I hope I’m not bugging y’all to death with my hackamore questions, but I’ve got more!
I’m struggling with rein length. As I come from dressage land, I’ve been taught to ride with contact and even though I’ve always had a tendency to ride with my reins too long, I’m able to make contact.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but with the hackamore I don’t want steady contact, correct? So if my reins are long enough to be loopy, when I need contact I end up pulling my reins (for lack of a better term) up to my chest so that my elbows almost come behind me but the slack is taken out of the rein. This doesn’t seem right to me. I videoed myself today and it just doesn’t seem right… (Reminder that I am going to a clinic in a couple weeks, I just want to get a feel for it before I go so I’m not doing too much)
Meanwhile, though, I did get a few freeze frames from the video:
This is between a loopy rein and actual contact…
This is after a halt…
This is Mac being cute after our ride…
I think the reins were adjusted too short so I’ll likely lengthen them for the next time I ride.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but with the hackamore I don’t want steady contact, correct?
I think this is something that aktill and I can agree on 100%…no, NO steady contact with a bosal!!!
At my first clinic, someone rode by alongside Buck, and she asked him, referring to ME on my horse, ‘Buck, is this what you mean by a broken-neck posture, flexing between C2 and C3 instead of at the poll?’ He said, yes.
Mac doesn’t have his neck in a broken posture, but the base of his neck is down.
In your blog videos from last fall, I see you riding with what you know as contact, with Mac ‘grumpy’ sometimes, and gapping his mouth sometimes.
And I know you’ve expressed conflict about how dressage ‘tells’ you that you must maintain a contact to be correct, to get collection, to get the horse using himself properly… and yet Mac told you how much better he felt when you were generous with ‘release’ to the point you were sometimes without contact.
I pretty much gave up ‘contact’ for a long while. My horse’s neck looks much better.
I learned to ask for him to raise the base of his neck, rather than ‘tuck yer nose’. He had some ingrained bad habits from being ridden (not by me) in draw reins, and some muscular/neurological patterns to go with. (Mac doesn’t have those issues to the same degree.)
So what to do, in halter, snaffle or bosal:
Don’t ride on a contact, try to make the contact mental (he’s feeling back to you) rather than physical.
Learn to ask him to raise his ribcage and withers, raise the base of his neck. Starting on the ground, and just for a moment at a time, at first.
And really work on connecting the rein, to the foot.
In an attempt to prove that they AREN’T on contact, the show world often ridiculously exaggerates how much loop to put in a rein. No need to do that. As long as you aren’t causing the heel knot of the bosal to move, that’s enough rein for the most part. Later on when your horse is responding to the weight of the rein you can add another layer to the definition, but for now, go with that. Be close enough so that if you need to grab rein you’re not hauling in miles of slack, but not so close that you’re tempted to fiddle around with your fingertips, pretending to be on a loose rein (wore that t-shirt out myself, let alone having it).
Philosophically, however, don’t ride around mentally “on contact on a loose rein”. By that I mean, only ask him a question if you want him to change what he’s doing, or if he’s not quite getting what you’re asking. Don’t wait there hovering over his shoulder, not quite saying something, but waiting for him to make a mistake. I think we can all relate to the person hovering behind you, and how distracting that can be.
At first, just let him move out and find his own balance in the gear. While the snaffle needs to activated to ask much of anything, you’ve now moved into a realm of tack that has it’s own inherent balance.
Bruce Sandifer speaks of the horse hunting the center of the bosal. Use that image, and at first remember that the horse needs to find the resting spot to carry the bosal when you’re NOT asking a question. Once he’s comfortable doing that, you can ask a question by changing the balance of the bosal, and having him look again for the center. If you never let them find neutral, however, he’ll struggle differentiating cue from center.
In a nutshell that’s the difference between pressure tack and balance or signal tack. In pressure tack you do something to the horse to get him to change, where in signal tack you change your own balance or the balance of the gear, and the horse hunts that. In a snaffle you use contact to define the center point, where in a bosal the tack itself has it’s own center.
