It is totally impossible for most people who post on this board to even conceive of what is going on in a place like Palm Beach, unless they have been there. The posters on this board are horse lovers,(thankfully), and are trying desperately to pretend that most of the people in Palm Beach are the same. People, get a clue! You are comparing apples with oranges. Sadly, Palm Beach is big business and nothing else. You are naive to think that the average person down there thinks the same way about horses that you do. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are changing hands down there every day. The horses are a commodity, and nothing else. It’s pleasantly idealistic to like to think that everyone feels the same way about their horses as you do, but it’s not realistic. There is way to much money and greed involved. How many times has George himself been quoted as saying, “Horses are like street cars, there’s always another on coming around the corner.” I hate to be the voice of reality, but that is the overwhelming attitude down there. Of course I know there are plenty of exceptions, I’ve worked for great people who truly loved their horses, but they are in the minority…
While I do agree that we should make all efforts to confirm this incident, I still don’t understand why people think it was an accident. As I said before, and accident is an event that is UNFORSEEABLE. ANYONE at the top levels of this sport has seen more than one pole fly in front of a horse went hit hard. Why then wouldn’t it be OBVIOUS that thin metal pole can become a virtual missle if hit this way.
Gray, I don’t care for you attitude that those who only ride once a week and never jump above 2’6" are too naive to offer opinions. I’m a pro, and I know better too!!! I can’t cpmrehend the idea that because it was GM, that we should’nt judge him. Just because he’s been getting away with it until now doesn’t make it right.
I don’t like poling because it does not address the 2 key issues of why a horse might need “sharpening up.” A tired/bored horse or an overfaced/untalented or POORLY RIDDEN one won’t jump higher for long just because you gave it a wack. I’ve been in these big barns folks, and I’ve seen the tack rails and the “trick” jump (pulley jump) and packed the bamboo into the semi myself. And all those horses I’ve seen get poled didn’t last long. They are the washouts you never see again. Proof is in the pudding as they say.
At this “top level” riders and trainers alike push, push, push until these poor obediant creatures need the “tune-up.” And because most of them are on full service, everyone thinks they are pampered. Never mind the stacked NSAIDs and standing wraps after every little jump session. Or needing to stand in ice between the first round and the jump off. Or needing special foam support wraps just to take a lesson at home. I could go on, but I will not bore you.
I too can’t understand the mentality of a rider or a trainer who would push on as if nothing happened. Would it have hurt to atleast move to another ring, or finish on the flat, or just end the lesson early?
I’m not sure if the outrage expressed would not be equal if it had happened to another trainer. I’d like to think we would all be equally horrified.
QUOTE
You point is the same as mine, the trainer knew exactly what he
was doing, and new the dangers. To say someone “should know
better” implies that they are ignorant or were momentarily stupid.
For example, an experienced rider who reads a book about
schooling with a metal pole and goes out in their backyard and
tries it - should know better. I don’t think ignorance or momentary
stupidity are the case here, again assuming this is true. To say
“should have know better” implies a certain innocence that I don’t
think applies. It was a deliberate decision. I am with you.
Gry
ENDQUOTE
I’ve no idea how to deal with quoted material on here, sorry…
I guess I’m not terribly terrific at expressing myself, but that’s basically what I meant. 
Innocent is when the knowledge necessary isn’t there… when I said “even us 2’6 1x/weekers know better” I pretty much meant that if I know better when I have limited riding experience, then someone with that high of a reputation can’t NOT know better, and therefore it should never have happened. And then it does happen and people start to wonder what kind of people they’re looking up to, be it GM or anybody else, well-known or not.
But I would consider it stupidity, perhaps not momentary, but then if it was the first time he did it (somehow I doubt that?) then it would have been momentary. Either way it was stupid, and I’d personally say ignorant because he was ignoring blatant dangers that he knew were there, even if he didn’t imagine them to be so severe.
I guess I caused a bit of a mess there with that statement but I do believe that whatever the reasons he had for having that pole up, it still had no business being there and the accident was preventable… Especially with him being a figure of importance in the horse industry.
