WOW, I cant believe I am going to jump in headfirst and comment on this!! First of all, this behavior goes on everywhere, in every breed, in every discipline. In the breed shows (quarter, app, paint) we all cry it is the judges. Well to some extent it is. If judges start picking the lower headsets, the trainers are gonna get them lower so the judges pick them, no matter what means they need to resort to. If the judges pick them slower, the trainer are going to go to the extreme to get thier horses to perform the way the judges “who play god” want them to. I could go on and on about the seemingly cruel things that go on. The G.M. incident is just a very public example of people doing what this so called “guru” says because they will win the almighty ribbon, rather than saying, “wait a minute, this is MY animal and I will not tolerate anything that is extreme, illegal, or dangerous to thier well being”. Those are the people who truely care about thier animal. The ones that go along with such things are the owners who do not see an animal but rather and asset$$$$. So, yes, G.M. is at fault and did the wrong thing, especially with an am/own. but, people, take some of the blame yourselves, stand up for you and your animal. Don’t go to extremes, to get the quick fix or highest jump. Take time, make a partnership with your animal. Bring them along slow with confidence, take time to understand thier problems and work them out, not force them out. Know your animal, he may not be the one to take the 5 foot fence, his talent may lie somewhere else. I, for one, did take a stand and refused to turn my 16.2 stallion into what they wanted for thier showring, rather, I looked elsewhere to promote him and show him bringing out the best he had to offer, not the best they wanted to force him into. These animals trust us and obviously risk thier lives to please us. Remember this…these beautiful creatures are not ours, they belong to God and He has so generously entrusted them to us.
Alexandra, a metal pole is unforgiving. It hurts when a horse hits it, used as a tuning aid, most horses won’t touch the top rail. There is no reason, other than pain for an animal to be tuned in this way! Not only was the animal impaled, he also hurt from hitting the pole. All the more reason this is so horrible…
Yes. Around horses, accidents happen. But accidents are, at least 80% of the time, preventable. This one certainly was. A metal pole is just absurd. It could have hurt the ammy on board, which would have had lawsuits ALL over the place.
Jump cups on fences are certainly less harmful than a metal pole. A horse can break a leg on those. It’s evident the dangers - A HORSE DIED.
George Morris is the father of hunters. As the person who is responsible for a good portion of what goes on in the hunter ring today, he should know better. It’s common sense.
What he did sets a horrible examples for young riders. As someone who stresses safety along with everything else - the jump cup thing - he should know better than to use a metal pole.
As one of the most respected riders and trainers in the business, he should have set a better example.
This was a lack of common sense
We could all talk forever, but, at the least:
- We have a right to demand a full investigation, to get the facts out.
- We have a right to pressure the AHSA and the USET to investigate to the fullest, just as they would for my backyard, next-door trainer.
- We have a right to ask publications to treat this incident seriously, perhaps to encourage Mr. Morris to take a leave of absence until this incident is put to rest.
I wasn’t there, but have talked to enough people who were to know that something very bad happened. I don’t buy the “accident” theory, any more than I accept a drunk driver saying that “I didn’t mean to kill that family.” If Mr. Morris wants to regain any semblance of respectability, I would suggest he cooperate with any investigations, not hide behind lawyers, and get it over with. Chronicle and AHSA took pretty strong stands with the Wards. Let’s see if they have the cojones to do it again.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wufpack3:
I agree with everyone here that George Morris needs to be suspended, Sued and Worse, But everyone is also bashing the owner. If you all didn’t notice it said NOVICE on there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh? who said this rider was a novice? The rider was showing in Amateur Owner. Hardly a novice division. The courses and jumps in A/O are huge and technical, the most any ammy will see with out stepping out side of the amateur world.
