Schooling Show Judges

[yellowbritches]

There was a bit of a stink last fall over on the Eventing board after Boyd Martin (you know, the Olympian, winner of many, many FEI events, developer of many top horses, etc, etc, etc) volunteered as a dressage judge at a local unrecognized horse trial. Most of us found the stink to be rather silly since he A) VOLUNTEERED to sit and watch hours of beginner novice horses go and B) it was a fun, local unrec event and C) it was somebody who knew what the hell he was looking at.

I wouldn’t bat an eye at someone like that, or even another person with a less illustrious resume but nonetheless perfectly competent and knowledgeable. I may, however, avoid a show using a judge with the lack of credentials this particular person has…unless I knew for certain they had the credentials in another way (eventing, etc).

[bornfreenowexpensive]

A schooling show…I could care less. My goal is to get my horses in the ring…preferably to stay in the ring…and to go by the judges booth with a live body in it.

I don’t really care about my placings or score…although I want to do as well as I can.

I don’t even always pick up my tests or ribbons. I’m there to “school” being in a competition (dealing with warm ups, show activity etc.). And $25 a test is pretty reasonable.

We do have some schooling shows here that get very good judges…as in “R” and even an “S” on occassion. It is also a schooling show series that people bring out UL horses to get in the ring more (as in above 4th level). But even for those guys, the goal of just about everyone is just to be schooling for competition…so things you can really only practice in a competition setting. So while I might take the score I get from an “R” or “S” judge much more seriously…really, I still don’t care as much most of the time as that isn’t my priority of getting to a schooling show.

[schwung]

There are three reasons people go to dressage schooling shows. One is to get exposure for a young horse or one that hasn’t been out much. Maybe in that case it wouldn’t matter much (although personally, if the judge’s feedback wasn’t valuable to me, I’d probably just take the horse and pay the schooling fee and forget paying the class fees).

But for some, schooling shows are a test run for the real thing - for example, a chance to run through that test a couple more times and clean it up before championships. And for some, schooling shows are the end-all-be-all because there are plenty of people who just can’t afford to go to rated shows at the cost of $400-$600 per weekend, not to mention fork out all the extra money for show clothes and tack. I know plenty of people that fall into that category, and for them, they deserve quality judging because that’s all they are going to get.

I also think that while it may not be required for a schooling show, there is a lot more involved in judging dressage than, say, a flat class (which is very subjective and you only need to judge one horse against others in the class). There is a lot involved in judging dressage, even at training level, that even if you DO show you may not even be aware of. Rules about what constitutes an error vs. a lower mark. Rules about what you are looking for at each level, such as: Does the horse have to be on the bit in Intro level? Can the rider still post at 1st level? So many rules, that are all part of that very intensive L program, and rules that I would expect someone judging me to know.

And, $25 may not seem like much compared to a rated show, but it is quite expensive compared to your average english/western schooling show at $3-$5/class. If you aren’t paying for the judge’s expertise and that filled out test sheet full of feedback, what are you paying for? Certainly not the 50 cent ribbon that may accompany it.

I actually think its a disservice to dressage to allow those that aren’t qualified to judge it. Anyone that has ever scribed, especially at upper levels, has a glimpse at how hard it is. It’s not JUST knowing the rules, knowing the tests inside and out, and the requirements of each level. It’s also a skill that takes a ton of practice! You don’t get that skill by showing and reading score sheets. You don’t get it by scribing. You don’t get it anywhere except in the L program. And it is a disservice to those that did bust their backs and paid their dues to get through that program to then hire non-qualified judges.

There may not BE a requirement to use at least an L Graduate for a schooling show, but I certainly wouldn’t bother going to one that didn’t.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=schwung;7448140]
There are three reasons people go to dressage schooling shows. One is to get exposure for a young horse or one that hasn’t been out much. Maybe in that case it wouldn’t matter much (although personally, if the judge’s feedback wasn’t valuable to me, I’d probably just take the horse and pay the schooling fee and forget paying the class fees).

But for some, schooling shows are a test run for the real thing - for example, a chance to run through that test a couple more times and clean it up before championships. And for some, schooling shows are the end-all-be-all because there are plenty of people who just can’t afford to go to rated shows at the cost of $400-$600 per weekend, not to mention fork out all the extra money for show clothes and tack. I know plenty of people that fall into that category, and for them, they deserve quality judging because that’s all they are going to get.

