As I said on another post I am new in the horse show world, so please excuse my lack of knowledge.From reading this post I have learned about the accident with Mr. Morris. How sad for the horse and rider involved.I am of the thought that if I am not there to see it for myself I can’t comment on it!I think that if it was a case of abuse than Mr. Morris will be sanctioned no matter if he were on the showgrounds or not. If it is not the way the story is told here then all on these boards should take a step back and make sure that next time they know the facts first.
Funny Abby I have NEVER HEARD George use that quote. And I will not stoop to your level and try to make horse people fight amonst ourselves. Just because You don’t go to Wellington doesn’t give you the right to tell us whether or not WE love and take care of our horses.
[This message has been edited by MB Stark (edited 01-23-2000).]
I think it’s horrible and just the tip of the iceberg. The “sport” of horse showing has become absurd, both in the methods used to win, the attitudes of many of the competitors, trainers, parents etc… GM is an icon, one I have looked up to since I was a kid in the 70s. I have read Hunter Seat Equitation so many times the pages are falling out. To me, his riding style was the pinnacle to which I aspired.
What happened to the George Morris who said
“If riding were all horse shows, bright lights, and blue ribbons I’d have quit long ago…she doesn’t need an audience, her satisfaction will come from improving herself and her horse.” Accompanied by photo of rider schooling her horse in a corner of a field.
I bet the rider whose horse died was so intimidated by him he/she never thought of questioning him about that jump. Many riders today take a few lessons and buy a big dollar horse and jump into the show ring. I bet a lot of them don’t even know how to take apart a bridle let alone have any concept of safety. So they go to a big trainer like GM and rely upon their knowledge. He is a very intimidating guy and if you were paying all that money for him to be your trainer, I can easily see how you would fear questioning said trainer even if you knew a steel pole wasn’t a safe obstacle.
Winning is great, but at what cost?
His teaching methods appear to verge on the sadistic. A good instructor should strive to improve their students perfomance with hard work, positive reinforcement, discipline etc… with SAFETY of both the horse and rider being paramount. Criticizing a rider’s conformation (something they can’t change) and bullying them into attempting courses beyond their ability point to an instructor who is dangerous.
What I don’t understand is GMs use of the pole after the accident. Compounding the mistake if you ask me. I hope whoever insured this horse thinks twice about the others he may have policies on in George’s barn.
The truth about these big name trainers and riders is seeping out, we have the internet to thank for that. Perhaps the days of 50% commissions on sale horses will be numbered (owners please advertise your horses direct on the net!)and there will be trainers who don’t mind if their students actually smile in the ring.
Oh my God Oh my God Oh my God.
God rest this poor animal’s soul.
Wow George another accident! Oh well just get another client or horse whichever!
I have a reply to almost every post I’ve read. But it won’t bring back our Saber. I speak of Grande Saber. I am barn manager for Tellwynd for fifteen years and been doing this professionally for thirty. I have kept quiet too long. Grande Saber was in training with Hunterdon. Saber was in Lake Placid sick from Tues. til Sunday without our knowledge. He died on Monday. He did not die of colic or pnemonia. He died a horrific death alone in a clinic in New York.
I was there right after his birth and took sole care of him the first three years of his life. My heart was with him everyday he was off the farm. He was our family, our hopes, our dreams and most of all the most beloved horse I have ever been around in my whole career.
Who watched over him while he was ill? Who monitored him? Was he left alone during his illness to ponder his future? Why wasn’t his family called? Did God(GM) think he could handle it? And what gave him the right? We were told it was an accident? What accident? Life went on for Hunterdon without a backward glance while the Tells are still greiving.I think they deserve answers to WHAT HAPPENED TO GRANDE SABER?
Why was he sick? Why was he left on the show grounds sick? He was ill for a week(?)in Lake Placid in 85+ temps.
Saber deserved better. The Tells deserved the right to make their own choices on the life and well being of the horse that meant as much to Joan as her own children.
I have seen many wonderful horses die throughout the years don’t get me wrong but this was cruel and insensitive. Please lets stop this from happening to someone else!!
Let’s stand up for our equine friends!!
You’re right someone does need to step up to the base. Why is everyone so hush hush when it comes to GM? Everything for George seems to be an “accident”. Oh and by the way when you think your above blame you can sleep well!
