Schooling Incident at Palm Beach

[Laura_Reed]

Regarding any reference to metal poles in AHSA rules: Article 806 (poling) states that “single poles of bamboo only (not rattan or any other material) must be used.” Article 806 further describes the requirements of the bamboo pole and requires that “exhibitors must furnish their own poles and no other object may be manually employed.”

Article 302 (cruelty) lists “manual poling with any object other than a bamboo pole” under acts included under cruelty and abuse. The above referenced rules pertain to poling; nowhere in AHSA rules is it stated that metal RAILS, used as a component of the obstacle, are prohibited in the schooling area.

Article 2733 (jumper division courses - obstacle requirements) mentions the word “metal” only when referring to cups and pins.

Article 2415 (type of obstacle - hunter division courses) describes fences that “must simulate those found in the hunting field.”

What methods one uses in one’s “private practice” are, sadly, something the AHSA has no control over. AHSA rules do not provide for the fact that stupidity plagues some humans.

[rusti]

Hey, Was that horse that Barney Ward had a hand in electrocuting at an AHSA show when it was brutally murdered-I don’t think he was but B.Ward was rightly sanctioned by the AHSA. So why would GM be any different.
Also I’ve said this before and will say it again. Anyone who has been around the H/J industry in the “big leagues” for any period of time KNOWS that poling and use of metal poles is common practice. I’ve never heard of such a horrible incident coming from it before(although that is not to say it hasn’t happened-we just don’t know about it) and even though other tradgitys have not occurred to our knowelege doesn’t mean it is not a cruel and inhumane training method. Wake up people-it is your job as the owner of the horse to protect it. A pro doesn’t have any emotional attatchment to your horse-you need to be there and have the guts to say no when something is not right! I’m sure most of the people on this board do just that-however some people want to win at all costs, care litte about their horses if that wasn’t the case these practices would not be continuing to happen. I wonder how many people out there have used similar methods without a tragic outcome? Just because an “accident” didn’t occur doesn’t make the practice any less wrong.

[AKDragooPhoto]

Well said Flash. Some things can’t be avioded but we don’t need to go looking for trouble. An accident is exactly that, this is an incident.

My outrage in him continuing on {nothing said for using it in the first place} with the pole brought me a horrible visual of him leaving the dead horse in as an added obsticle. We are just as likely to encounted that in a class as a metal pole or a bucket. But as long as we jump clear and look good doing it what else matters?

There is not a week that goes by that I don’t defend the ligitimacy of our sport{s}. Our sport{s} are seen as elitist and lacking in physical demands. We get very little media coverage. How can I continue to defend our sport{s} when the epitome of the them show such a disregard for majority component.

Why is it that those who have risen the highest or can afford the most are the ones that bring shame to all of us who dream big and scrape together the change for a meager lesson? The tv show Law & Order jumped on the insurance fraud/murder angle a few years ago, let’s see what they do with this.

God help me if I ever reach the point where I have so much that the horses in my life are dispensible objects.

[Christina]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christina:
This is disgusting… that anyone had the brain to do a horrible thing like that… They should feel terrible… UGHHHHH!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Joker]

I am new to this but I find myself very sad and disheartened by all of this. While I am not the biggest GM fan I had always respected him and I cannot believe his poor judgement. I won’t pass judgement on him until I know all the facts but I will say this: my opinion of GM is tarnished forever. I love my horse and if that owner/rider did get on another horse and finish that clinic I say what kind of horse person are they? People think of horses like machines and things that easily replaced - I can’t understand that! This whole thing is a nightmare for the horse industry. I am very anxious to hear all the facts and my heart and thoughts are with that poor horse who gave his all!

[buryinghill2]

I said in my post that there are plenty of people who love their horses in Palm Beach, I’ve worked for them myself. I just think that most people on this board think that everyone is like they are, and love and respect their horses. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Palm Beach is about business for the majority of people there, and for almost all the trainers. As for George’s quote, it was published in a major magazine. George is a strong disbeliever in getting emotionally attached to any horse. He would be the first to tell you that, as he has told me on more than one occasion.

