughts and feelings to us all in a way that will enable us to forgive his mistake(s). We’ve all done many careless things that luckily have gone by without consequence. For George, this one didn’t…imagine, as a coach, actually witnessing the event and being a prime person involved in a horse’s traumatic death, and knowing that YOU may well have prevented it… I’m sure he will have nightmares for a long time and many regrets…

[Louise]

Erin

Does the Chronicle have a reporter on the scene and how soon can we hope to hear something from that individual?

I have never been a fan of George Morris and I spent one of the worst nights of my life last night, tossing and turning, thinking about that poor horse. I’m still angry and disheartened. But, I have to agree that we need to wait until ALL the facts are in, before we make a final judgement. Right now we are basing what we say on hearsay, and I’m sure all of us have had first hand experience with the way stories can grow and change as they are passed from person to person. If what we are hearing is all true, then I would be one of the first to ask that Mr. Morris retire, but, let’s give him his fair hearing first.

[Lois]

Monica, you say "please note that all reports - from several different sources - indicate that Mr Morris CONTINUED TO USE THE METAL POLE!!! but so far, no one has indicated a news source for this story.

All the “reports” that I see on this board strike me as being more closely similar to ones found on the Urban Legends web page than and authoritative source. No one yet (to my knowledge) has posted saying they personally witnessed the event. No one has yet mentioned where or when it occured.

The story has evolved from a training incident to a clinic to a private clinic to… I’ve seen similar horror stories which were sent to me via e-mail only to find they’re just modified versions of well-worn urban legends.

Before we start firing off letters of indignation to governing bodies, shouldn’t we at least find out if this incident even happened? Folks will look pretty foolish if they’ve sent out indignant, horrified, and furious mailings only to find later it didn’t happen, or it did, but George Morris wasn’t involved. It will certainly reduce one’s credibility if they’re seen as becoming hysterical (and yes, some here have certainly become extremely worked up about this) over a fiction.

Some people have claimed wood poles to be safer because they’re "designed to break upon inpact. That’s all well and good, except often they don’t. If they do break, you’re now facing two sharpened, ragged, dangerous ends of the pole. If the horse or rider has fallen, they may find themselves impaled on one or both of the ends. I have seen this happen. Luckily no deaths occured, but career ending injuries did.

Placing tennis balls on the end of poles, metal or other variety, is about as effective a protection device as your car’s bumper at 75 mph. Great at preventing low speed impact damage, but if the weight of a horse comes down square on the end, its not going to prevent impaling.

For those who are just itching to flame everything I’ve said so far, I’m willing to accept your anger, indignation, etc. and likely even join you in it, as soon as you show me some independent report that this actually happened.

[This message has been edited by Lois (edited 01-24-2000).]

[poltroon]

Setting aside the issue of poling in general, I saw a few posts where the posters “would never jump a metal pipe” but use PVC rails instead.

Be aware that PVC can be very nasty, especially if homemade rails are used. They are light (making them very likely to come off the jump in the just manner described for this accident) and shatter into sharp, pointy shards if they break, making them very likely to cause an impaling accident as described here. I wear an impressive scar as testimony, and all I did was fall on a commercial PVC standard where the owner had not sprung for end caps.

[brilyntrip]

Now I cannot believe that I am saying this but…I am quite sure that Mr.MOrris didn’t think that there would be a problem with the metal pole.Unfortunately he was wrong.I am sure that he was upset by what happened and so forth.I truly believe that any person who has been in this business as long as Mr.Morris has been does it for a love for the animals.Yes perhaps I am giving Mr.Morris too much credit!But I am trying to be fair here.Although there ARE reasons for metal pipe poles being banned from shows(from anywhere that a horse jumps as far as I am concerned).I am literally ill over this …if it was on private property nothing can be done,if however it was on show grounds that is a different matter.Just remember it is doubtful that George Morris is actually as cold hearted as you all portray him,he is a man and a craggy one at that but…he probably doesnt know how to handlesituations like this even after all these years,seems logical to us but not him perhaps.As I said before I am quite sure that he didnt think anything would happen.It did and he is going to have to live with this memeory forever.For a very intelligent person to make soo many bad choices in one day is staggering!!! So very sad for the owner and the horse .Really just such a shame.