Make sense? If she vets clear on Tuesday I’m going to be bringing a little Azteca mare home, and this is most of all I plan to with her at first…ride around letting her find her own balance, and that of the tack. If I need to save myself I’ll bump her or take her hip away, but my goal is not overface her to that point and instead work within the limits where her needing to save herself doesn’t get me in trouble.
Refinement (getting her between the leg and reins, altering her balance etc) comes after a certain level of comfort is established.
aktill, good luck with the PPE! I hope you give us pictures and an intro if all goes well! Will you go straight to the hackamore with her?
So just let him trot around and poke his nose out or up or down or wherever he needs in order to find balance and otherwise leave him alone? What you say about not hovering makes sense. I think I’ll take up on my reins a little more, though, so any movement I need to make isn’t over exaggerated.
The fit is better after using the shaping block, but it is still a little wide around the sides so I’m thinking the big can + heavy shoelace shaping system is in order.
You can see my cavaletti in the background - I had them set up such that I could do the cloverleaf pattern at the walk today.
Interesting, F, about you giving up contact and saying your horse’s neck looks better. I was watching a dressage symposium DVD recently and Gerd Heuschmann (did I spell that right? he’s a vet from Germany who also rides) was one of the presenters. He said he had gotten a new horse (who, IIRC, was untrained), and as an experiment, he rode the horse not on contact for the first two years and said the horse’s neck looked amazing and the horse didn’t “lose” any on-the-bit-ness (my very technical term) or correct muscling or ability to properly use itself. I think he said he didn’t even lunge with side reins - he did ground work and some lunging (a la Manolo Mendez, perhaps?) but no auxiliary aids to put the horse in a “frame.”
Back in ye olde days when I first got Mac and was with a dressage trainer, it was about heavy contact, and she did have me lunge him in side reins. I didn’t like to do it a lot and didn’t stay with her for toooo long, but I always cringed when she’d say to put them one step shorter. I’d say, “really? are you sure?” It just didn’t sit right with me and I quickly gave that system up.
Do you do ground work with your hackamore like with a rope halter, or do rope halter ground work first, then put on the hackamore?
My advise is you are over thinking the shaping. Otherwise, you would have to have separate hackamore for every horse you ride. It does not need to fit like a caveson. It does not have to fit exactly, or he cannot move his jaw, and there will not be enough action. The bosal needs room to rotate. Notice his check muscles? His face gets larger as you go up. You have to have some room to accommodate that, otherwise, you might as well ride in a caveson. A good hackamore can be shaped enough with your hands. It is meant to be somewhat flexable. It looks to me that it is shaped enough. I wouldn’t do more.
A few points, if you don’t mind.
I would put a string to keep the side cheeks from getting into the eye as the hackamore comes into effect.
To me, that is one downside to those hackamores, they hang up higher on the sides of the nose and the side cheeks tend to dig into horse’s eyes as those bulkier hackamores move around just from their weight.
Are you posting in the first picture?
You do seem to be a bit perched up there, not really with the horse, as I would expect someone in a western saddle.
I think that just getting out there and working the horse will loosen you up nicely, don’t worry about every little detail just now, ride on as you are trying to figure things out.
Don’t forget, it is not about the hackamore, but your whole body, what the horse understands you want from what all of you is telling it, not especially what you have on it’s head, that to the horse is a complement to the whole of you.
In an attempt to prove that they AREN’T on contact, the show world often ridiculously exaggerates how much loop to put in a rein. No need to do that. As long as you aren’t causing the heel knot of the bosal to move, that’s enough rein for the most part. Later on when your horse is responding to the weight of the rein you can add another layer to the definition, but for now, go with that. Be close enough so that if you need to grab rein you’re not hauling in miles of slack, but not so close that you’re tempted to fiddle around with your fingertips, pretending to be on a loose rein (wore that t-shirt out myself, let alone having it).
Good point…
don’t go the ‘sissy fingers’ route, don’t be afraid to USE the reins, to ask for something, to use pressure and release when you need to do so.