Yes, I think she bears some guilt having attempted an atleast questionable fence. But she should never have been placed in the position in the first place!
i dont understand this!! why does it matter where it happened? why should it matter if it happened at a small local fairground or a big show? IT HAPPENED!! many considered this man a great hero, to me, that makes what he did 10 times as bad, he should have known better!! maybe he didnt plan on it to happen, but he knew what he was doing was wrong, illegal or not, he knew it would hurt the animal to hit it, but that didnt stop him. is this where are sport is headed…?
I am absolutely appalled and sickened after reading about this incident. It is nothing less than an abortion of the ethics, integrity and compassion that so many of us strive to bring to our sport. To create a situation in which something like this could happen in the first place is bad enough, to witness this occurrence and then continue schooling over the EXACT SAME FENCE is insane!! My god, what were these people thinking. Why not just pass out guns and play a quick game of Russian Roulette prior to the start of the clinic. I don’t care who was holding the clinic, I would walk out and risk anyone and everyone’s wrath before putting my horse or myself in a situation that so obviously had such a potential for disaster.
Ok all you guys are bashing GM but were any of you there when it happened? I don’t agree with horses jumping metal poles but you guys are so quick to bash him. I think it is really rude and immature. Let’s wait til we get the real facts from the rider and GM. But for now let’s just leave George alone. That’s all…
Okay, folks, here’s what I’m going to do… I am going to close the thread, but mostly because of logistical reasons. It’s reeeeally long, every detail has been hashed out multiple times, everyone has had a chance to vent, and I think it’s time to move on. I’d rather see more focused discussions start under different headings. Also, I’d rather not have newbies come in and try to wade through this mess and miss some of the important details.
Let me emphasize that discussion of this topic is more than welcome to continue. CarrieK hit the nail on the head… I do have faith that you all can continue this discussion in a thoughtful manner, and I am very pleased to see that that’s been more or less the case over the last 36 hours. I think it’ll be easier to continue in that manner if we leave some of the (ahem) more volatile opinions here behind and start other threads. I’ve also had a number of emails requesting that this thread be closed, so I’m trying to do what’s best for everyone.
Now, I am still very serious about keeping the name-calling and inflammatory comments off the board. I will delete posts that I feel are inappropriate and will ask the authors to restate their opinions in a less volatile manner. Remember, the rules are to be nice and be respectful.
So please feel free to start other subjects dealing with the specifics of the issue, and we’ll go from there. Any questions or comments, email me at erin@chronofhorse.com.
I first lost respect for Mr. Morris a few years back when he criticized a woman’s weight (which was not too heavy by anyone’s standards)in his “jumping clinic” column in Practical Horseman. I was enraged by his careless comments, and after several angry readers wrote scathing replies to the magazine, I thought the man might be humbled. No such luck. His rebuttal was arrogant and further emphasized the need to be rail-thin in a sport where eating disorders are disturbingly common.
When i read this bulletin board, I almost cried. The pain the horse experienced and the emotional agony his rider went through are unimaginable. And to think that the arrogant trainer – the biggest name in the field – was more concerned with maintaining his (tarnished) image than with consoling the owner/rider and REMOVING THE METAL POLE! I am beyond appalled that a supposedly intelligent person would even use such a pole in a clinic! Would someone please grab that pole and beat GM with it??
Futhermore, the backlash from this incident will affect us all. The AHSA and USET will certainly move to regulate schooling to prevent another tragedy, but what kind of regulations will be placed upon us? Will there come a day when a person cannot even jump or longe a horse in the schooling ring? If stupidity like Mr. Morris’s continues, then I think that such a rule would be a possibility.
I think it’s about time GM retired.
Portia says she was unable to find anything in the rulebook about offsets (which are not the same thing as poling, by the way). I don’t have a rulebook close to hand, but there used to be something specific about this. As I recall, and I may be remembering incorrectly, it said that the offset must be a bamboo pole, no more than 2 inches in diameter, and it may be taped.