[horsegirl]

This just goes to show that we cannot put our trust into anyone else but ourselves. You just can’t look to anyone else to be a hero but yourself. We all make mistakes and let me tell you, i’ve had my share, some i still get upset just thinking about - but this sport and all other sports have this habit of putting these people that are at the top on a pedastal - but George is nothing more than a human being just like the rest of us - trying to make a living. Whether its decent or not - that would be another topic. We’ve made him out to be a god - I know I have - that was a mistake on my part. George is human - and George feels greed like a human - and george makes money from horses - and so the higher they jump and the more careful they are - the more money they’re worth - the more money he gets and the better he looks - well - greed has no business being with animals - it just doesn’t mix. It’s exciting to see it in action, but it’s tragic when things go awry. I’m a pretty competitive person - if I had the opportunity to be able to show in the big shows - I would. It would take alot of sacrifice and hard work, but I think it would be thrilling. I envy people that do it. I dream of being able to afford a George Morris clinic. But with it comes greed and envy and alot of other things that take away from the horse - I think that if you want to be at that level and you’re making money doing it - somewhere along the line the horse pays for it and I think I’d rather stay a little poor to keep my thoroughbred at peace. Well, where there’s good, there’s evil - there’s no two ways about it - and there’s nothin’ we can do about it. All I can do is try to be the best horseowner I can be and the best beginner riding instructor I can be - and forget the rest.
The most unfortunate thing though, is that I live by George’s methods in teaching beginers their solid foundation in hunt seat. My background is based in his methods and teachings. I just have to shake my head, pray for this guy and the horses that he never does this again, and leave it to the officials to reprimand him. I don’t even know, I would assume though that using a metal pole at any time is illegal?
The lesson that I learned from this though (although I just learned of it and call me nieve, i’m a bit in shock) - is that you really have noone else to look up to but yourself.
Mr. Morris is in a very competitive industry, as we all are- and that is his world. When things go wrong, animals die, become severly crippled and are in alot of pain. It’s an extremely difficult industry. And quite barbaric when you’re trying to make a living at it. There’s no way around it I’m convinced. It’s an incredibly difficult sport to become successful in (successful meaning that, you can support yourself and live the good life, get to take vacations, stuff like that). And unless you’re tough as nails (if not tougher) and you can look away from this stuff and go on (as he did apparently by finishing the clinic…) you’re just not gonna make it. And it seems that to make it these things happen like its just another day. Horses fall and die and people fall and die. It’s a very dangerous endevor to take up.
I could call Mr. Morris a hypocrit all day - we all could - but - I’m not going to. That’s just negative. We all know that what happened is negative. And you know, in the end, I feel its the sport of horses that did this to the horse, and Mr. Morris was the object that the industry used to have this happen. The sport says, Jump higher! Ride faster! Be stronger! Be better! oh well. you win some, you loose some… I gotta go.

[gomo]

I did see a horse in WPB 1998 (actually a student of GM)…anyway, the horse was schooling for a class and it crashed through the jump and in the process of falling, it stabbed itself in the chest with the caulks. Now, it was bleeding a lot, each time it’s heart would beat, blood would shoot out of its chest. Anyway, happy to say, the horse made a full recovery and was off for at least six months. The girl was okay too. I am not sure it was ever in real danger of dying but it looked so awful because of all of the blood. Anyway, my point I guess is that yes, a horse could injure itself with its caulks but I don’t know if I would go as far as killing itself. that would have to be a rather large stud and i can’t imagine it would be necessary in WPB right now. I am not sure if this happened in a grass field or one of the sand ones, in either case, I doubt they were using the same studs seen at the Masters during a terrential downpour. Just a thought…

[Anne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KitBC:
It appears that we should no longer make fun of them, and perhaps we should start admiring the Arabian freestyle shows – where the natural beauty of the horse is truly at heart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kit, while I agree with your points, I want to point out that there are bad apples in every barrel. A prime example if the very prominent Arabian halter trainer who had one of his colt’s necks (in the throatlatch area) surgically altered so that he better fit the ideal that the halter judges were looking for. No discipline is without abuse.

[barngirl]