Maybe a better definition of what I did, was give up trying to get ‘carry a soft feel’ without supervision. Because ‘carry a soft feel’ turned into, pull on your horse’s mouth and annoy him and allow him to brace, bend between c2 and c3, and drop his weight on his forehand…because I had ‘carry a contact’ wrong.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7468970]
aktill, good luck with the PPE! I hope you give us pictures and an intro if all goes well! Will you go straight to the hackamore with her?[/QUOTE]
Thanks! That’s the plan. She’s had a couple of years doing baby trail rides in a snaffle, but I’ll only use that as much as I have to this time around (to translate what she knows).
Yep. He needs to just get used to moving out with the balance of the tack on its own.
I disagree with what Bluey wrote below - the whole point of fitting a hackamore properly is so that it DOESN’T move around on its own. When the bosal is shaped properly and the size/weight of the mecate is balanced to the whole rig, it doesn’t move around. You only have to support it if it isn’t balanced right.
I read an interesting thing on Facebook last night, in a group that tends towards starting horses in the hackamore. Bruce Sandifer mentioned that there are those that ride the hackamore like it was a bridle, and those that ride like a snaffle (tends to be folks in the Dorrance/Hunt/Brannaman legacy). Neither is wrong, but they do have a different approach.
I’m going to keep that in mind when I comment around here in the future. I try to ride my hackamores like a bridle, which is why I was never able to rationalize the opening rein effects etc. Not everyone rides like that though.
If you’re way off to the side with a hackamore, you’re risking tipping the poll the wrong way. You should also tie your reins a little differently…bowline around the neck, half hitch around the heel knot, then the balance out to the side.
Richard Caldwell showed how to do this in his intro hackamore training video.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7468970]
His head ranged from up in the air to nose on the ground and everywhere in between - perhaps that is him trying to find the balance?[/QUOTE]
That would be my call. The best way to introduce this in my experience (or a two rein later on) is to just go on a trail ride. Let him have his head as much as you feel comfortable and only mess with him if you have to.
When he’s stable and consistent, or heading way in the wrong direction (ie head down enough to get really on the forehand), then go back to schooling.
Changing his balance only works well if he has a neutral he can relate to. If the neutral is constantly changing based off your hands, he’s more likely to need to be nagged to find any consistency.
Thanks for the advice, aktill - I took it and went trail riding today! I will admit I was a bit nervous because I feel like if the shit hit the fan then I may be screwed. At the same time, if the shit really hit the fan with the snaffle, I’d be screwed, too!
We mostly walked, but did a bit of trot and canter and some leg yields and bending - just a bit, though. Mostly we just moseyed down the trail with a long rein.
Which brings me to some more questions. I think I remember you saying that the hackamore is to be used with two hands. If you ride in it in the manner you would a horse in the bridle, then why don’t you use the hackamore with one hand? I tend to be lazy on trail rides and ride one-handed, so I had to consciously remind myself to have both hands on the reins, or at least put both hands there before signaling him to bend.
I think it fits well enough that it doesn’t roll around on his face if I do take up contact with one rein or the other - he didn’t seem to mind it a bit.
One hand riding with horses that are that far is fine in the hackamore.
Using two hands is because you then use an open hand, kind of a direct rein, but the contact is more the light bump type, not continuous contact and that kind of rein handling is better for quickness and training.
The lighter touch of one handed riding is for when that is the kind of riding you are doing, regardless of what you have on your horse’s head.
Works best with curbs and that is what is required to show, but any other time, you can use one hand, if it is working for what you do, like cruising down the road.
Remember bosals are signal tools, you don’t guide horses with them like you can with a snaffle, or you may dull the horse and eventually may find them running thru your signals.
I am glad aktill mentioned just trail riding or riding on a loose rein and giving him some time to just figure it out. It’s a lot like putting a new bit on a horse, I just let them pack it so they can mouth it and feel it to get accustomed to it.
The contact concept may be hard to get over at first. Like I have mentioned before I haven’t ridden English so I don’t really understand bit contact. But I do have the tendency to use my hands a little too much and it has been a lifelong struggle to think about body position before using the hand. My hands are not rough, I have been told that I have a soft hand but just use it too much. Maybe be aware of using less hand and use your body then just give pulls and slacks to reinforce?