IMO the saddest part is that what he (and other prominent figures) preaches is what all those new riders, especially the young and impressionable ones, will look up to and take after. Afterall “If George (or insert other esteemed person here) does it, it must be right” And the cycle repeats itself, the power and freedom the horse shows us slowly disappears, getting more horrific every time…
Why does something like this that is so horrific not surprise me? GM is WAY overrated anyhow. Equitation purveyor, horseman? PLEASE. This is truly the epitomy of any horseman I have ever heard of. No horse deserves that, especially from such a “world renowned” figure. Time to hang up the rowled spurs GM. Or were those the electric spurs?
WHOA!!! Everyone, calm down. I agree with Erin. We don’t know the facts yet and some people here are already condemning GM and cursing him left and right. Don’t jump the gun. You guys are thinking with your emotions and not your heads. Yes, it is a tragic accident. But don’t be so quick to judge when we don’t even know every aspect of the story. I’m preserving my judgement until I know FOR SURE, without a doubt, the EXACT events. What some of you guys have said concerning the rider, GM, and others is just past mean. Some of it is just downright rude.
I think I’m going to stick to observing this forum from now on, I have no desire to continue posting after what some of you guys have shown me. You really should be ashamed.
Goodbye, all. 
Hmmmm, I wonder sometimes about the human thought process ? As new member… and unable to fathom where these aligations get their roots… ?
And,
if I may be so bold, as to recommend to those of you which are in dire need to vent negative remarks regarding this accident…
That,
unless or until you ride as an active &/or have experience in the Hunter/Jumper world please withhold ignorant comments and pleadings of equine abuse… If you still feel the need to vocalize to attain your release, then look in your neighbors back yard, or perhaps your local horse community for the more frequent but infamous abusers,this is where equines are screaming for help…
In my experiences with George Morris, he would not intentionally jeapordize a rider or kill a horse out of negligence.
At a past AHSA “A” show I have seen a horse killed in the warm up area with a wooden rail…& round or octagon would not have saved anything… Offset or not wouldn’t have helped…the pole broke… and impaled the horse… period… an accident. Please be carefull of jumping in without being responsible of one anothers feelings therefore unable to jump out.
Car racing… why do they use cement sidings on curves ? To kill the drivers… ? Gosh and to think George Morris may read these someday ?
Finally… Each and everytime I’ve ridden with George Morris he’s challenged my training ability which encouraged myself esteem. Then proceeds with the sharpening up of my riding sensabilities in which encouraged my talent for starting jumpers & hunters and has always left me feeling excited so that I cannot wait to get on the next green horse. Trainers like myself need coaches like George Morris, Victor Hugo Vidal, Hap Hansen, & Nelson Pesoa. They keep us sharp… like a breath of fresh air that lasts and lasts… Compassion…
CuppieChing@Hotmail.com
Shame on George Morris. He should resign from his positions. We live in a country
too great to tolerate this kind of incident from one of it’s leaders. Mr. Morris should have had enough experience not to have such a horrible, tragic accident as this occur. His expertease alone should have kept this from happening.
If this terrible accident happened on a part of the showgrounds, was the AHSA Steward notified? Has a charge been filed against Mr. Morris for his actions. The AHSA has a mechanism that can be put in place once the preliminary steps are taken. This belongs “downtown” with the Hearing Committee as to what should be done for his actions. We can all come up with “punishments” but let’s let cooler heads prevail. The important thing is to follow the AHSA rules and notify the Steward or if you are there, file a protest yourself.
According to officials at Littlewood, the private/leased show rings adjacent to the show grounds are NOT part of the LITTLEWOOD show grounds. To my knowledge, if this had happened during a WEF show there MAY have been a different scenario regarding AHSA jurisdiction. But since it was during a Littlewood show there’s a distinct difference. None of those in question were entered at the Littlewood show. Littlewood is under different management than WEF shows and from what I understand are complete and separate entities.
I’m sure there are more details to come. But that’s the understanding I have at this point.
Tricia
That is just terrible!!! I hope we can find out more about this situation.
I’ve always, always been taught that metal poles are extremely dangerous. That said, this is a question for those far more knowledgeable than me about training practices, and I’ll try to ask it objectively.
Why use a metal pole in a clinic with many horses and riders with whom, presumably, the clinician is not familiar, and why use it for every horse? If it is meant to be a means of making a horse more careful, why use it in a situation where you don’t know whether the horses you are dealing with are careful or not? I don’t see the purpose of using it in a clinic situation.
[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 01-23-2000).]