I also think that while it may not be required for a schooling show, there is a lot more involved in judging dressage than, say, a flat class (which is very subjective and you only need to judge one horse against others in the class). There is a lot involved in judging dressage, even at training level, that even if you DO show you may not even be aware of. Rules about what constitutes an error vs. a lower mark. Rules about what you are looking for at each level, such as: Does the horse have to be on the bit in Intro level? Can the rider still post at 1st level? So many rules, that are all part of that very intensive L program, and rules that I would expect someone judging me to know.

And, $25 may not seem like much compared to a rated show, but it is quite expensive compared to your average english/western schooling show at $3-$5/class. If you aren’t paying for the judge’s expertise and that filled out test sheet full of feedback, what are you paying for? Certainly not the 50 cent ribbon that may accompany it.

I actually think its a disservice to dressage to allow those that aren’t qualified to judge it. Anyone that has ever scribed, especially at upper levels, has a glimpse at how hard it is. It’s not JUST knowing the rules, knowing the tests inside and out, and the requirements of each level. It’s also a skill that takes a ton of practice! You don’t get that skill by showing and reading score sheets. You don’t get it by scribing. You don’t get it anywhere except in the L program. And it is a disservice to those that did bust their backs and paid their dues to get through that program to then hire non-qualified judges.

There may not BE a requirement to use at least an L Graduate for a schooling show, but I certainly wouldn’t bother going to one that didn’t.[/QUOTE]

A-Not all recognized dressage shows cost $600 per weekend. That seems really high to me.
B-$25 per class is pretty cheap. You can’t compare it to a western group show at $3/class. Apples and oranges.
At most you’d do 2 classes in one day, so that’s $50. That’s not much more than a trailer in ring use fee at a lot of barns. For that you get the opportunity to get off the farm, practice in a crowded warm up, experience the “OMG there’s a MONSTER in the box/why is there a car parked at C” moment, ride your test twice in front of someone more knowledgeable than you are and get some written feedback on your execution of each movement, your position and your horse’s gaits. The judge is watching you and only you.

C-You get what you pay for. There’s nothing inherently unfair about that. If you can’t afford/don’t want to pay for recognized shows, then you make do with schooling shows. If you require licensed judges, then pick your schooling shows accordingly. There are many people who would prefer to pay less per test than have a licensed judge.

[lflowers]

“L” graduates should use all the same rules as rated shows.

[schwung]

[QUOTE=NCRider;7448239]
A-Not all recognized dressage shows cost $600 per weekend. That seems really high to me.
B-$25 per class is pretty cheap. You can’t compare it to a western group show at $3/class. Apples and oranges.
At most you’d do 2 classes in one day, so that’s $50. That’s not much more than a trailer in ring use fee at a lot of barns. For that you get the opportunity to get off the farm, practice in a crowded warm up, experience the “OMG there’s a MONSTER in the box/why is there a car parked at C” moment, ride your test twice in front of someone more knowledgeable than you are and get some written feedback on your execution of each movement, your position and your horse’s gaits. The judge is watching you and only you.

C-You get what you pay for. There’s nothing inherently unfair about that. If you can’t afford/don’t want to pay for recognized shows, then you make do with schooling shows. If you require licensed judges, then pick your schooling shows accordingly. There are many people who would prefer to pay less per test than have a licensed judge.[/QUOTE]

Who is to say the “judge” is more knowledgable than me without any qualifications at all?? I think you are missing my entire point. And I don’t require “licensed” judges for a schooling show, just someone with some knowledge of how to judge dressage. FYI, the schooling show fees are the same regardless of whether we get Lilo Fore, an L graduate, or Joe Blow off the street.

Around here (same area as OP) class fees run around $50-75/class for rated shows and with stabling a 3-day show averages around $450.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;7447424]
There was a bit of a stink last fall over on the Eventing board after Boyd Martin (you know, the Olympian, winner of many, many FEI events, developer of many top horses, etc, etc, etc) volunteered as a dressage judge at a local unrecognized horse trial. Most of us found the stink to be rather silly[/QUOTE]

That was the first thing I thought of when I read this!

[QUOTE=schwung;7448321]

Around here (same area as OP) class fees run around $50-75/class for rated shows and with stabling a 3-day show averages around $450.[/QUOTE]

That seems very high. I’m in a pretty high cost of living area, and I just pulled up the Ride for Life prizelist, since I’d been looking at it the other day. Even the FEI classes there are only $60. Those prices seem very high, unless you’re doing something like one of the big winter circuits. It’s going to cost me under $500 total to do two rated shows this year.