[rusti]

In response to the writer who said the person who only jumps small jumps was being naive, i think you are dead wrong. Yeah poling and worse happens all the time in the jumper world, however some of us know better and do not ever allow these training methods to be used on our horses. This coming from a past successful junior/amatuer owner rider-
Hopefully that so called naive writer will continue to believe just the way she does now

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by austinfreud:
The “Little General’s” attempts to cover up his failures as a human being by fabricating a story in which the horse impaled itself with caulks and not own up to the truth of the horse dying due to a metal pole piercing the horses heart is just an embellishment of his callous attitudes to rider and horse alike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Y’know, I think I’m a pretty patient person, but some of the attitudes here are really starting to tick me off. I have always said that the only rules of this board are to be nice and be respectful. I don’t care if it’s George Morris or George Jetson, but unfounded allegations are NOT OKAY. Ever.

If I’m wrong I’ll stand corrected, but since both the Chronicle and Practical Horseman have reported that George isn’t able to comment on the issue at this time, I’m dubious as to how and to whom he related this “fabricated story” about impaling caulks. There is so much unsubstantiated rumor flying around this whole issue, it’s utterly ridiculous.

I want it to stop… now. I’m not one to squash free speech, but comments like these are just inflammatory and are hardly constructive. I’m extremely hesitant to close any topic on this board… but I will close this one if this trend continues. It’s gone far enough.

Now… as for the AHSA. The reason they were able to suspend all the insurance fraud people is because they were either convicted of or pleaded guilty to their crimes. The due process of courts of law were followed, decisions were handed down, and then the AHSA was able to take action.

At the moment, it doesn’t appear likely that the AHSA has jurisdiction in this case because it did not take place at an AHSA show. (Although this has yet to be confirmed, it looks like the most likely scenario.) It also seems unlikely that any laws were broken. Bottom line: the AHSA may not have much recourse in this situation.

Now, can we all attempt to return to some semblance of civil, adult discussion? Or do I have to put on my mean old moderator hat and get nasty?

[J_Turner]

One of the first things I learned when I started riding and jumping was never to jump an unsafe jump. Pony Club beat that into my head. I think in their manual they list unsafe jumps. Number one is metal objects … poles and unsecured or rusty barrels. Come to think of it, I remember George in his Jumping Clinic criticizing jumps whose extra metal cups hadn’t been removed. Talk about a hypocrite (if indeed the rumors are true)!

Don’t worry folks … none of the powers that be will ostracize him. There are many trainers we look on as reputable who are associates of criminals like Barney Ward. For instance, the Schlusemeyers are clients of Barney, for instance. Hillary has gotten jumpers from him. Rodney Jenkins has ridden for Mr. Gill who now is partners with McLain. Jane Forbes Clark has Leslie ride her jumpers and hunters. Leslie works with George. Think Leslie would disassociate herself from George? NOT. So many people are willingly and publically associated with the tainted of the horse world – ones set down for abuse, meds, killing horses, etc. – it’s really a sham. Shall we play "Six Degrees of Separation? Darn it, we don’t even need six. Try three. Name a name.

[heelsdown]

I was in Wellington on Saturday and heard nothing. My riding buddy was there yesterday and heard nothing till I told him about it today. He said that, yesterday morning (as every day) there were so many people watching George give lessons with his megaphone that they had joked that next thing you know they’ll be selling rail space at the Hunterdon Schooling ring to recoup the $35,000 rental cost. My trainer has been there every day and hadn’t heard anything about it till we called and told her. She was shocked. To me the silence is very telling, and not in a good way. The lack of dialogue amongst the so-called horseman showing there I sincerely hope is a temporary thing. The rest of the professional community is either afraid to condemn George because a) they do the same or worse on a regular basis, or b)they don’t have the guts to take a stand against a guy who is supposed to be at the top of the heap.