Pat what I was told, was that it is a rented ring/schooling area, that is adjacent to the show grounds. WPB has areas that are owned privately. Plots of land, 3-5 acres.They are technically not the show grounds, but literally within walking distance, 100’s of feet. You can see and hear the show, but be off the grounds, technically.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>#4 Before the Atlanta Oympics, one team got in BIG trouble because their jumps were incorrect schooling jumps. The FEI made sure that these team members were punished.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
FEI rules are different.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>#7 The lesson continued with a dead horse in the ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I highly, highly doubt that this is the case. Sounds like another rumor to me.
Could not agree more…
My concern would be with the continuation of lessons. Accidents do happen, but we learn from them, and are saddened by them. I know that if a horse or rider was seriously injured or killed at my show, I would send everyone home. Maybe cancel the rest for the year. But has anyone seen the jump in question? Please describe it. Metal is used in construction of a lot of horse equipment. Many Dressage arenas have metal pipes or wooden or plastic stakes. Wood will NOT break. Many gates have uprite supports. A friend of mine had a horse that fell on a surveyors stake on the trail. That stake missed his heart by less than an inch, and it did not break. A 1" by 1" stake. Another friend was on a trail, the horse spooked into a rotted overturned tree root. That wood didn’t break either, and left a huge hole in the horses chest. I heard of a person that had a post in between stall walls sticking up higher than the wall. They came out one morning to find their horse impaled on it. These are nightmares, and horrible accidents that need to be learned from with safer jump construction, but I need more information before attacking anyone.
CM and Sunny, this phenomenon was discussed on the TV thread several months ago…and elsewhere…
OK, I’m new to this board and I’m not a very experienced rider and I don’t know a whole lot about training, George Morris or this case.
What I do know is that we don’t have a lot of facts and until we do we all need to stop where we are, calm down, take a step back and wait until we have more facts. From what I have seen so far there are a lot of different ways to react to this situation and not all of them are based on cold hard fact.
I can imagine that there are at least a dozen first hand accounts of these events, from Morris himself, to those taking part in the clinic to people who were just watching along the sidelines. And from what I have seen in life there will probably be as many variations in the accounts as there are people who saw what happened. They may vary by a little or a lot, but we all need to wait until we know for sure what happened.
I picture the horse in my mind and it makes me sick…is it illegal to school with a metal pipe? If so, then I hope the owners have enough sense (cents) to hire the very best lawyer and bleed George to death!!
Well, i think part of the issue of where it happened, and when, is what exact legal right do any of the organizations have to impose sanctions or penalties on a person who, in this country, is involved in the negligent death of a horse OUTSIDE of a horse show, and I think the answer is that legally, none of our horse show organizations have much legal right to sanction someone for something done outside of a horse show.
Now, I think that the AHSA ran into trouble trying to sanction Lindemann because he hadn’t actually been convicted of anything at that point in time - this is how dicey the law is - I think they could legally have barred him from, for example, competing at the Olympics and maybe a lot of other things had he been convicted at that point - but I’m not sure the issues were ever all that clear or easy to sort out legally.
Lindemann threatened to sue the AHSA and destroy it financially if they barred him - and he might have been able to, too, actually, given a little different timing to things.
Here’s the problem. Our organizations are EXTREMELY limited in what they are legally allowed to do. These rights are limited by laws, and have at least something to do with the organizations’ charters and how they are worded.
NOW - if every single member of AHSA/USET and other organizations wrote in and said they wanted George Morris barred from coaching or officiating, judging, etc., the organizations STILL couldn’t do much, legally, the way I understand it.
HOWEVER - if people want to do something instead, people can not take his clinics, lessons, buy his horses, hire him to judge, subscribe to magazines he writes for (and tell the magazine editor why) and about 250 other things that would lessen his income, and, essentially turn him into a nothing.
BECAUSE in the end it’s you and me that pay his bills and allow him to continue as a presence in the horse world. NOT the organizations. The owner of this horse paid him to coach her, and he’s already known to be quite ruthless, and has been known to be for many many years - - what does that say about all of us - maybe it’s US that create this GODS, and maybe it’s us that have to destroy them.
As Erin said, we’ll try and get information to you as soon as possible. Unfortunately, Mother Nature is also playing a role in the situation today–it’s hard to say who made it or is going to make it into the office today due to the blizzard. So far I haven’t heard a word from the Virginia office!
Tricia