I agree with Lucian. To wipe the pole off and continue with the lesson like nothing ever happened? Has he no compassion? Think about the poor Adult that knows she killed her horse doing what her trainer told her to do. Maybe she didn’t like the idea of jumping the pipe, but she probably trusted the request of her trainer (we are talking about the living legend here) and did it anyway. Now she has to live with this for the rest of her life.
brilyntrip - please note that all reports - from several different sources - indicate that Mr Morris CONTINUED TO USE THE METAL POLE!!! So you may wish to believe that it will be a long time before anyone uses anything other than a standard wooden pole, but GM does not appear to have hesitated a moment.
Regarding people who are seriously injured, or even killed jumping ‘normal’ fences - yes these things happen. Usually ther is some sort of contributing cause. In Christopher Reeves case, he had very poor jumping form. Videos of him riding showed him jumping with his hands near the horse’s withers, not out in front of his shoulders. When he fell from his horse, his hands stayed trapped back underneath him, and therefore he was unable to deflect his impact on the ground. This led to his paralysis. Other cases I am not personally acquainted with, and so I cannot comment. However, we must look at the bits and pieces of information available in this GM case. #1 the pole was an uncapped metal pipe. #2 All the participants in the clinic were told to jump this fence, so using a metal pole is basically considered a normal schooling technique. #3 the horse hit the fence hard enough to send the rail way out in front of him, he didn’t just rap it. #4 the lessons continued that day, and the next. #5 the pole was kept in use. These facts lead me to the following conclusions: 1) Mr Morris feels that All Horses need the threat of hitting a pole that causes pain to make them try harder and jump cleaner. 2)The horse that died was sufficiently overfaced with the height of the jump that he hit it hard! 3) If care had been taken to at LEAST cap the end of the pole, it would not have had the sharp cutting edge that the exposed end of a pipe offers. The horse would have been injured, but might have survived. 4) Mr Morris did not experience any serious remorse, or else his ego or fear of admitting a mistake prevented him from removing the pole from use.
To me the biggest transgression is the concept that every horse in the clinic needed to be made fearful of hitting the pole. If that were not the intention, then a standard pole would have been sufficient. I cannot open my heart and sympathize with anyone who has this attitude about horses. Again, it doesn’t matter whether the action was legal, or whether it is commonly done. The problem is it is immoral with regard to our relationship with our horses. The best Trainers in the US need to STOP preaching ways to force horses to give a little more! Riders need to learn what is reasonable to expect from their horse on any given day, and accept that limitation! Classic horsemanship should be based on techniques that ALLOW the horse to OFFER HIS BEST. Trainers who do not know how to do that, need to go back to square one and reassess their relaionship with horses. Poets do not refer to the horse as Noble without good reason. A horse will offer his strength and submit willingly to a kind and fair master. He will try harder than anyone should ever have the right to demand. he will give his best if we just get out of his way, and allow it. It doesn’t come from sharper bits, longer spurs, tack poles or martingales. It comes from guidance, partnership and patience. And if I ever have a client who doesn’t want me to train their horse that way, well, they can move on down the road. I would prefer to protect the horse, but I can’t do that if I submit to quick fixes and force. To rationalize that I might do it a little kinder than the next guy is only self deception. Training a horse with gimmicks designed to extract more from the horse than he can willingly and calmly offer is just wrong, and there are no degrees of wrong. So I won’t do it. Slow and correct, or not at all. Mr Morris’ actions indicate that he is on the other side of the fence. He will do whatever it takes to get the best out of the horse, despite the risks. Again, it doesn’t matter if what he did was Legal (I am sure it was, he knows the rules as well as anyone) it was and is immoral and dangerous, especially in the manner in which it was done. m
This is just sad that someone of such stature in the horse world would make such a stupid move in the first place. And then to just go on as if nothing had happened, it’s reprehensible! 
Are horses so easy to come by for him that he can just shrug off this death? 
Somewhere tonight I hope someone is crying for that horse because I know I will.
I just read through all of the posts, and this whole thing just gives me the shivers! I just want to drive out to the barn and hug my horse!