I don’t understand why there should be two sets of standards/rules, FEI for “everyone else” (except of course when we are competing at an FEI event) and then AHSA slackly enforced rules the rest of the time.

Also while at Wellington I witnessed people driving their golf carts on paths clearly marked “horses only.” Kids and adults driving the carts and whizzing by horse’s butts within a hairs breath. Geez, I’d hate to have a greenie there, are all those horses on Valium? More accidents waiting to happen.

The dog situation is also clearly out of control and I’m a dog lover. I had my Labrador with me (on a leash) and as we walked past the rows of barns dogs continually charged out at us. Some of them looked like they might not be too friendly either. Several times I had to place myself between the dogs, hoping that there wouldn’t be an incident, and praying that the owner would come out and tell me “he’s okay…” My dog loves everybody and doesn’t realize that some are nasty. One of those dogs who charged out of the barn, without a leash was a very large Boxer. He looked a little suspicious and followed us aggressively all the way to the parking lot. He turned out to be an okay fella, but I was worried for his welfare. Guess what barn he was at? Hunterdon!

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 01-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 01-25-2000).]

[system]

Without passing judgment, Erin, may I ask a technical question re jurisdiction. If GM has a private ring, leased from and adjacent to the WEF grounds, how do we determine public/private issue? If jumpers/grandprix horses are schooled there, does it not HAVE to be considered show grounds, since I believe they are required to be schooled “on show grounds?”

[Tower_One]

My thanks to all on the board who have toned down the rhetoric, and are now discussing in which direction we may be headed, in the wake of this incident. many questions need to be answered, and the only way to an adequate solution, is open, non-hostile communication. Regardless where you stand on this issue, you must feel as I do, that this is certainly a very sad way to start the circuit, and the new millenium. Thanks again. ken

[wileycoyote]

I am very sad to say that the horse industry of which I have been a part for over 30 years makes me ashamed.
This injury was tragic to be sure, but doesn’t the tragedy start with the owner who wants success at all costs?
Trainers now go to drastic measures to insure that their hunters will be quiet on course through drugs & infections, and their jumpers jump high, through poling or gymnastics or whatever. This is because after they have gotten their big commission checks having convinced their owners to buy this commodity (note I did not call it a horse because for most of these people, it is not a living breathing creature) they now are responsible for making sure the horse wins, at any costs, or off will go their affluent owners to another trainer who will promise success by whatever means.
A lot of owners don’t even LIKE their horses, and hardly know them or anything about them.
Not only are they poor owners, they are poor parents and spouses as well for they don’t care enough to educate properly their significant loved ones that do ride. They don’t breathe in the smell of a horse or feel his warm breath on a cool day or hear the sound of his welcoming call or just be amazed by the softness of his lips.
A rider who does not understand the beauty of the horse and his natural way of going has never realized that the horse is so beautifully balanced when free and struggles with his balance all the time when carrying a passenger.
Don’t get me wrong, for of course there are some wonderful riders and trainers who allow the horse to be and care very much for his well-being, but not many of them are famous or are training on the circuit. They are at home, making those $50,000 pre-green horses that someone buys, exploits, resells, and kills on a lunge line, or with drugs or with a stupid egotistical exercise like a metal pole.
Isn’t there a rule about using anything but bamboo on an AHSA showground?
Where do we draw the line?
And why did this poor dumb amateur rider go ahead and jump this jump, knowing the danger? Were they stupid, peer-pressured or just so naive that they thought it was okay. Probably it didn’t matter to him anyway, since the horse was more than likely insured, and they will buy another and not mourn a single day.

I, on the other hand, will mourn for the loss of this gallant soul, who jumped with his heart and not his head because a person asked him to do so and I will mourn for my sport and what it has become.

