It is exactly for reasons like this that everyone should not jump to conclusions. It started out in this thread that he was schooling a student, then it was reported that it was a group 2-day clinic. And now he might not have even been the trainer involved. Until all of the facts are made clear, perhaps everyone should withhold judging him.
I just don’t get why he would have anyone jump over a metal pole! 
Not matter how high the horse can jump or how well he can clear the jump. Thats just plain STUPID! And I’m suprised that GM had someone do that! I guess he is over respected, because he’s obviously lacking common sense! 
hi new to the list here sorry to say i found this list due to this incident with GM i dont know what to think it is a sad story and glad i wasnt there to see it. i have been dealing with show horses 3 yrs and will show my first time in few days, i am a novice showing hunter pleasure on a arabian stallion this should be interesting lol. i hope we get some more info soon i will be watching. also i hope to getinto jumping and dressage glad to find a list like this hope to learn alot. sorry i had to learn about metal poles this way would rather i die than a horse i was riding would never push a horse to do something i wasnt sure of or the horse either i dont have that kind of expiriance and dont feel it is my place to do so.
thanks for letting me join in with you
charlie
Bamboo, Metal? No comparison. No excuse! This is sad. I read this post when it came on earlier this evening and hoped it was not true!
I remember during the Atlanta Olympics I heard of a country that stabled at a private farm nearby the showgrounds that were caught putting wires above the jumps to make their jumpers jump higher prior to the games - They
got “caught” and were not able to compete in the Olympic games. I thought that was bad…but our own “leaders”…
THIS IS SICK! They are animals that TRY to do what humans ask. How far are people willing to go to make “the winner?”
Ken, in response to your PETA comment: Personally I am not fond of PETA - they have their headquarters in my area and do some crazy things, however, if this kind of training" continues, I wouldn’t be suprised if we don’t find them lying in front of our jumps.
Maybe they should be in the schooling areas. This is a tragedy and this is competely nuts! Someone has to take responsibility.
As far as I can determine, Surfotter is right about the legality and illegality of the practice – please note I am most certainly NOT speaking of the morality, ethicality, or safety of using metal poles. I searched the AHSA rules and could find no specific mention of the use of metal poles as offsets. Yes, there are specific and fairly clear rules about poling. Would use of the matal pole be considered poling?
If I can find them, I am going to check the FEI rules regarding use of metal poles, tack rails, etc. It is time for a rules proposal that states specifically that such items cannot be used within X days or hours of an AHSA sanctioned competition. The AHSA cannot control everything that happens in private, but it can regulate some things.
For those who complain that they need such methods to make their horses more careful, then they should note that, like all the other rules, if everyone follows them, it will be a level playing field. If people don’t follow them, then they risk the consequences.
There has been much talk on this board about rules that need changing, and I agree with much of them. We recognize the difficulties in getting them passed by the AHSA Board. However, this is something we can do and should do, and there is no better time than now.
I will draft a rules change proposal and post it here for your comments.
Let’s consider the Rules of the AHSA.
Article 702. Violations. A violation is any act prejudicial to the best interests of the AHSA, including but not limited to the following:
a) Violation of the rules of the AHSA.
b) Disqualification by a Recognized competition.
c) Penalization by an administrative agency, humane society or court of law for violation of AHSA Rules.
d) Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the AHSA, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the AHSA.
e) Any act committed or remark made in connection with the competition considered offensive and/or made with the intent to influence or cast aspersions on the character or integrity of the licensed officials, approaching a judge before or after a decision without first obtaining permission from the show committee or steward/technical delegate, inspecting a judge’s card without the judge’s permission, or public verbal abuse of competition officials.
f) Physical assault upon a person and/or cruelty to a horse as defined in Art. 302.
g)…h)…i)…j)…
By the majority of the accounts of the incident, it occurred in a ring that was not part of a show or show grounds. So you would need to have witnesses willing to testify before “an administrative agency, humane society or court of law” that Mr. Morris committed an “act prejudicial to the best interests of the AHSA”. Said agency would have to find against Mr. Morris, then the AHSA could consider a sanction.