Unfortunately, I have seen and been made to do worse (w/old trainer). The worst thing is that if in that clinic myself, I would have been sitting there thinking, “I do not want to jump over that pole… I want out.” But because you are in a GM clinic, it would be perposterous to do so… so you follow everyone else, and jump the pole. I am sure that everyone in the clinic thought, “this is George Morris, he knows what he is doing.”
I am going to try to reach my trainer tonight and get the facts- I know she was there with one of our students. When I first saw this story, I could not stop thinking it was my friend’s horse… anyone know who the rider was?
How utterly disgusting that he continued the clinic and continued using the pole. This whole “the show must go on” thing is way out of hand. My current trainer is a devout advocate of GM, and sometimes angers her riders (me included) with this attitude… “just have to move on and keep riding.” I wonder if this shook her up- I’ll post any details I hear from her.
My only “defense” of the man comes from personal experience- I rode in a clinic with him last May (in KY)- we never did anything dangerous or used anything weird or harmful, and I rode in the 4’ and up group.
but… the fact that the A/O rider came back the next day? Is she on crack?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
Steinkraus approves of metal poles??? Is this in one of his books? In what context?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I too wonder the same. I grew up a pony clubber, as well as showing hunter jumpers. true horsemanship has been beaten through my head my entire life.
And Jumping unsafe jumps is one of the biggest errors you can make. I’m trying very hard to with hold my judgement of anyone involved until I hear THE facts. But I am disheartened by the incident, and know I wouldn’t be able o do anything shoudlt hat have happened to me. I have withdrawn into myself more than ocne at the death of my horses, and i had nothing to do with those dewaths. I can only imagine. I do truely hope the rumors of her getting back on on another horse is false. However, if this is, its a terrible, TERRIBLE thing we are doing to this person, should that be untrue. Some respect needs to be shown as well.
I am sadden by this incident. Whether or not you like/liked GM he was well respected and has done alot for the sport. But this is unforgivable and truly tragic. This isn’t so much an accident as pure and utter STUPIDITY. I hope to soon learn the facts so we can fairly judge and more fully comprehend what happened.
So sad to have heard this news. I miss the horse show friends, but I sure don’t miss the “stuff” that interferes with the love of the sport. good luck to all in resolving this matter. Nothing however can replace the loss of a horse.
well, I was at palm beach when this happened…and i heard about it thru another prominent trainer who i work with and i will not be mentioning names…but anyway I think that it is funny that George, the scribe of all those articles in the Chronicle preaching horsemanship…and the lack of it in todays world has just gotten himself in a lot of trouble. By trying to “tune” a horse by using steel poles, he made a terrible mistake. A true horseman would have made the horse just get deep several times. It is unfortunate that this had to happen…and I thin that it ois true that everyone must be shot down every once in a while…and i believe this has just happened…and he better have some good insurance.
Thank you Erin for bringing some reality back into this discussion. I dont post on this board often–I just listen (read)! BUT…I cant stand this any longer. Is everyone in the world truly like most of the posters on this board—so quick to condemn and so very sanctimonius!!! Yes this was a tragic, tragic ACCIDENT and my heart goes out to the horse, his owner and to George and all who whitnessed this tragedy. And IMO if George committed an error in judgement it was to continue using the metal pole after the incident occured (and the facts are not yet out that he did this is just hearsay).
That said, I would like to address the posters who have been so quick to condemn George. Unlike many of them, I have personally attended and observed several of George’s clinics over the past 20 plus years and have only a few months ago sent my horse (without me) to participate in his young rider’s clinic. I did this without reservation because I know him to be a trainer with the highest standards and the utmost concern for horses. He is a role model for our industry. Yes, he creates some controversy with his very direct style of communication (ie I did not love his comments about overweight women and riding a few years back!) But even that, I suspect, he does for a purpose. Sometimes, if one wants to influence something, one needs to exagerate one’s comments to make the point(I may do that to some extent in this post). He is certainly one of the few in the hunter jumper ranks to hold firm to STANDARDS such as proper dress, horse turnout and training, ring ettiquette, the need for flatwork and gymnastics in training, and proper equitation even in the jumper ring. I think it is fair to say that he has endured quite a bit of criticism and even ridicule for his standard bearing in those areas which no one else had the guts to take on.
