Good for you, Erin!
I just don’t understand…if I were the A/O that participated in the clinic and just witnessed the horific death of my horse I would have marched myself out of that ring, never to return…many of us feel for that rider…but obviously, the rider must not feel all that bad if she/he returned on a different mount to continue in the clinic…how crazy is that? does she/he fear the wrath of George? and what about the rest of the riders? wouldn’t you be a bit concerned that it could happen to you? maybe they figured since they weren’t going to get their money back ( I assumed they paid for the clinic) they might as well ride in it…I don’t know, it’s senseless to me.
If any of you people have spent any time at the shows with all these “respected” horse people, you would realize that most of their motives are monetarily derived. Sad to think, but true. BIG BUSINESS selling flesh and blood for hundreds of thousands of dollars… Gotta get that comission - and so does the person that recommended the horse, and so does the person that found the horse, and so does the person that trains the rider that the horse will be for.
The reason that HORSE SHOWS take place is because of the horse. So many professionals have totally lost focus on that point. It’s more of a fashion show, and a social thing, and whoever has the most money wins! Talent takes a back seat these days. It’s sad, and it’s one of the reaons that I could never go back and have anything to do with that group of people. I really miss the animals, but not the BS that goes with it. A lot of these amateurs don’t even know basic horse care (same with the juniors)(AND some of the PROS!!!) and certainly don’t make up for it with common horse sense. I know that some of them can’t even bandage a horse, and some can barely tack up a horse. Why bother with the whole thing? Just to impress people and spend some more of the family’s money? Buy your way into the right circles? Please don’t think I put all a/o’s and juniors in this category, just the majority that are hanging out in Wellington…
And Erin, or anyone, could you please explain what the 24/7 agreement is that I was told everyone signs at WPB?
no words can express what i am feeling
Doubleeez, this happened on private property NEAR the show, so I do believe nothing will happen unless the rider files charges.
Gray, again, just because one knows the risk, and is a big name doesn’t make it better. Your post did seem to state that those once-a-weeker’s have no grounds to offer opinions.
I echo the sentiment that if the rider had been killed or hurt, he’d be in a whole 'nother pickle right now. If it had been me or our horse, my BF would be in jail right now for having made mince meat of GM. I may be be wrong, but if the rider had been killed instead, there could be grounds for serious criminal charges.
Yes, there is risk involved in just mounting a horse. That still doesn’t mean that you don’t take all reasonable precautions.
Allow me to play amateur physicist. (sp?) Wood poles, even 6 footers weigh significantly more than that metal pole, which is usually only about 1 inch in diameter. So, that wood pole hits the ground and doesn’t bounce very high. It will roll which isn’t great, but it doesn’t come back to you like a spear. That wood pole also doesn’t travel very far in flight, so there is always a chance that the horse will land farther away from the jump then the pole. Now that metal pole, with it’s small diameter and lower wieght is by far more likely not just to bounce back, but to bounce one end leading in the air. Now you’ve got a long sharpish object flying back up at another flying object, the horse. If it comes up at the wrong angle, there you have it.
Now if that pole had been an even lighter bamboo pole, even if it bounces back in the direction of the horse, it will break or splinter. Yes, the horse could still be injured, but not impaled. Add some layers of duct tape over the ends and you dull it’s sharpness even more.
Now, I’m not the sharpest caulk in the box, and I figured this all out by myself. It all sounds like an unreasonable risk to me.
I don’t like light weigh poles in general, they are like begging for a horse to get tangled. Sunday I gave a lesson with a schoolie I didn’t know who turned out to be quite a clumsy clod. 
Even over a tiny vertical he hit the jumps hard and sent the PVC rails flying. I crossed my fingers and toes every time hoping they wouldn’t bounce between his legs. I won’t be using the PVC rails ever again.
[This message has been edited by Pat (edited 01-24-2000).]
I could not agree more with the moderators. Let’s keep the dicussion to the facts.
#1 There was a metal pipe used. It IS in the posession of someone on the showgrounds. There is blood on it. Caulks were not the villain here.
#2 Using metal pipes and jumping tripe bars backwards shows very poor judgement, by any trainer. Having Adult amateurs school over these is careless, BAD horsemanship.
#3 This schooling area is surrounded by stable tents, from which anyone could sit and watch this.
#4 Before the Atlanta Oympics, one team got in BIG trouble because their jumps were incorrect schooling jumps. The FEI made sure that these team members were punished.