I would consider the above unlikely - my assumption being that potential witness’s were students or employees of Mr. Morris. Heresay is not acceptable testimony. It will be interesting to see what comes to light once we get more definitive information on the table.
Also, Mr. Morris writes articles for Chronicle of the Horse… If some of you have forgotten… What happened in Palm Beach is a tragedy. A sad story. I wasn’t there and refuse to pass judgement until all the facts are out in the open.
I am not going to rehash every thing that was already said about the horrible negligence of Mr. Morris, or the sorrow of losing the horse.(I agree fully) What really blows my mind is that he used the same metal (illegal) pole the next day and that his students actually jumped it. Please, please let this be hearsay! If it is true then it is an act of negligence even more heinous then the first. There is no way anyone could claim ignorance to the risks of jumping that metal pole!! I am SICKENED by the thought.
This is my concern.
If this incident is dismissed because it presumably occured off show grounds, then governing associations such as the AHSA/USET are useless.
Off grounds schooling areas will become an instant hot item…
We are dealing with rules and a rule book that would choke an elephant.
Shouldn’t a members behavior on and off show grounds be considered?
Expecting our Industry publications and governing associations to take a moral stand is not unreasonable.
We should expect a full disclosure of this incident.
Putting off questions because of legal ramification is an interesting and over-used slant…
LucianCephus–WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THESE FACTS?? You have this man,tried, convicted, and sentenced. Thank god you are not on the AHSA board. And I take a great deal of offense to you comparing George with Tommy Burns.
This is disgusting… that anyone had the brian to do a horrible thing like that… They should feel terrible… UGHHHHH!!! 
Oh, yes Poltroon you are so right. And you should see how far those PVC rails can fly. I have only used the PVC rails once and will never, ever do it again.
All of the standards at the place I board and the place I teach do have the caps on top of the standards. I implore anyone who used them to be sure that the caps are screwed down as well, not just placed on top it a rush.
MB-
I think you are clearly missing the point we are collectively making about this entire incident. IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. Period.
I’m glad you feel as you do about getting all the facts. Just remember this: The simple facts are: 1) a metal pole was being used that any intelligent human being knows is dangerous, 2) The horse was impaled and thus killed on it, and 3) The CLINIC WENT ON…WITH THE METAL POLE!
I really don’t care what anyone thinks of GM. What he did that day was inexcusable.
If the rider had even thought for a moment that this might be dangerous, and had the guts to protect herself and the horse, it might have not happened…but we shouldn’t expect that since the same rider was back with another horse, she would do the safe and right thing.
How does anyone bounce back so quickly after a tragedy like that to be able to keep on with the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!!
You can say all you want in deffence of our comments, but it’s clearly obvious who of us care about the animals first, and who of us don’t. Pick your side, but pick it carefully.
I don’t know where this will end. After this terrible incident I am sure many eyes will be on every schooling area at the circuits.
This incident was a screamer, but just keep an eye on the jumper schooling area someday, before a large jumper money class.
You will not believe the creativity, and the dangerous situations a trainer put these poor innocent creatures in.
The Show Steward will be watching one moment and everything will be just fine. As soon as he walks a few feet away, they slip in something illegal.
There has been a great movement within the AHSA regarding Schooling Rules and the enforcement of same.
Everyone has the right to challange a rider who is not playing by the rules.
The level playing field…
But, the ruthless riders will at any opportunity, deliberately punish a horse to make it jump higher.
I think this incident in Palm Beach will explode… I do not think it will go away.
We in the industry have suffered enough by the actions of others.
Stand up and demand a review of the facts.
It does not matter if this was at a show or a private schooling area.
An animal was killed. And this man’s training technique was to blame.
You can not convince me that this was the first time this technique was used by G.M.
I too would like to hear his side.
But, he would think it beneath him to explain his reasons to anyone.