Now as far as the metal pole is concerned… How could he have known it would injure the horse? If people want to be naive to think that non standard poles are not standard in scooling hunters and jumpers at home then so be it, but from many years of personal observation in this world I can assure they are considered a rather benign way to get a rub and therby cause the horse to be a little tighter with its front end. Now I am sure that this last comment will cause an onslaught of indignant protests from some who post here…but I’m not through yet…!!!
Lets be real here… Do I think its fun for the horse to hit its leg on the metal pole??? NO, I DO NOT!!! Is it fun for the horse to hit its leg on a wooden pole? Is it fun for the horse to work on hard footing? Is it fun for the horse to be ridden? How do we know? Can we ask him? Does he like to jump? Does he like to get in the trailer? Does he like a bath? And on and on… The answers are probably NO to all these questions. I think we can all agree that most horses would probably like most to be out in some cool green pasture grazing with their buddies with their genitles intact. But here we humans come and being the gentle souls that they are, oour horses submit to just about whatever degree of slavery we choose to impose on them.
Now please get this next part. Am I NOT saying it’s ok to abuse horses. HELL NO. I love all horses, and especially my horses. Most everyone who knows me says they want to come back as my horses in their next life so dont go bashing me on that point. What I am trying so say clearly is that anytime we take the animal out of its natural environment, confine it, put a saddle on it, make it to what we want, not what it wants, that this is usurping its freedom and is a kind of abuse. IT’S ALL A MATTER OF DEGREE!!! To PETA I’m sure any kind of showing is viewed as abuse but most of us wouldn’t think so. Secondly, sometimes ignorance or just plain making a mistake results in abuse of the horse. How many of you who are bashing George have barbed wire fences?—we all know what kind of terrible injuries they can inflict on a horse but many horses are kept inside them. Should we prostilitize and bash them on this board. Is there any one of us who hasn’t done something stupid with a horse that resulted in an injury or a near miss—I’d like to meet them! To my knowlege there are many examples of horse and rider injuries related to both wooden and PVC poles and standards (my guess is, way more than with any metal pole, since the metal is unlikely to shatter, and heaver so it should theoretically fall out of the way quicker)… so… should we ban jumping altogether? I’m sure there are some who think so.
What do I think? I think interaction with horses (and people) calls for common sense and TOLERANCE and kindness. Want to go to one extreem–turn your horse out in some lovely open nature preserve. Want to be in the middle. There’s a lot of gray there… feed him enough, love him, ride him,
train him kindly, show him???
As to what is an abusive training technique…I think there’s an awful lot of gray there. An old, long dead, much beloved trainer of mine used to say, “even a snaffle bit’s a razor in a monkey’s hand!” I do think the intent and the aptitude and experience of the trainer and rider have more to do with the effect of whatever method is used however, much more than the method itself. This does not mean that I condone electric spurs, wires, endless lunging which I abhore, or anything which causes the animale undue pain. But,in the matter of George I do not think that he had the slightest notion he would cause this animal’s death. I hope he and all profesionals will rethink all their training methods. And I hope all riders and owners will be quicker to question their training methods and those of their trainers and be more ready to object when those methold cross the line of safety to horse or rider.
But(and this is my last point) I do think that all horse captivity and riding and training is intrusive to the horse’s freedom, we have all abused our horses at some time whether intentionally or accidentally–it’s just a matter of degree, and we are HYPOCRITES if we pronounce judgement on a good horsman, until we take the log(or pole as the case may be) out of our own eyes!!! We might all benefit from this terrible incident by taking stock of our own horse care and training programs, reevaluating them for safety and comfort of the horse instead of judging, denegrating, and condemning this man without benefit of knowleged of all the facts or his true intent. Thanks