Whether it was GM Joe Trainer… it is appalling… and I can only hope that something good comes out of this horses death. If only to turn he hj show world on it you knw what and get some change.
The sad part is that even though we backyard riders know better and wouldn’t use such techniques… in a way we are all responisble. untill we stop using theses trainers, or going to the shows, or buying their endorsed products we are all contributing in some way. Often times whether we know it or not. And we always say that we are the back bone of the industry, and we are… without us their would be no them. Maybe its time we started laying by our own rules. I often hear how many riders are steering away form the rated shows… and doing the local barn thing. Maybe we need an association. During the US civil war states left the union because they didn’t like the rules of the NOrth. Maybe we don’t need the AHSA. They are not very responsive and it seems to be there are too many good old boys to get any real changes done. It would be alot of work, but maybe it would be better. They say if you want to let people hear you talk with your pocket book. HJ showing has become a big business…an industry in fact. I am more than willing to take my business elsewhere.
I have often been amazed at how people idolize GM… yes he is just a human… but he has taken his God title ad run with it. For everyone who thinks GM is this HJ pioneer please read your horsemanship history books. You will quickly realize GM is not a pioneer, but good salesman… His ideas are never new or ground breaking. He borrows from the French styles, the italians… heck anyone but himself. And from what I have heard he will say one thing and do another. Whatever works for that day or that month or whatever seems to be in. I remember seeing a full cover display for I believe Horse and Rider… it was about the inside article on GM’s new riding philisophy. Basically it said quit posing and ride. MOve with your horse… use your leg, you know the basics… common sense. Yet the reason it was big new was because GM was saying it. It also meant GM was going to get a bigger pay check down the rode… think of all the pretty and usually unaffective riders he wouldnow have to retrain to ride with their horses… be forward and fluid… something most jumper riders learned long ago… and usually was why they failed so miserably in the hunter ring.
Yes we have made GM a god, but he has run with it. I for one will never jump on his bandwagon. He has been a great figure in our sport… gotten it much recognition, but he is not the end all be all. And if the stories are true and all the fact are corect… it really was only a matter of time before someone at the top got caught. But is it realy getting caught if you are not really doing anything illegal by the rule books.
LAstly … for the poster who said there is nothing more noble than a horse dying doing what it was asked to do. Yeah maybe if you were fleeing from ravenous leapards or cannibals. But please spare me the dramatics. There is nothing noble about dying on your horse… and their is nothing at all noble about your horse dying doing something it would never have dreamed of doing on its own. As riders we are responsible for our horses well being… we should never place them knowingly in harms wat nor ask them to prove their worthiness in our lives by doing something unsafe. i am not sure that I am more sickened by what happened to that horse, or by reading that is is noble for a horse to die doing what is asked of it.
Riding horses simply riding horses… is considered by insurance companies to be one of the most dangerous leisure activities. yet we can do things to make it safer for them and us. And whether George did it or someone else did it… it should never have happened. For everyone who talks about paralized friends and impaled horses on wooden rails… these truely are freak accidencts. this was not… I can not believe that a flung wooden rail would have impaled a horse through the heart. Severe bruising… cracked or broked something but not impaled. A good wooden pole shoul dbe heavy enough to fall to the ground and not get flung … it does happen, but it is rare.
Also I have seen horses swim through triple combinations sending rails flying, tangled up in their legs… and go on to finish a course. could it be that horses that are poled respond differently when they encounter a similar situation? Might they panic more and not think about simply going forward. Not that I am saying this is what happened… but I would think a horse who associates pain with rails will panic and receive more injures from rails caught up in its legs.
Lastly… as I know I am rambling on… Portia your a lawyer… maybe its time to require riders, trainers and owners to sign an oath. I wonder how many people would be willing to actually sign something that said they would not abuse thier horses… using tack poles, metal pipes, severely restricting martingales… etc… We all know we aren’t suppose to… but no one really holds any one accountable. I realize it would be unenforcable, but I think half of it would be the principle of it. Sort of stand up and be counted sort of thing.

[Doubleeez]

Goodmudder, current AHSA schooling rules require grand prix horses to be on the grounds 24 hours before the start of the class. It is then, and only then, that the AHSA has jurisdiction over the horse’s schooling which is overseen by the Steward and the Supervisor of Schooling. The complete time the horse is on the grounds it is subject to AHSA schooling rules. Off the grounds anything goes. So I think we have here a “grounds” question. Is a private ring leased from a show facility a part of the showgrounds or not? Guess we need a lawyer for this one!

[deerie]

I have been told of a terrible incident that took place yesterday in Palm Beach. Those of you who have contacts down there may want to look into this as well.

A very (very very very) well-known trainer was schooling an Amateur student, and had the student’s horse jump a jump which included a metal pipe as one element. Tragically, in some way the pipe was bumped and dislodged … and the horse came down on it and was impaled. I am told that the horse bled to death on the scene.

I don’t know if the trainer was up, or the owner was up. I do not know if this took place on the showgrounds or on a private jumping field near or adjacent to the showgrounds.