#5 Paul Schoekemole received a very hard time from HIS federation for poling a horse at his OWN farm… not on show grounds.
#6 Read the AHSA’s code of conduct.
#7 The lesson continued with a dead horse in the ring.
#8 Every rider, trainer and owner needs to make this perfectly clear the this type of abuse ( and that is abuse ) will not be tolerated… on off or adjacent to any show grounds.
Why keep it quiet about who the trainer is? I know people in WPB deciding what trainer to ride with, and I’d like to be able to tell them who! What was the purpose of jumping a metal pipe? Was it used as a pole, horizontally? The more I hear about incidents like these, the more I want to become a horse “Luddite” and disappear from the show scene altogether because I almost can’t stand what goes on anymore, …
Yes. Accidents do happen.
But accidents can be prevented.
As a hunter rider who truly loves riding hunters, or even as a rider in general or any person with common sense, this could have been prevented.
My trainer always does her best to make the jumps safe for us. We use PVC poles or wood poles, as does every single horse show around us I believe, and we compete in the Maryland and Virginia area, which is generally regarded as a large horse show area.
Personally I think that the father of hunters should know better. He criticizes us for our stupidity about jump cups, but uses something extremely hazardous, which is far more likely to harm anyone than jump cups. I’ve never seen or heard of a jump cup directly killing a horse.
But a metal pole can kill a horse very easily.
I still say, the AHSA Steward on the show should be notified in writing and asked to include it in their report, even though it was not technically on the showgrounds. Any Steward who refused to do so doesn’t have a whole lot of interest in the welfare of horses. I would then follow-up with the AHSA and ask them if it was reported. Surely if the AHSA stands for what it says it does, they have to do something - what would be up to them.
I was just sent this site from a friend and can not belive our teachers are teaching us to disregard our animals safety. We should also consider if those riders at the clinic where our childern or grandchildern. How must they feel if they were watching such an event!!! Would they ever want to ride again. This should leave scars on all the people who attended this clinic, and should move them to go to a higher authority to take some type of action against GM and his clinics. He should be held accountable for his actions. If this, so called expert, is doing this type of training, then what are others doing. Now they have an excuse by saying GM does it in his clinics.
I am impressed with the amount of comments on this and truely believe that if you wnat something to be done and happpen then make it so. LET US ALL UNITE IN THIS CAUSE!!! We can not help the poor horse but maybe we can prevent it from happening again.
Not only is he head of the USET he sits on the board of the AHSA. He is part and parcel in passing rules that we all follow. Of which, there are very strict ones about what can and cannot be used in the schooling area of a horse show. These rules are based on safety of horse and rider. Why is this not surprising to most of us?
The VENOM being thrown around this place is pitiful. If you are angry about the loss of this horse don’t take it out on each other. We all have our thoughts and feelings about this situation and we all want some kind of recourse toward GM.
The proper recourse in answer to Kenneth’s question about how to handle this is for thw owner and rider of the horse to sue GM due to neglegence (a tennis ball should have been place on the end of the pole). This is not an uncommon practice. No tennis ball is
One problem is that as coaches we are in a position of trust. The rider TRUSTS us, with all our knowledge and expertise, to make the right decisions to help them get the most out of their horses. Trust failed in this instance. I feel George Morris needs to come forward and address the situation. I for one will wait judgement until that time. At the very least I beleive an apology is necessary. Remember George, coaches learn by watching others. Some may have been watching you and may, even as I speak, be using that particular schooling technique at this moment. If this is a case of “do as I say, not as I do” the world needs to know.
These “Between Forum” are just like the back fence with people gossiping and talking about subjects that get blown out of proportion. I went back and re-read the original post. This person did not see something, she heard something and without any rhyme or reason there is a lot of rumors, stories, opinions flying around. I do not know George Morris, or Barney Ward or Mclain Ward or any head poobah of the H/J world. I do not always agree with GM. But until we get facts and verified statements as to what has happened we have villified a person. Erin, this has been a nasty thread and I’ll cast my vote to shut it down. I feel I have listening to a bunch of self-sanctimonious harpies. To all of you( I include myself), when you point fingers at other people, remember three fingers point back at you.
That is such a horrible story. did anyone drop out of the clinic? If i watched a horse die in a clnic, i think i would drop out no matter what were the causes of death. even if it was a natural cause or whatever. You’d think the others riders might find this distrubing to watch?! but especially if a watched a horses death which was easily preventable. why then risk your horses life? i can’t believe everyone would keep going, over the same jump . . .