Aktill touched on something, I also read the same post as he did on Bruce Sandifer’s Facebook and I learned what little I know from that “old school” train of thought they were talking about. I was taught a lot of the Ed Connell type stuff which was said to be riding a hackamore more like a snaffle bit. Matter of fact, as a teenager starting mustang colts we two-reined them in a snaffle and hackamore! I haven’t done that for twenty years and had forgot all about it until reading the post on FB. With that said my approach to riding in a hackamore is probably different than most on here. Bruce’s style piques my interest as he is more about balance and using the hackamore much like a bridle rather than my style of “geeing” and “hawing”, for a lack of a better term.
One thing I like about Bruce is he is an advocate for what works for you and your horse. He says that he just uses what works for him. Use what works for you but one thing to remember from both schools of thought are that you don’t use steady contact. The heel knot should rest on the chin until you are ready to signal/cue him.
You asked about riding him like as if he was in the bridle. At this point since you are introducing him to the hackamore I say two hands. As he “gets it” your hands will come closer together and at some point just using one hand which will be an indicator for the two rein, in my opinion. You don’t want your hands so wide that it shifts the bosal from side to side when you use a rein but just enough to help him through a turn if he needs it. I use more upward pulls and slacks rather to my hip or back and only one rein at a time.
I don’t let a horse pull on me with it either. If he wants get a little pushy or rude I break him down and get him soft right now. Once he is soft I leave him alone and readjust the position of the bosal. I never want him to get numb or let him learn he can run through it.
My method may seem a little rougher than what most are teaching and I am not saying the way I was taught is the only way or the best way. Just giving a little different perspective on the use. Have fun, don’t be scared of it
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7472014]
Thanks for the advice, aktill - I took it and went trail riding today! I will admit I was a bit nervous because I feel like if the shit hit the fan then I may be screwed. At the same time, if the shit really hit the fan with the snaffle, I’d be screwed, too![/QUOTE]
Good stuff, hope you had fun!
I think you’re remembering me saying you should ride with two REINS at all times, but I didn’t necessarily mean two hands. Those reins can (and as much as is feasible, should) be in one hand. At first you’re going to need to be able to explain lateral flexion using two hands, but keeping the reins as close to the neck is advisable (as I’ve learned it). You can double a horse in half never taking the rein out to the side doing it this way, should you need to.
The reason I’ve come to believe in using the reins this way rather than teaching lateral flexion with the hands way out to the side (esp one rein way out to the side) is the point again about tipping the poll the wrong way. If you drop the right rein and hold the left rein way out to the side, whether it can actually move that way or not due to shaping the heel knot is being asked to move out from under the poll to the left. If he resists even a little, that’s asking the horse to tip his nose to the left and twist his spine clockwise. They can eventually learn to keep their head plumb and move it instead or twisting, but that’s a learned response. Ask yourself if you have the awareness and timing to make sure his head is plumb BEFORE releasing the rein each time, so you can instill that learned response (I know I don’t).
If you instead use both reins (an active left rein with a supporting right rein), then the heel knot isn’t going to be induced to tip. Even if you only use the left but make sure to keep the rein in against the neck, there still isn’t nearly as much moment arm asking the heel knot to tip.
Make sense?
In summary, I ride as much as possible in one hand with all my gear. In fact, the more you can ride in one hand, the easier the transition to the bridle will be. Eventually, even the suggestion of reining up and to the offside will be enough to ask your horse to bend to the inside.
[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7472237]
I don’t let a horse pull on me with it either. If he wants get a little pushy or rude I break him down and get him soft right now. Once he is soft I leave him alone and readjust the position of the bosal. I never want him to get numb or let him learn he can run through it.
My method may seem a little rougher than what most are teaching and I am not saying the way I was taught is the only way or the best way. Just giving a little different perspective on the use. Have fun, don’t be scared of it :)[/QUOTE]
Great post, and I just wanted to touch on this topic since I’ve struggled with it in the past.
I first learned hackamore technique from Richard Caldwell, and he was absolutely adamant that the horse never lean on the hackamore. Watching him ride, he’d often double a horse two dozen times in a half hour to prevent that. Even with his razor sharp timing, it would often stir the horse and surrounding dust up a fair amount until the horse really got what he’d been asking for.