This I DO know… I don’t really care exactly where it happened! I am nauseated to think that any trainer would “do this” to an animal. By “do this” I mean to take such a chance of injuring or killing an animal by using a metal pipe as any element of a jump. And what of the danger to the rider? And also, I am nauseated to think that any owner would allow or take part in such a foolish exercise.

Another thing I DO know … there will a major attempt to keep this as quiet as possible. Well, fat chance! And since it cannot be kept quiet (get real!), some folks will be putting their heads together to put the best possible “spin” on this as is possible under the (quite public) circumstances.

Everyone knows that to school over a metal pipe is about the most dangerous thing one can do, because there is ALWAYS the chance that such a terrible result can occur! To me it is unthinkable that anyone can call himself/herself a horseman and take this sort of risk…

Shame on this trainer! And shame on the horse owner. Everyone knows that “accidents happen…”, but this was entirely preventable. It need not have happened! I am sick at the thought of the agony this horse must have gone through.

[This message has been edited by deerie (edited 01-22-2000).]

[Becca]

As Erin, and numerous others have said, we don’;t know enough yet. But even moreso, NO ONE knows the real story behind the rider. I can very clearly visualize the pain, and distraught this person may or may not be suffering.

We ALL know Mr. Morris is a very prominant, and strong figure. It is damned hard to look him in the eye and say I’m not jumping that. I would have done it, but thats due to Morals, and an understanding, and horsemanship I have had since the day I was born, or have been poured into me since then. Many riders have been riding only a few years- to them their trainers word is the law. Even moreso when it is someone like george morris. Some of us are blessed wih the ability to speak for ourselves, and more importantly, think for ourselves. But i udnerstand the plight. I would have handled myself differently- VERY differently. And I know many of you would have. But we can’t pout ourself in the riders position. NO ONE knows what happened, or what they went through except that one person. I know what i would have liked, expected, and needed to do. But what would i have done? thats indeterminable. No one knows. This was a trauma, still is. For everyone, ESPECIALLY the rider. Depsite thier actions, we can’t go attacking them. I KNOW what its like to a degree, nothing I have ever experienced is harder than losing a horse i love more than life itself. So please, I Beg of you to not mnake rash judgements, to Mr. Morris, but even moreso to the rider involved. Try and imagine it.

[Jumphigh83]

What about the clause in the rule book that goes something like “predjudicial to the best interest of the AHSA…” It doesn’t say anything about on the grounds or off…just any action that would not be in the best interest of the industry…Something to think about…You really need an attorney to read that rule book anyway. There are loopholes that you could throw a COW through!

[deerie]

George Morris.

[J_Turner]

Steinkraus approves of metal poles??? Is this in one of his books? In what context?

[Pat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gry2Yng:
Pat,
I don’t have any problems with riders who jump 2’6" and only ride a few time a week. My point was that to say “even I know better” misses the heart of what the trainer in this incident may have done. The metal pole was not used due to lack of knowledge or an understanding of the risks. It was not used (if this story is in fact true) by an amateur who was not experienced in this technique. To say “even I know better” implies that the accident was a result of ignorance. My point was that this did not happen because someone was thoughtless or was trying a trick from a book.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gray, I’m repling again because I feel I didn’t make myself completely clear in my last post. I can be as clear as mud sometimes.

Perhaps, yes the use of the pole was not from ignorance, but ARROGANCE instead. The Arrogence to think because I am who I am and the laws of nature do not apply to me.

There are reasons that certain practices are not allowed by AHSA and FEI rules. These practices have been deemed by intelligent, caring individuals who clearly see that they are not in the horses best interests.

I’m against poling, and I’ve said why. I’m not some tree hugging wet blanket who’s worried the horsie is getting hurt. If a horse and rider are matched well, properly schooled and neither is overfaced or over worked, then you don’t need to get out the bamboo or the pole.

Isn’t that why these students of his pay him ungodly sums of money to train them and buy them horses? Is the fact he feels the need to use the pole evidence that he’s not doing his job in the first place? (or bamboo)

I’m very disappointed in Steinkraus as well for advocating the metal pole in print much less in practice. I’m a de Nemethy disciple myself, and I don’t recall any where in his book the deNemethy Method where he dicusses poling at all.

I have a first edition copy of Hunter Seat Equitation on the shelf. When I teach, I have that “text book” model in my mind. Still, I’m not going to bow down and call this event an unfortunate accident just because I think he has the right idea on how we should sit on a horse.

I won’t be surprised one minute if this continues to blow over unpunished. Hey, we couldn’t find the guts as a country to set down our President, why expect more here?