[SGray]

Over the course of this thread we have had posters take the time to look up and give us quotes from books written by Steinkraus and deNemethy regarding the use of metal poles as schooling aids as well as anecdotal evidence from others that it is common practice (at least here in US). So, we have trainers who are considered as experts, well respected and well established in the sport (St. deN. and M. as well as others I’m sure) that use the technique in certain circumstances. Given then that this is established as being “accepted” practice within the sport (and given the publication dates of the books, long established) then perhaps some of us should rethink the positions here regarding the idea that anyone and everyone should have known better than to use such a technique; that such a technique was bound to cause this outcome. From these sketchy reports it seems that Mr. Morris was using a tool established for many years and used by many prior to this - thus, the event surely must be relegated “accident” status in that such an outcome, although conceivable, had not been experienced before this tragedy.

Now, debate over whether such a tool should be used is another matter - since the horrible consequences have now been seen, perhaps trainers will rethink such usage.

[wtywmn4]

That is absolutely the very WORST thing I have ever heard of!! This needs to be shouted from every point on this internet!!! This type of thing needs to be made public.

My hand is covering my mouth, and tears are welling up. Picturing a creature who only did what it was asked!!! People truly are IDIOTS! I am sorry to have offended anyone, but there is nothing else to say.

This CANNOT be hushed up. Both the trainer and rider/owner are responsible for doing this. SHAME doesn’t cover what they did. the word CRUELTY is what they did. A hapless creature, should not have lost it’s life for studity. This is as bad as it gets!

[Tower_One]

sorry. i forgot to pass along an observation I’ve made, again, being a new computer user and a rookie at this, but I’ve found a trend that is somewhat revealing, and maybe a little disturbing, the ones that seem to spew venom do not list their names in their profiles. Thoughts on that?

[This message has been edited by kenneth kraus (edited 01-23-2000).]

[amble]

My heart goes out to the student and owners of the horse that died in such a horrible and avoidable accident. The use of a metal pipe by ANY trainer is barbaric, arrogant, and a grotesque means to train. In fact, its not training at all, it’s just cruelty.

[Gry2Yng]

Sunny,
Please don’t take this the wrong way, I agree with you in theory, but lets face it, the heart of our sport is placing an obstacle (my grandmother would call this a dangerous object) in front of the horse and asking him to jump it. I am really just making subtle distinctions, not because I believe in poling, but because I think it is often a fine line that we walk in the sports of SJ and Eventing.
There are certainly people who believe that our idea of sport is dangerous at best, cruel at worst and they would not see the distinction between a metal pole and a wood pole or a metal pole and a solid cross country obstacle. While I do not agree with poling, I would not have to look hard to find someone who does not agree with riding cross country. I hope I am making myself clear and do not sound like I am attacking you, because I am not. I love my sport and I love my horses and I respect everyone’s right to have an opinion.

SGray
Thank you for so eloquently making you point regarding the on-going practice of using metal poles and why you consider this an accident. I tried and failed to make that point earlier and ended up coming off very poorly.

[This message has been edited by Gry2Yng (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Kate]

What I can’t believe is that he is still using the pole.

[This message has been edited by Kate (edited 01-23-2000).]

[BarbarosaXp]

How come only one person equated the metal pole with just another gizmo/gimmick? How can you all be so hypocritical? Are you embarassed that you too use tight standing martingales and head crunchers? I heard of a pony that flipped over just doing its warm up circle at an indoor show becase it stumbled and couldn’t get is balance back because of its martingale. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A METAL POLE AND A TIGHT MARTINGALE? The pony which falls from the martingale could easily fall on its rider or on something that would impale it just like the pole did this horse and yet you guys use tight martingales all the time. At least my husband’s crowd calls it like it is–they call them ‘tie downs’, plain and simple. You guys tie your horses heads down in all sorts of ways until their backs hurt and their hocks are bad but you dont see that as a problem. This was a freak accident just like the flipover pony was, both dangerous and avoidable, both shuld be treated alike.