Thank you Erin for trying to put the brakes on the runaway gossip train! While the incident as reported here, if true, is very upsetting I am more appalled by the eagerness of some posters to trash a man’s hard earned professional reputation with little or no evidence. I don’t think that GM or anyone else, should have some special consideration based soley on their reputation but I do think that in this country a person is still considered innocent until PROVEN guilty. Surely, Mr Morris has the same right that we would claim for ourselves. Celebrity should not change his rights in either direction yet based soley on second and third hand accounts presented to you on an internet forum by persons unknown to you, most of you have been more than willing to believe the story and proceeded to pass judgement. THAT is to me horribly scarey. I am not a lawyer, so am unsure if any laws have been broken on this forum, but I can assure you that if it were my reputation that had been drug through the mud here that I would be seeking the advice of counsel to find out. The internet is in many ways a wonderful tool for both enjoyment and education but in the wrong hands, instant public communications can be hurtful both personally and professionally. I would ask you all to step back from your emotions for a moment and consider the cost to yourself if you were the person on the receiving end of an attack such as the one that has taken place here. If someone where to start a malicious rumor about something you supposedly did and others believed it and spread it without looking into the facts what would your reaction be? There is a very good reason why “heresay” evidence is not admissible in a court of law in this country, perhaps everyone here should consider whether or not it should be admissible in a public forum.
I think some of these ‘upper’ level coaches should remember one thing. They still put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us.
I am sure those close to the source will label this unfortunate situation as an ‘accident’. However, as we all know…car insurance companies no longer refer to claims as ‘accidents’. They now call them ‘collisions’…because at the end of the day - there is always someone who was responsible for the ‘collision’.
In this case, and if things have been reported correctly so far …then this was an ‘accident waiting to happen’…and certainly the trainer should have known better. On the other hand…perhaps the horse was a ‘bit overweight’…and just didn’t fit that ‘PERFECT’ picture…
Even in Canada…we are not removed from the politics that surround the hunter ring. It is VERY disappointing to see the emphasis on winning. Does it make a difference which coach you have standing by the side of the ring…as you go around the course - as to where you will place?? Does the judge notice that your trainer is ‘so & so’ and is the ranking any different because of this?? These are questions that many riders choose to ignore - just to say they rider with ‘such & so’ barn. If all they want is a box of ribbons…go to the local trophy shop and order some - and let the rest of us horse enthusiasts enjoy the sport…without causing undo pain and suffering to the horses.
I’m off to Wellington on Friday for my first taste of it. Mind you, I’m going as an observer only, and I am a Dressage rider, but I’m definitely a big wigged out by the whole thing!
Listen, this incident with George Morris has gone too far. The worst part is that most of this is a case of assumption. The details have been changed and directed towards George being a so called, “murderer”. THIS WAS AN ACCIDENT! I often travel to hunterdon with my barn for lessons and have jumped that jump so many times. it was used as a good training technique for form, etc. sure, maybe there was a mistake without capping the ends but then again, it was a freak accident. I think that riders should take time to calm down and realize that this could have just been as easily thier training. There must be a large debate because George is the “God” of showjumping. I am not provoking a fight, I am just standing up for what I think has happened.
This is about the saddest thing I have ever hear. How horrible.
To, WTYWMN4. Yes, i do understand the outrage, and unlike others on this board I do feel that George will face consequences, regardless of his stature. But a good point is made in a post by sisou, why was nothing said when the pole was seen in use. by the way, questions that need answered include that one, had someone wanted to, who was the authority to report to? Would they be able to stop it legally? With private facilites, on public showgrounds, there are immediate problems that need addressing. During circuit, stewards have 24/7 access via a signed release. How many other stables might have been scrambling to hide THEIR metal poles…it’s tragic, and i hope we can handle this from within(with no assistance from PETA) for example. And for the person that reported no one was doing anything about, and things were business as usual, where is tha and t information coming from??? Every one I talked to yesterday and today cares very much about what has happened
Erin,
Any idea of WHEN we can expect some facts? This incident happened at the end of last week. It is now Tuesday of the following week and I am not aware of any official word from anyone. Do we have to wait until the Chronicle prints something, which means at least one more week of speculation, or can we at least get the basics here?
I am trying very hard to be patient, but with the picture of that poor horse constantly in my mind, it is becoming harder and harder. I have to admit, my old '60s genes are beginning to creak into action. Anybody remember the words “establishment coverup”? I am afraid that this delay simply means that the participants are getting more time to put a story together, and that the true facts may become so buried that we will never know what really happened.
I hope I’m wrong, I hope that I am overreacting, but, as time goes on, I am becoming more and more afraid that I am not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SGray:
The reaction to the reports we have received thus far have been harsh but if in the end it works to promote the health and safety of the horses then it will have been overall to the betterment of our sports I would think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would be concerned if the reactions had not been harsh. Complacency never solved a thing. Let’s just make sure we are focusing on the real issue – and that it is a valid one in a court or administrative forum. I don’t believe the issue is cruelty, coercion, abuse, even foolishness or poor judgment. And hey, face it – would George Morris ever be convicted of cruelty or abuse to an animal? I think everyone would agree that there is way too much evidence to the contrary.
To me, the issue is: what do we expect from our horses – at a show or otherwise – and how do we attain it? These creatures we are so passionate about are both adaptable and intelligent.