[This message has been edited by kissy (edited 01-22-2000).]
This a quote from a post above :“I have known George for several years now, and I can assure you that all of the horses in his care are treated with the utmost respect. He is a true horseman, and I have never seen him put ribbons or prize money ahead of what is best for the horse.”
I disagree with the term ‘true horseman’ - because this single incident proves that is not correct. A true horseman does not resort to ‘tricks’ to get the job done. A true horseman would not apply a training technique that should be reserved for only rare cases, If at All, accross the board to an entire clinic of riders, and on at least 2 different days. REgarding respect for the horse, again, I question that since this technique shows a lack of respect for the horse. It assumes that the horse just isn’t trying hard enough, and if the trainer ‘punishes’ the horse sharply enough, the horse will be more honorable in his efforts. No horse likes to hit a jump, but when they are tired or sore or just jaded, they don’t make their best effort. Then the solution is to let them rest, make them sounder, or refresh their minds. But that requires that the trainer believe in his horses. You have to believe that given the chance, the horse will try hard to do well, if it is possible for him to do what you ask. And a true horseman who respects his horses, does indeed believe that. When a trainer or rider begins to think differently, then the fight is on. Now it is necessary to ‘force’ the horse to try, or Make him behave - through intimidation, pain or leverage. And to be honest, I know of numerous cases where Mr Morris has used these techniques on riders in his clinics. Therefore he doesn’t even believe that a human who has chosen to be in his class, and paid large sums of money will try hard enough if Mr GM doesn’t throw dirt clods at them, or insult them or ridicule them. So how can he possibly be expected to believe more of the horse who didn’t make any effort to choose to be there?
To those of you who don’t have any first hand experience in the horse show world, and cannot understand how a group of riders could willingly endanger themselves and their horses, let me try to explain. When a rider is trying to establish themselves in the very political world of showing - (especially the Hunter jumper world but other areas of horse showing are equally steeped in who knows whom and who is seen with whom.) it is critical to be with the “IN Crowd”. To question GM’s authority wouldn’t just get them thrown out of the clinic with no refund of $1000 invested to be there, but it would damage the rider’s chances of ever moving up in the world. What chance would such a rider have of Ever making the USET team? Do you think that Lord George would allow them into his private party after publically questioning his training techniques? And that explains why the rider of the dead horse came back the next day. She had to prove herself ‘mentally tough’ and up to GM’s standards. And let us realize that every one of these riders is already in the mental group that horses are really furry motercycles, and while you might be really fond of one, they are replacible tools to the trade. And why didn’t George take the pole out of the ring? Because to do so would be tantamount to admitting guilt. If he had taken it out of the ring, it would indicate that he had done something wrong in using it in the first place, and really, based on what I know of this man, there is no way on earth he would ever admit to that.
Now, what to do about this??? The first thing we need to decide is what are we teaching our Jr riders about winning? What are we saying about respect for our horses? Do we really think that a stronger bit, a tighter martingale, or sharper spurs will make the difference? Do we really believe that these creatures have to be intimidated into giving us more? Doesn’t anyone realize that they are already being incredibly generous in just permitting us to ride at all? The nature of the horse is to give and try and accept. And they do. And the thanks that they receive in return is ignorance, neglect, physical and mental abuse and punishment. We need to teach our Jr’s better than that.
To the poster who questions the difference between our outrage at this episode and our acceptance of neglect - well for me there is no difference. I have rescued numerous horses, who were starved, neglected, abused and poorly trained. I have rehabilitated more than I can count. I have also cared for my horses as they lived into their late 20’s and 30’s. They served as school horses as long as that was possible for them and then they were just fed the best, groomed and turned out to bask in the sun. I even have one mare with me who was mentally tortured by an ignorant man to the extent that riding is an unacceptable experience for her. I worked with her for 2 years and had her ridable, but she was never calm or happy. So I thought she might do better as a rodeo bucking horse. But the first time a cowboy didn’t fall off when she bucked her best, she simply flipped over on top of him. So she couldn’t even be a rodeo horse. She is living proof that we do not sit on our horses backs for 2 seconds without their permission. Fortunately, her basic temperment is sweet, and she will live out her days as a companion to my stallion. So I am consistent in my actions and my words.