Keep your eyes on the schooling area…
I have seen horses get some pretty good holes in themselves from caulks, but unless this is September and we’re in Spruce Meadows, there is no way a horse could impale himself with caulks!!! (kidding about Spruce Meadows)
HORSES ARE NEVER SAFE. Accidents will ALWAYS happen, no matter how much care is taken & no matter what kind of equipment is used. THAT SAID, I AGREE THAT THERE IS TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON WINNING, WINNING, WINNING. A horse show should exhibit the NATURAL TALENTS OF THE HORSE, not use gimmicks to make them jump better, tighter, higher, or whatever. A horse’s jump can be enhanced at home with the skillful use of safe & reliable gymnastics, which actually teach a horse how to jump better, not scare him into it. George Morris is a master at gymnastics. I regret that he felt the need to resort to a gimmick.
I am saddened that the emphasis in the hunter/jumper world is on winning. This is brought about in part by so many participants thinking that they can pay their way to a blue ribbon. Well, it seems that they can – our top trainers know how to make a good horse show even better. Is this really what we want our horses to do for us?
We make fun of the Saddlebred people for using ginger, chains, and God knows what else to make their horses act & appear in the desired fashion. It appears that we should no longer make fun of them, and perhaps we should start admiring the Arabian freestyle shows (read this facetiously!) – where the natural beauty of the horse is truly at heart.
[This message has been edited by KitBC (edited 01-26-2000).]
From reading the entire thread, sounds like GM used [and probably is continuing to use] extremely poor judgement in schooling horses/riders. So poor, in fact, that a horse suffered a horrific death.
If eyewitnesses can corroborate the information, I believe that he needs to be removed as co-chef d’equip [sp?] of the USET. Those of us who feel strongly about this could petition for the action to be taken.
I will communicate to Practical H. that I don’t want to read about his opinions on jumping.
We can’t prevent those who want to continue putting themselves at risk from giving Mr. Morris more of their $$$.
>Since I touted the virtues of Bert deNemethy’s approach to turning out top jumpers, I took a quick look at the book.
Apparently I was wrong, he does find the use of a metal pole helpful with a stale horse.
Not as an offset or as the top or back rail, but placed on top of the top rail to give the
horse a bit of a scare if he hits it. The theory being that it makes a noise when it falls and will startle the horse. He feels that a heavy enough pole will not fly in front of the horse if hit but will instead drop to the ground.
Apparently there is a clear precedent for using metal poles in jumping, included also in Steinkraus’ book. (Now, I am certainly not saying that makes it OK, just that there is a precedent–and I hope it will change). From the posts on this board, there is also a clear precedent for horse’s being impaled on non-metal objects. So, I would not be surprised if Mr. Morris is cleared of any wrongdoing.
There is still no clear answer as to whether the horse in this case was being poled or as to whether the metal pole was a part of the jump. What is an offset, anyway?
I do not like poling either, but I think some of you are using this horrible accident as a springboard for your own agendas, whether it is to crucify George Morris, push for stronger poling rules, or push for AHSA jurisdiction off the show grounds.
Whether your motives are pure and for the good of the horse, or for your own reasons, I have no way of knowing. All I know is that there is very little compassion for the human elements in this story, and I find that sad.
Like Erin, I am interested in freedom of speech, but I also know a little about libel. That which is untrue and damaging to the character is libel if it is in writing. Slander is spoken. I don’t know much about Internet libel suits, but I am pretty sure some of you are crossing the line.
Every time you put your horse in that little metal box you call a horse trailer, you are putting his life on the line (see post on horses killed in Tx). Every time you point him at a jump, you are putting both your lives on the line. Do you know how many people were killed last year in recognized events?
When a big name is involved, things take on the tone of a National Enquirer type scandal. But, there is a mob mentality here that smacks of a witchhunt, as Erin said. May you have the patience to wait…
(sorry for the novel)
Once again Ken, it looks if you missed why everyone is up in arms. The “vigilanty” mentality that someone referred to is not what I read here. Outrage, horror, appalled by the senselessness of what happened. Emotions that humans have when they feel strongly about things! There is no rhetoric, only people letting their feelings out. In any tragedy this needs to occur! And this is a tragedy, make no mistake.
What happens from here, by the powers that be, will tell all of us in what direction our industry wants to head. Let’s hope, it’s a good path to follow…
wtywmn4, then this happened on the grounds, not private property? I thought this was at some farm he rented for the season.
Renting a farm for FLA is so fashionable I just assumed that was where he was.
