Doubleeez, no one knows for sure whether this ring was all inclusive of the show grounds. From what we have been told, it is a rented schooling ring that GM has. The steward of the show would not have authority there.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IlonaE:
While it would be understandable that GM isn’t commenting on this incident, that’s no excuse for the Chronicle and Practical Horseman to have no reporting of the incident by now. There has clearly been sufficient time for them to investigate and interview people who were there, it’s their duty to report what happens, no just quote those involved. We get up to the minute news on just about everything, including lots of things we don’t care about, with the time that’s passed already, the FACTS of what happened and who was involved or in attendance cannot be out of the reach of responsible reporters. Wouldn’t you agree?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IlonaE, in case you don’t know, the Chronicle is a weekly publication. Practical is a monthly. Neither of us is CNN, and neither has the resources to provide up-to-the-minute news. We have begun investigating the story and have already provided the facts we have. Our Jan. 28 issue went to press yesterday afternoon (hopefully) and we were not able to get all the necessary facts by presstime. Being responsible reporters, we thought it best to get the whole story before we published anything.
As I have repeatedly stated, we will pass along any new facts when we get them, as a courtesy to the readers of this board (rather than making you all wait at least another week and a half, until the next issue is be available online). I think that’s plenty reasonable. Wouldn’t you agree?
I’ve already gotten one email requesting that this thread be shut down because it’s gotten so out of hand. I’m hoping the witch-hunt is over and that responsible discussion can continue, but I’m open to other options. Please email me at erin@chronofhorse.com if you have an opinion either way.
A friend’s horse was impaled through the chest on a tree branch while hopping over a jump made of branches in the woods. Horse OK, but needed lots of stitches.
Another’s friend’s horse slashed her underside between her front legs while jumping a spilt rail fence. She drifted a little and jumped the post, but did not clear it.
I witnessed a horse almost bleed to death when it jumped a metal barrel. We were trail riding, and the horse knocked the barrel with it’s front legs, rolling it 180 degrees, then put a hind leg through the rusty underside of the barrel, severing a major blood vessel.
What are opinions here on William Steinkraus?
His book, (I will print the quote when I get a chance) specifically supports the use of metal poles in schooling–in essence he seems to feel that this is far more of a humane method to teach a horse to be careful, particularly because of the “ring” that is caused in a rap rather than other methods such as manual poling, wires, etc. All I can say on this without knowing any of the individuals or seeing it is that if you choose to do this sport and work with animals there are risks to both. I would prefer to jump my horse over asolid jumps w/ gymnasitics to teach it and is it possible that this is what a metal pole is attempting to achieve?
I have seen horses and riders injured/killed in many freak accidents-this is the reality of the sport-it is a risk sport. What troubles me now more than ever is the lack of riding experience that people/horse no longer experience, many have never been on a hunt or even trail, so trainers are left to try and create/simulate something artificial to create respect in the horses jump and in the riders ability.
I have read GM’s book and articles and have had agreed on some of his beliefs & disagreed w/others. I have alway thought that while he comes off hard headed and a bit too opinionated, at least he appears to stand by what he says and not hide and lie (maybe this is why he continued w/ the pole). I find other actions I have read about even more offending ivolving drugs and other methods that are sly and hidden.
I could be completely wrong on this and am curious reading others opinions as well. However I do agree w/ Mr. Kraus, PETA would love this-but before you encourage them to use it may be at least some one who was there should be allowed to speak,
including Mr. Morris.
Amen, Louise.
How long can this really take, Erin? The incident occurred a week ago…was it so complex? Several posters have accused this forum of a “vigilante” mind set; it occurs to me that this is a phenomenon which occurs when those officially empowered to act are PERCEIVED as doing nothing. It is critical that the media do their job fairly, impartially, and in a timely manner.
THANK YOU ERIN! I promised I would not return to this board with the hostility and arrogant rhetoric prevailing, and drowning out any voices of reason that try to post. I personally spoke with George Morris this morning for almost a half hour in the booth here at WEF, and while I cannot relate our conversation, because it was personal, off the record and for obvious legal reason. I can tell you that George will address this issue, openly and honestly as soon as he can, I can also tell you this, he is devastated by the incident, and is shocked by the hatred expressed here. Let’s wait and hear what George has to say before any more accusations, and hatred fly.
And… please be mindful of how VERY seriously this would be taken had it been the RIDER who died!
“Serious”, as in criminal investigation… h-e-l-l-l-l-l-o!
It could have just as well been the rider. The legal implications are staggering!
I cannot even comment rationally on the aspect of him proceeding on with the class… I think that speaks volumes. I can’t conceive of being a part of such a nightmare, then continuing on my way - at least not on that day! I guess some people have stronger stomachs than mine…
And by the way, this is NOT a matter of “lack of common sense” … GM has been in this business for nearly 50 years.
I cant believe this! It might have been an accident, and I’m certainly not jumping on the bandwagon to have George impaled too, at least not yet. But I think this was a horrible accident that could have easily been prevented by following the simple rules of safety he preaches to all of us. I remember a few years ago in Practical he strongly reprimanded a woman who had an empty jump cup, a reachy groundline, and a pole under the oxer. That is a safe jump compared to jumping a 3’ fence with a bucket over it, or a metal pole! I feel so bad for the poor horse,and the trusting rider. I guess I don’t know what to say! I can’t believe the God of our sport would fall to that level, I want to believe it was just an accident, but it wasn’t cuz it could have easily been prevented! I am soo shocked and saddened and horrified!
Pat,
I would hope you have read enough of my posts to know how appalled I am by the incident. Clearly, I did not come off very well in writing this time. I think everyone has something to offer. I just think it is naive to think that this incident was a result of “should have known better”, of course the man knew better, a trainer of that stature who uses that technique knows exactly what he/she is doing. I am a firm believer that “winning at all costs” is an unfortunate motto in today’s society and especially at the upper levels of this sport. But that is the reason why this happened, that is the reason why poling is done.