I don’t have that timing, and getting in sharply to make sure the horse isn’t leaning isn’t something I do well. I’ve instead learned to make sure the horse responds when I ask, but then to give him enough rein that there isn’t something to lean again. He’s not allowed to ignore a request, but I’m not providing him anything to lean on otherwise.
Bruce OTOH, says that he’ll double a horse if he needs to, but doesn’t do it ALL the time. His rein work is different; rather then bumping a horse back off the bosal all the time, he’ll keep the bosal in motion until the horse responds. It’s a different approach that I’ve found more success with, personally, but either works. I just try not to have to kick up dust to prove a point very often since I’m not always as good at settling it down again later!
Changing his balance only works well if he has a neutral he can relate to. If the neutral is constantly changing based off your hands, he’s more likely to need to be nagged to find any consistency.[/QUOTE]
Went for another trail ride today and this really stuck in my head and I thought about it a lot. I tried to ride with both my hands and my legs in neutral and it was a very helpful visual, so thanks for that comment.
I understand what people have said about how riding in a hackamore shows you your own holes. One of mine is that I go to my hands first, so I really tried to be aware of my desire to do that today and go to the leg first if I needed to move his ribcage over. Keeping in mind the “hanging out in neutral” body position, I realized how little I need to do with my leg to get him to take a step over or subtly shift his body position.
Those reins can (and as much as is feasible, should) be in one hand. At first you’re going to need to be able to explain lateral flexion using two hands, but keeping the reins as close to the neck is advisable (as I’ve learned it). You can double a horse in half never taking the rein out to the side doing it this way, should you need to.
When you use your reins in one hand, how are they positioned? I either hold on to where the buckle would be, or I had a loop. But I’ve seen (I think in a two-rein video) where both reins are sort of “together” and the bight comes out of the top sort of like a teardrop - does that make sense?
Today with the loop I could stick out my index finger to just give a little touch to one rein, or I could sort of bend/twist my wrist to get the other rein to activate a bit. Again, I didn’t have to do much to get a response. Mind you, I wasn’t asking for a big response (big bend, for example), but I was trying to be mindful of any change to my slight request and rewarding that.
I realized a bit into my ride that I had put the reins over his head backward/twisted! Gah! It didn’t seem to cause any problems, though, but I did get off and re-set them.
How many wraps do you have with your mecate? I have 1 before I pull my reins through, 'cause Mac’s head is so big - I couldn’t do any more - and then I pull my reins and do a final wrap for the get-down rope. Is there any reason that would be a problem?
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7474185]
Went for another trail ride today and this really stuck in my head and I thought about it a lot. I tried to ride with both my hands and my legs in neutral and it was a very helpful visual, so thanks for that comment.
I understand what people have said about how riding in a hackamore shows you your own holes. One of mine is that I go to my hands first, so I really tried to be aware of my desire to do that today and go to the leg first if I needed to move his ribcage over. Keeping in mind the “hanging out in neutral” body position, I realized how little I need to do with my leg to get him to take a step over or subtly shift his body position.
When you use your reins in one hand, how are they positioned? I either hold on to where the buckle would be, or I had a loop. But I’ve seen (I think in a two-rein video) where both reins are sort of “together” and the bight comes out of the top sort of like a teardrop - does that make sense?
Today with the loop I could stick out my index finger to just give a little touch to one rein, or I could sort of bend/twist my wrist to get the other rein to activate a bit. Again, I didn’t have to do much to get a response. Mind you, I wasn’t asking for a big response (big bend, for example), but I was trying to be mindful of any change to my slight request and rewarding that.
I realized a bit into my ride that I had put the reins over his head backward/twisted! Gah! It didn’t seem to cause any problems, though, but I did get off and re-set them.
How many wraps do you have with your mecate? I have 1 before I pull my reins through, 'cause Mac’s head is so big - I couldn’t do any more - and then I pull my reins and do a final wrap for the get-down rope. Is there any reason that would be a problem?[/QUOTE]
I was wondering about that, if you had enough room to tie the reins on properly.
The hackamore in the pictures looks just a tad too small for his head.
Since that is what you have, you make do with that by just wrapping what fits, even if it may not be what is generally suggested.