[schwung]

High cost of living area, but not Wellington or CA. Not sure why ours are so high! It seems like it gets worse every few years. I budget $500 for a 3 day show if I stable four days and camp. More if I have to get a hotel!

[ShouldersBack]

I can see this is a passionate subject for some, and schwung illustrates my main concern with the statement “who is to say the judge is more qualified than me without any qualifications at all”. The person that inspired my original post has no show record and isn’t even a trainer in the area or elsewere.

I am one of those riders that will never be able to afford a rated show, and adding the costs of membership in the various orgs (USDF, USEF, etc.) along with trailering and stabling, its out of my reach; but I still feel that I’m deserving of the critique of a trained eye. Or at the very least the critique of an eye that has been successful in the bigger sandbox that a rated show would provide.

Again, thank you all for your feedback, it’s been very enlightening.

[katarine]

Agreed…if I burn a Saturday that I could be on a boat…I’d like to ride in front of someone with some chops. …so an L graduate at least.

[exvet]

That seems very high. I’m in a pretty high cost of living area, and I just pulled up the Ride for Life prizelist, since I’d been looking at it the other day. Even the FEI classes there are only $60.

Our regular tests/classes at a recognized show, that is training through fourth level, are $60 a piece and FEI classes are $70 a piece. Stabling costs vary with the venue. We have two schooling show series that charge $15/class and one that charges $35 for the first test and then an additional $25 for each additional class. I too usually spend a minimum of $600 per weekend per show if I’m only showing one horse (ave 4 tests) or two horses 1 test per day for each. Just giving a comparison since prices here keep climbing too.

[netg]

[QUOTE=schwung;7448415]
High cost of living area, but not Wellington or CA. Not sure why ours are so high! It seems like it gets worse every few years. I budget $500 for a 3 day show if I stable four days and camp. More if I have to get a hotel![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=exvet;7448487]That seems very high. I’m in a pretty high cost of living area, and I just pulled up the Ride for Life prizelist, since I’d been looking at it the other day. Even the FEI classes there are only $60.

Our regular tests/classes at a recognized show, that is training through fourth level, are $60 a piece and FEI classes are $70 a piece. Stabling costs vary with the venue. We have two schooling show series that charge $15/class and one that charges $35 for the first test and then an additional $25 for each additional class. I too usually spend a minimum of $600 per weekend per show if I’m only showing one horse (ave 4 tests) or two horses 1 test per day for each. Just giving a comparison since prices here keep climbing too.[/QUOTE]

Yep, with office fees, various fees which are less for members but still there, stall fees, shavings fees (not supposed to bring your own!), etc… I expect it to be $500+ if I am showing in two classes a day at a rated show.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=ShouldersBack;7448450]
I can see this is a passionate subject for some, and schwung illustrates my main concern with the statement “who is to say the judge is more qualified than me without any qualifications at all”. The person that inspired my original post has no show record and isn’t even a trainer in the area or elsewere.

I am one of those riders that will never be able to afford a rated show, and adding the costs of membership in the various orgs (USDF, USEF, etc.) along with trailering and stabling, its out of my reach; but I still feel that I’m deserving of the critique of a trained eye. Or at the very least the critique of an eye that has been successful in the bigger sandbox that a rated show would provide.

Again, thank you all for your feedback, it’s been very enlightening.[/QUOTE]

If that is what you want to get out of a schooling show, then you don’t go to that schooling show. Simple. You would pick your schooling show based on the judging. That is perfectly fine. People pick shows and schooling shows for lots of different and very valid reasons.

For many of us, we don’t care who the judge is or our score/placing at a schooling show. I pick my schooling shows based on venue. Do they have good footing. Atmosphere. Etc. I really don’t care at all about the judging. Actually. This is how I pick my recognized shows too.

[MysticOakRanch]

We pay $55 - $65 for “regular” classes, plus office fees, stabling ($150 to $285/weekend or $25 - $35 to haul in), plus drug fees, so showing 4 classes over a weekend is going to be over $500, plus any rider costs (meals, hotel, etc). There are enough so I can haul in and not stay in a hotel, but even with no hotel and stabling, if I do 4 rides over 2 days, it is about $400. Rated shows are expensive.

Schooling shows tend to be $25 to $40/ride plus office fee and CA drug fee - and honestly, for that price, I’d prefer a little decent feedback, although like many, I’m more worried about a positive experience for a young horse. It bothers me when schooling shows use non-qualified officials. Let your $ talk - find another venue;)

[hoopoe]

back during the dinosaur age, before there was an “L” program schooling shows used anyone who would step up and do them.