I agree with the poster who said this may encourage a return to classical horsemanship. “Fads Come and Go and Nature Takes Care of What’s Unnatural.” Anyone recognize that quote?
[This message has been edited by KitBC (edited 01-26-2000).]
God, what a horrible thing to happen. I’ve seen jumper people pole horses to make them pick up their feet and even use that metal pole-which I thought was illegal. Even as a junior rider I never allowed any trainer to do those things to any of my horse. And when we were recently at a jumper clinic where this was done to a horse(not mine) we packed up and left. I personally don’t want any part of a trainer who uses those methods. A blue ribbon isn’t worth it-not then or now. I think in addition to being a cruel “training aid” it also amount to lying to the horse. the point to the pole is that the horse can’t see it-only the regular part of the jump- he therefore hits the pole causing pain and jumps higher in the ring. Here the rider he trusts has presented him to a jump which he has tried to clear only to find they raise the jump and bang his legs-how unfair to him!
It doesn’t surprise me that this occurs-when discussing what happened with B Ward a well known riders only comment was-I can’t believe anyone told.
I wish i could believe that George Morris, Barney Ward are the exceptions out there but somehow I doubt it. I’ve seen too much of the same thing going on. Ultimatly the only one who can protect our horses is us. If something isn’t right or cruel-speak up and say no! Hopefully reputations aside, someone will pay for this-obviously the horse paid dearly for doing what he’ was asked. Anyone who has first hand knowlege interested in reporting it or writing to Practical Horseman where George is a contributer- I’d be interested in seeing if it made print.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LucianCephus:
[B]Amen, Louise.
How long can this really take, Erin? The incident occurred a week ago…was it so complex? Several posters have accused this forum of a “vigilante” mind set; it occurs to me that this is a phenomenon which occurs when those officially empowered to act are PERCEIVED as doing nothing. It is critical that the media do their job fairly, impartially, and in a timely manner.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, don’t shoot the messenger, all right? This thread was started late Friday afternoon, and I didn’t see it until after the Chronicle office was closed for the weekend. The entire editorial staff discussed the subject yesterday, and calls were also put into George and officials at the show yesterday. As far as I know, we haven’t heard back from anyone yet… and I’m sure you all know how hard it is to track people down at a horse show 
I’ll pass along as much of the information as I can when we get it… you won’t have to wait for it to come out in print. George will also be offered the chance to address the issue in a future column.
And I repeat… calm down. Some people here seem ready to organize a lynching (whether it’s of George, the media, or the AHSA/USET) at the drop of a hat. Let’s give people a little bit of credit until they prove they deserve otherwise, all right?
I have been following the Between Rounds Forum for a long time and have enjoyed it thoroughly.I even feel as if I know some of you.I have probably learned from the various threads more about showing on the hunter/jumper circuit than I ever wanted to know.I have not expressed my opinions much because I tend to get over-excited on the subject of horses.I have loved them since age five and have been known to weep at a wonderful performance by these magnificent beings entrusted to our care.Now that you know that horses are my first concern I want to tell you my story and hope that it will cause some of to think about what you have said.Having bred track horses and Quarter/thoroughbred crosses for some time,I fell in love with a horse at the 1987 Pan-Am games ,BIG BEN.I was the aux.timer in the show-jumping arena so I had the opportunity to study this wonderful horse and decided that this was the kind of horse I wanted to breed.Because I feel that you must learn as much as possible if you want to succeed,I began a study of performance records of European Warmbloods.About two years into breeding my husband began to worry about marketing and I thought I needed some advice so I wrote to George Morris,not really expecting a reply.He called and wanted to talk to us.He did not know us.We are certainly not in the"in" crowd and we come from the mid-west ( not known as a major show-jumping area).Every year since we have seen him in Chicago and he gives his advice freely and graciously.We exchange letters two or three times a year and once when we needed help on something he helped us immediately.I know this much , not only does he love and respect horses,they are his whole life. What you interpret as arrogance is simply high expectations for both riders and horses.If you arent willing to give it your all,don’t go into his clinics.
Much of what I read in these posts seems to be resentment of the “in” group and their money at WPB—everything is relative —there are people probably looking at you and thinking you are a part of some in group.
If you cannot afford a “made” horse —make one yourself -learn about bloodlines -study conformation and athletic ability - purchase a young suitable prospect and help him to become a winner — you’ll be a better rider for the effort.
Finally I am excited that all of you contributing to these posts are horse lovers first and worry about horse abuse.That too is relative.because I consider it abuse to leave a horse in an enclosed stall ( no matter how fancy ,where he can’t stick his head out and visit with his neighbors) for more than 10 hours at a time.I hope all of you posting are seeing that their horses have turn-out.
Well said Hilltop. Why in the world was he schooling with a metal pipe? 