Great post, and I just wanted to touch on this topic since I’ve struggled with it in the past.
I first learned hackamore technique from Richard Caldwell, and he was absolutely adamant that the horse never lean on the hackamore. Watching him ride, he’d often double a horse two dozen times in a half hour to prevent that. Even with his razor sharp timing, it would often stir the horse and surrounding dust up a fair amount until the horse really got what he’d been asking for.
I don’t have that timing, and getting in sharply to make sure the horse isn’t leaning isn’t something I do well. I’ve instead learned to make sure the horse responds when I ask, but then to give him enough rein that there isn’t something to lean again. He’s not allowed to ignore a request, but I’m not providing him anything to lean on otherwise.
Bruce OTOH, says that he’ll double a horse if he needs to, but doesn’t do it ALL the time. His rein work is different; rather then bumping a horse back off the bosal all the time, he’ll keep the bosal in motion until the horse responds. It’s a different approach that I’ve found more success with, personally, but either works. I just try not to have to kick up dust to prove a point very often since I’m not always as good at settling it down again later![/QUOTE]
I agree
I try not to do it(doubling or breaking one down) all the time either.
Too be honest, I am a bit of a chicken and don’t want to get a horse thinking he can run through the hackamore due to my inability. So I am pretty choosey about when I ride my horses outside in one just for that reason. If we are going to have an easy day and I can just trail a few cows down the fence and maybe fiddle with my horse and keep things slow I will use it. I like using one when we are working in the corrals doing a little sorting and shipping. I have noticed it is just easier for me to get one working okay in one there. If I know that we will be running around doctoring yearlings or chasing something on the mountain, things might get fast and heated or it’s going to be a long day I will use a snaffle. I would like to learn to get away from the snaffle like these guys are teaching and be able to apply that to what I am doing outside. I know that switching back and forth from the hackamore and snaffle is not traditional but given my limited knowledge and my situation it works. I am not riding the same horse everyday so my horses may only get used one day a week which makes it hard to get some consistency.
Since this conversation has come up I dug out my Ed Connell book, and he wrote doubling a horse too much is worse than not doing it all. But obviously it used to work for Richard Caldwell. I just don’t want to do that much of it or get a horse on the fight or worried about it. Just goes to show how much there is to learn I guess!
I can “cheat” one this way if I am roping and pull the slack out of my reins if I have too much by using my teeth or not roping by using my right hand.
Also you can switch hands back and forth. The pic shows my left hand as holding if I need to help the right rein, I can reach down with right hand to use the rein. If I need to use the left I just switch hands the right hand would do the same as the pic as showing and I can reach with the left hand and use the left rein.
I am not sure if this is the “correct” way or if it is even remotely close to what Buck is going to show you when you go to the clinic but it will give you something to experiment with
Nothing wrong with that. The nice part about this system is that there’s no shame in moving around between “phases” of gear. Lots of working folks only use the bridle for shows or big loop days, and then use the two rein for when things are going to get fast (even on their bridle horses). They may even use only a hackamore in the pens so their bridle reins don’t hang up on a panel, or use a synthetic mecate when it’s raining hard to save the rawhide etc.
One of the more ridiculous reasons I heard for allowing full bridles in intro WD tests was that “experienced” horses and riders were too used to them to “go down” to a snaffle. How is a horse experienced if he doesn’t really understand the phases that should have come beforehand? To each their own, but “older horse, big bit” is a pretty common attitude when it doesn’t need to be. It’s usually more like “up the bit when you fail out of the little one”.
[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7474617]I agree
Since this conversation has come up I dug out my Ed Connell book, and he wrote doubling a horse too much is worse than not doing it all. But obviously it used to work for Richard Caldwell. I just don’t want to do that much of it or get a horse on the fight or worried about it. Just goes to show how much there is to learn I guess! :)[/QUOTE]
Richard’s horses definitely worked well for him, I have no right to criticise. I just know if I’d tried to mimic him I would have ended up with a neurotic horse or a few unplanned dismounts.
(Reminder that I am going to a clinic in a couple weeks, I just want to get a feel for it before I go so I’m not doing too much)
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