I am also successful in the show ring. I have trained and shown a number of horses to championships in hunters, western pleasure and dressage. I am not a “big name” but I have competed at A rated shows and brought home the ribbons - so I do not exist in a vaccuum or hide in my backyard. I also teach numerous Jr riders - and what they learn first is respect for the horse. They learn to look at the horse as a friend, a companion and a teacher. They are taught to make resonable requests and to allow the horse to offer his best. They are not taught to force, punish or demand. I sleep well at night, and my horses welcome me every morning.
Will AHSA or USET do anything about this incident? I suspect there will be an invistigation, and yet in the long run, it will be declared accidental. There may be some commentary about the risk of using an upcapped metal pole, but I doubt that the overall attitude of using pain causing equipment to extract a little more effort out of the horse will ever be addressed.
Someday, GM will come to face what he has done. I don’t know if it will be soon or many years from now. But this was not really a freak accident - it was the inevitable conclusion of a long journey down the wrong path. And there are many other riders and trainers who are traveling on that same wrong road. Maybe a few of them will see where they are headed, and choose to turn back. In which case, this horse’s death was not in vain. It may have been the ultimate sacrifice to save many other horse. We can only hope.
[This message has been edited by Monica S (edited 01-24-2000).]
I’d like to think that you were being genuine but I have a suspetion that your comments were laced with sarcasm. Oh well. Opinions are like a**holes…everyones got 'em.
I hope everyone remembers that we enjoy the privilege of participating on this discussion board through the invitation of The Chronicle of the Horse. It’s their board, after all.
Which isn’t to say that posters should not criticize the Chronicle management, its writers and columnists, or any of the articles published. (Although Free Speech is relative, you know.)
It is to say that we should not put Erin in a tenuous position. She has requested several times that the tone of the discussion be softened. She shouldn’t have to beg us to choose our words carefully.
That she hasn’t closed discussion demonstrates that she has faith that we can grab a thesaurus and pick words that will convey our thoughts and feelings without resorting to invective. Let’s respond to her faith in us with respect for her.
A writer above stated (and I’m paraphrasing) that the reason a person or that person’s lawyer refuses to speak on an incident is because they are guilty. Although this is a commonly-held belief, it’s erroneous.
The rules of admission of evidence in a civil liability case are such that statements made outside the court may be received as evidence. That means, statements by a person or that person’s lawyer and as reported in, say, a newspaper article or television interview could be used in court. And if those statements are misinterpreted, misquoted, quoted out of context or edited, accompanied by inflammatory images…well, certainly it’s easy to see how something can be misconstrued. So, to avoid those complications–and, yes, sometimes to muzzle the out-spoken or less-intelligent person–
we have the comment of “No comment.” It’s “legal”–no one is obligated by law to speak to the press–and it is not indicative of guilt or innocence, despite how it “looks.”
Also, while it’s one thing for us to comment on an incident before the facts have been established–innocent until proven guilty is the law only in court; it’s merely a suggestion elsewhere–it would be highly irresponsible for an attorney to publicly comment on an incident–especially on something potentially litigious–until court papers are filed and reviewed.
As to the responsibility of the trainer, I’m surprised that only a few writers have discussed the free-will of riders. For example: If the rider feels, as do many who have written here, that the use of metal poles is dangerous and irresponsible, yet supressed those feelings and followed the directive of the trainer–how can we say that the ultimate responsibility is with the trainer? Or, if the rider has seen and used metal poles in training and had no issue with it–again, how can we say that the ultimate responsibility is with the trainer? In the above examples–which, of course, may not jibe with the facts of the situation–the ultimate responsibility is with the rider.
Remember–ultimate responsibility often lies with the rider. That is why the rider, not the grooms or trainers or owners, get sanctioned for violations.
Please don’t read the above as a judgment of blame on the rider. It’s merely an assessment of responsibility.
As for AHSA involvement–I’m not conversant with the rules, but I don’t understand how the AHSA could extent its jurisdiction to someone’s backyard, or a professional training facility.
Someone posted above in regards to cruelty to animals being a violation of AHSA rules and regulations. Just because there is an injury or death does not mean there was “cruelty to animals.” Sometimes and accident is merely an accident.
Ken,
I also hate to see a hero crumble, but he is responsible for his actions at the end of the day. Again, to CONTINUE THE CLINIC! If I had been the owner/rider and watched my horse die, put my horse in harm’s way because The George commanded me to do so, I would simply never forgive myself. Look, I don’t care HOW much he’s helped the “sport”…his devaluing of the animals involved leaves me speechless.