For the most part the judges were local advance level trainers who had training and show experience themselves. Every so often a “r” rated judge.

I might consider riding in a schooling show with a judge who had no show experience ( not everyone shows) if my agenda was to get myself and my horse out for a mental experience. I cannot fathom, however, a judge who is said to have no training experience. If the judge so said, is someone who themselves has ridden / trained to say PSG I would be OK with it. Judging is NOT about telling you had to do something better. A schooling show not there to train you. The comments are to tell what qualities are present or lacking. Most riders of a certain level of experience should be able to see that. It does not take a trainer. A majority of “L” grads in the two programs I volunteered through were advance ami riders.

putting together into a cogent test sheet with scores and comments takes a ton of practice. Even "L"s need to have a learning curve to actually put it all together.

In the OP original situation, I would let my agenda decide. If I felt I needed the ring time ( mental) then I would probably go.

[MaisieMae]

Full disclosure: I am an “L” graduate with distinction who has been judging for 10 years. Have shown thru PSG.

If you are selecting a schooling show based just on the quality of the assessment you will be getting for your ride, choose to show where you will be judged by an “L” graduate or licensed official. At this point you cannot become a licensed official in the US without having gone through the “L” program and graduating with distinction. This means many hours of learning a methodology for assessing and judging horses. Anyone who has gone thru the “L” Program and become a graduate has done quite a bit of study and hard work to learn a technique and method by which to judge.

While being a Silver or Gold Medalist means you have shown and attained a certain level of expertise in riding and showing, it does not necessarily mean that you have a methodology for arriving at scores. I am not saying that a Silver or Gold Medal rider doesn’t have some logical method for arriving at scores. What I am saying is that you have no way of knowing what that method might be, and if it is in any way in line with how a licensed official would arrive at a score.

If you show for an “L” graduate you can at least be sure that they have been trained in a methodology. That being said, there are all kinds of reasons for showing at a Schooling Show. If it’s just to get out and you don’t care about the judging or score the judge’s credentials may not matter to you.

[Jealoushe]

My mom judges several schooling shows in the area, she is a winning Second level rider. She always gets asked back because people love her judging, and it is fair.

Why pay $500 for a certified judge when you can pay half for someone who is good enough for a schooling show and people have a good time? Show organizers need to make some money here.

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=ShouldersBack;7448450]
I can see this is a passionate subject for some, and schwung illustrates my main concern with the statement “who is to say the judge is more qualified than me without any qualifications at all”. The person that inspired my original post has no show record and isn’t even a trainer in the area or elsewere.

I am one of those riders that will never be able to afford a rated show, and adding the costs of membership in the various orgs (USDF, USEF, etc.) along with trailering and stabling, its out of my reach; but I still feel that I’m deserving of the critique of a trained eye. Or at the very least the critique of an eye that has been successful in the bigger sandbox that a rated show would provide.

Again, thank you all for your feedback, it’s been very enlightening.[/QUOTE]

I have to ask then, why you go to a show rather than an experienced trainer ? I would also suggest that you not enter a show if you do not “approve” the judge.

[fooler]

Probably not as common as it was several decades ago but. . . We hosted several HT/Dressage shows a year at my old barn. The main judge was a retired “O” level judge, who started young horses, trained horses/riders, hosted and rode in clinics with world-level Dressage instructors and competed very lightly. Oh yes - she was on several selection committees for the US 3-Day team in the 1970’s.
The local CT/Dressage association was prepared at one time to block her from judging - they only wanted those with current licenses and current training. Funny some of those same “current” judges came out of this person’s barn.
Thanks to the input of several very intelligent members of the association those older judges were “grandfathered” into the list of “approved” judges.

Don’t know you or the person you are referring to, but he/she may have more knowledge and experience than you know.

[ShouldersBack]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7449184]
I have to ask then, why you go to a show rather than an experienced trainer ? I would also suggest that you not enter a show if you do not “approve” the judge.[/QUOTE]

I’m not going to enter the show, I stated that on page one.

I already ride with an experienced trainer, who is also an L graduate in addition to FEI level competitor; and I go to SS because I can’t afford the big shows and for the observations/suggestions from someone as experienced, or more so, as my instructor (who also judges at SS). Sometimes its good to get insight and observations from other trainers/judges.

Furthermore, it isn’t about whether I approve of the judge or not, it’s about someone with no credentials to speak of being hired as a judge. It just doesn’t seem right that just anyone can do it, there is quite a bit of technicalities involved.