Gry
[This message has been edited by Gry2Yng (edited 01-25-2000).]
Hi, everyone! I’m new here & usually frequent the ESearch BB. Just thought I’d put in my 2 cents about Mr. Morris’s blatent disregard for safety. I have participated in 4 of his clinics, given the first of January every year in Camden, SC. The last one I did in ‘99, he had us jumping a narrow set of boxes. There was one horse in the group that was apparently green & he actually took a rubber feed bucket & placed it on top of the already 3’ tall & 6’ wide jump. Tell me, what would have happened had that poor horse caught that bucket handle with a leg? Methinks George may be getting a little senile in his older years & is forgetting the basic safety that he has preached so loudy for so long. Anyone agree? SUZ
My feelings on poling aside, before anyone gets too fired up about how “obviously dangerous” jumping a metal pole is, remember this was not something that the trainer thought up the day the incident happened, and it may not have been the first time the rider had used the technique. GM has been training horses for a long time and I would imagine he has some experience “sharpening” horses. It is nothing new in the world of SJ - we just suddenly have a tragic incident that calls our attention to the practice.
Riders who jump 2’6" 2-3 times per week (not to single out any post, just as an example) are different than some of the professional about whom we are speaking. Try not to get too righteous about the fact that “even you know better”. Statements such as that are very naive.
Amused Cowboy, perhaps you should learn a little more about our sport before you jump down on it. George Morris has been an icon in this sport for years, and as much as I am appalled by this new low he has sunk to, he has earned some of his acclaim honestly.
You mean to tell us that there aren’t any trainers in your world who pulled the wool over some one’s eyes? Pulleese, if you really hung around here and listened to us you would know that not too few of us already didn’t care for George Morris before this happened.
Oh, and so, just because rodeos are “up front about it” it’s OK to spur a horse with rowels until it bucks you off and flip cows over with ropes and tie them up? I don’t get it, what exactly do you mean??? Amused, if you can dish it, you can take it.
I don’t seek out western BB’s and tell them why thier sport is wrong and that John Lyons is just a shiester empting your pockets, so why don’t you leave us to discuss OUR dilemma?
Back to some intelligent discussion…
I think the question is, what now? As best as been discovered, he was not on AHSA show grounds so he broke no rules. So that means that unless the rider speaks up, nothing happens. I do wonder though, if this animal is insured, will the insurance company view this as an accident or as something that could and should have been avoided.
I haven’t ridden English in years, and I’ve never shown English, but even I know who George Morris is and even I know that you DO NOT USE METAL POLES FOR JUMPING !!! I can’t imagine… i just want to cry. That poor horse! We need to let everyone know who is behind this tragedy!
what he did was wrong, but, i hate to say it, i think he will be let off easy because of who he is. its not right and it shouldnt matter who you are in times like these, but thats the way this industry works a lot of the times. this type of “training” needs to stop, NOW!!!
Rumour at WPB has it that the incident was not a clinic, nor was GM even there when this happened (and it did happen). Rather, a rider/trainer (not the amateur that owns the horse) was using GM’s private schooling ring to school the amateur’s horse for her, and is the one who jumped the horse over the pole element.
Resulting are two schools of thought: this report is just PR generated from GM’s camp, OR it is accurate. Since none of us here were there (or was someone?) it is necessary to give pause to the DIRECT correlation of GM with this incident. IF any on-site witnesses provide an honest account, then we’ll know more about the facts of this event. Certainly IF this WERE a clinic, there should be numerous witnesses.
Of course, regardless of WHICH trainer/rider it was, or of whether a clinic was involved, the horror and tragedy remains and all of our passionate responses are just as valid going forward!
[This message has been edited by Kate (edited 01-24-2000).]
I’m new to the board and this incident is what got me here to read about.
I was totally shocked by what happened and appalled that someone who so many people respected and i myself at one time did could witness and cause such an awful event! Does anyone know where i could get mroe info on this incident? i’m anxious to know what the AHSA plans to do to GM, if anything. Even if the AHSA does nothing think of all the people who won’t go to anymore of his clinics or won’t respect him as a horseman or teacher. I know I won’t attened any of his clinics or anything. If he did this once and is didn’t seem to bother him wouldn’t it be possible for him to do it again???
WOW ! Wufpack3 you are aptly named . I cannot understand the hate for someone I find to be so knowledgeable and helpful.I’m remembering this kind of pack mentality before.Many years ago I whipped in to a pack of cross-bred hounds. We brought in an older American hound known for his scenting ability.He was great! All the hounds honored him and followed him. For a year everything went well.Then this lead hound began to suffer in the back legs and the hounds started to attack him in the kennel.We could no longer put him in the trailer with them to travel so he rode in the pick-up with the staff.Yep — they finally killed him and they had followed him for so long that they could not find another leader they could believe. We finally brought in English hounds.Does anyone see a simile here ??
Oh my gosh!!
How foolish could you be? George, for someone who is sooooo considered about the world today, and how we should look and how are horses should look. What laugh off the old block. Hey George, I have a question for you. Were you just to lazy for safety?
George WAS teaching the amateur. I KNOW the “other” trainer (who usually helps the amateur) and he WAS NOT teaching, she was having a lesson (or a “clinic”) with Mr. Morris. Those are the “facts” from the ‘other’ trainers mouth. You can take this statement to the bank, I am certain of it.
Does anyone have the e-mail addresses to the AHSA directors and to the Practical Horseman editors? This string of messages should be e-mailed to them, to multiple individuals. They should see the collective opinion of us, the public, and their consumers, and they should be made aware immediately.