This situation is beyond contemptible. 
I feel so deeply for that poor horse.
The common practice when using a metal pole is to place a tennis ball on each end of the pole in order to prevent an accident like the one that happened to the horse mentioned in the accident.
I do not practice this nor does anyone where I ride. It is oldtimers knowledge.
The suggestion that all the horsepeople stop supporting the George Morris clinics and refuse to subscribe to magazines with his articles etc. is the best response so far.
The rider can sue GM and promote publicity to keep all informed about the situation but they probably will not do so.
It is all really too ugly and too darn sad.
Sorry Cowboy, but IF a horse doesn’t want to “play” there is no way on God’s green earth that you can make them play. I agree that jumping is unnatural for a horse, but so is having a rider on its back. The only thing that was on their backs predomestication, was a predator. So ANY use of a horse is NOT natural and subject to your faulty logic. Some horses enjoy working more thanothers and the ones that are “jumping for survival” are very easy to spot (by a HORSEMAN). If these horse didn’t want to cooperate, they would not and we would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle. I am somewhat amused that you sign yourself as “cowboy” because that implies that you use your horses for some unnatural acts too (if in fact you ARE a cowboy, not a wanna be) Horses don’t naturally herd cattle. Even though there are some that show some degree of “cow” they learn that behavior and show aptitude for that job, just like a jumper would show apptitude for the job of jumping. AND , YES, you DO see horses piaffing and passaging in their natural state. Ever see the display put on by a stallion courting a mare in the wild? Ever watch a fresh horse turned out on a brisk day? You get to see all those “tricks” and much, much, more. So don’t lay the “guilt trip” on the entire jumper world for using horses (as opposed to ABUSING them) because you are a hypocrite if you think that you aren’t doing the very same thing. Get off that HIGH HORSE before you fall!
Unfortunately many people do
not understand the correct use of much of the equipment available to horsemen.
Spurs are often used to torture and harrass a horse into going forward, while the rider
traps the horse with a tightly held curb in front. It is the USER not the equipment
that causes the problem. My only concern with the GM case is that in my
understanding, ALL the horses in the clinic, or at least all the horses in this particular
session were asked to jump the fence with an offset metal pole The attitude “appears” to
be one that considers ALL horses a ‘little lazy’ over a fence, and in need of some pain
to make them try harder. It does not appear that it was one specific horse with a
specific form problem that was being addressed - it seems like it was a trap to catch
the horses, and make them Overjump just for the sake of looking fancy over a fence.
Personally, I think the judges should penalize a horse who overjumps by too much. If
you were foxhunting and your horse threw himself into the air clearing each jump with
a foot to spare, you would run out of horse. A good and wise horse knows just how
high to jump to make a clean and safe effort, and that should be enough.
Yes, poling can be used to show a horse how to use his body in the air, just as taps
with whip can teach a horse how to develop more suspension in piaffe - but this does
not appear to be the case here. Nor is it the case in many many of the situations that
occur in the name of show training, and I mean that for ALL the horse sports - from
Arabian Halter to Western Pleasure. It is not a matter of equipment or technique, it is a
question of attitude towards the horses. Are we seeking to show the horse something
and then allow him to develop, or are we Making him Try Harder, Do more and Hurry Up
about it? Let's all think about what we do when we train - does it feel like art? Did it
take years to patiently learn the technique, or is it just something we can buckle on
and pull tight and voila - it makes the horse Look Great? Very rarely is there a piece of
equipment that can do that without doing some damage to the horse. So always
consider what price glory. In this instance, it cost a horse his life. Probably 10,000's of
horses have jumped like this and not been directly injured. But considering the number
of horses who go lame or burn out and become sour, maybe some of the injury is a
little harder to see. That is what I am talking about. Not Let's Get George - because to
do that denies that there is an over all problem. It takes the view that there is one bad
guy, or just a few bad guys, and we can punish them, and then we don't have to feel
guilty about anything that we do. If every trainer who uses gimmicks on most of their
horses were punished and kicked out of ASHA horse shows, the tumbleweeds would roll
down empty barn aisles from Indio to Florida. Think of how many dressage riders attach
draw reins to every horse they ride, every time they ride. It is wrong, but it is common.
The only hope for change is for riders at every level to recognise the problem for what
it is, and decide Not to be a part of it. Even if that means Not winning a ribbon, or not
getting to show as soon as someone who resorts to the short cuts. The reward will be
a truer relationship with our horses, and longevity and soundness, allowing time for the
partnership to mature and blossom. And those rewards seem much more valuable than
a $2 rosette. But more people are going to have to change their mind, and take the
long road, so that we encourage and reward the trainers who are on that path, and
hopefully leading the way for the next generation of riders. It is a change that can only
be made one rider at a time. You can make your contribution today. All you have to do
is choose. m