Seeking recommendations on Hanoverian (or approved) stallions

[HVH]

We have a 2007 Rotspon/Welser/Achenbach mare who just achieved her Hanoverian Elite Mare Candidate Status. Radiance is a refined yet powerful dressage mare with a ton of presence, extremely nice gaits and received and overall 8.78 score in her Mare Performance Test including a perfect 10/10 in jumping. She also won the 4-5 year old Mare Materiale at Dressage at Devon and was Region 1 USDFBC Mare Champion (in hand) which was awarded at Devon.

Album showing conformation, under saddle and jumping pictures:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150712008895615.710693.482976895614&type=3

We plan two 2012 breedings for Radiance HVH with Embryo Transfer so she can remain in performance training. In our breeding program we critically assess the breeding strengths and opportunities for each of our Elite Mares and then critically assess the foals to determine if we retained the strengths and improved the opportunities.

Radiance’s strengths:

• [B]Presence:[/B] Exceptional presence and focus. She consistently performs much better in the show ring than schooling.
• [B]Gaits:[/B] Has a 9-10 walk with 7-8 trot in hand which improves to 8+ trot and canter under sadde. She consistely gets collective gait scores of 8-9 in dressage.
• [B]Freedom of Movement:[/B] Exceptional freedom in the shoulder and exceptional swing through her back
• [B]Jumping Capabilities:[/B] Scored a 10/10 jump at her Mare Performance Test. Beautiful bascule, lots of scope, knees to her chin, nice kick.
• [B]Conformation / Type:[/B] 8-9 Head, Neck saddle position, correct, refined type.

[B]Radiance's Improvement Opportunities: [/B]

• [B]Height:[/B] 16H, needs more height without losing refinement
• [B]Gaits:[/B] Needs more expression in knees and hocks.
• [B]Withers:[/B] Radiance's dam has a high, thin withers which needs more muscling. Radiance does not have this characteristic, but want to ensure we do not re-introduce to Radiance's line.

I would appreciate breeding recommendations (fresh or frozen) to produce exceptional dressage offspring. I am seeking stallions that resolve the improvement opportunities and further develop the positive qualities. Please also explain what you like best about the stallion. Thanks ! :)

[HVH]

One thing to add: In our breeding program we breed with the goal of producing Hanoverian athletes that would interest a professional and have temperaments that are suitable for an AA or YR. All of our broodmares are Elite Hanoverian Mares with exceptional temperament and we seek good temperament in the stallions as well. We handled every horse on our farm twice a day every day and every horse (even foals) have training goals for the week.

[not_again]

We are very pleased with our Dressage Royal offspring. He is VhW.

[back_in_the_saddle]

What about the impulsion and canter scores?

[HVH]

8 on impluson at MPT with 8’s on gaits under saddle. Canter is not specifically scored. Mare received 9 on collective gaits at 2 dressage shows.

[rodawn]

You could consider the F line - specifically some of the Florestan sons. They go quite nicely with Rubinstein and, a lot of times, improves the height via length of leg without making the horse heavy.

In Canada, Freestyle (Florestan x SPS Paloma) just was approved HanV. He produces height, superb temperament, athletically gifted, long-legged horses with elegant movement. Offspring have good use of well-applied hindquarters. A lot of his foals score premium and so do his mares. He has an approved stallion son under saddle getting a lot of attention. His semen is of excellent quality, motility and fertility, both fresh and frozen. It is said of Freestyle, if he can’t get a mare pregnant, then she isn’t going to get pregnant. I just lost a Freestyle colt this year that devastated me, because he was exceptional in every way. My mare is not tall at 15.3, but this colt was easily going to be much, much taller than she. Owner of Freestyle is lovely to work with, very accommodating and will work with ET.

Florencio just recently had some rather gorgeous foals comes through that were very well-received by inspection judges in Europe. He brings on rideability through the Pik influence, but the doubling up of Weltmeyer some recent generations back might be too much for your liking.

His son, Floriscount, also had some exceptional foals come through this year. Well received at foal inspections in Europe. Both are approved HanV. Adding the extra generation out from Weltmeyer may make this cross more comfortable for you.

I’ve seen some crosses with R/W with Hohenstein that were very well-received. Since your mare has Weltmeyer, this could be a VERY interesting and well-received cross as Hohenstein tends to do exceptionally nicely with the Weltmeyer lineage. This particular stallion is on my short list for my White Star mare since she is also a maiden and he is very well proven.

[back_in_the_saddle]

I would only use an older, proven, multiple high level producing stallion on a maiden mare. With a proven stallion you know what he passes on with greater certainty than a younger stallion. As she gets older and her breeding consistancy becomes apparent, you can then make a better decision regarding whether to use young stallions or not.

[Donella]

Hmm…sounds like an amazing mare so many possible choices for her!

If stud fee is not an issue I would take a mare of this quality to Totilas! No, he is not proven in the breeding shed, but he has everything you want and there is so little to fault in the mare that to me it seems there isn’t much to risk in this cross. You are very likely to get something incredible (and incredibly marketable).

[dressurpferd01]

[QUOTE=Donella;5919281]
Hmm…sounds like an amazing mare so many possible choices for her!

If stud fee is not an issue I would take a mare of this quality to Totilas! No, he is not proven in the breeding shed, but he has everything you want and there is so little to fault in the mare that to me it seems there isn’t much to risk in this cross. You are very likely to get something incredible (and incredibly marketable).[/QUOTE]

Unproven stallion to an unproven mare??? Um, nope.

And HVH, the canter IS scored in the MPT.

[Pcostx]

Why add more height? At 4 she may grow more. I would think a 16-16.1 horse would be a welcome change for horse shoppers.

IMO, most everything available is too darn tall! I looked FOREVER to find my small Hanoverian mare.

[not_again]

This just in about a DR grandson:
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/10/26/era-dancing-hit-wins-danish-35-day-stallion-performance-testing
DR is the sire of Uno Don Diego.

Damsey is also by DR, as is world champion Desperado OLD.

[Donella]

Unproven stallion to an unproven mare??? Um, nope.

Unproven in what way? Totilas has nothing to prove in terms of what the mare owner is looking for. He comes from a productive mareline and his first crop looks promising. The mare is outstanding and I am assuming that the mare owner is also familiar with her mare’s family and what it tends to produce.

Do we know if either will produce excellent dressage horses? No, we don’t, but considering the fact that both of them are far above average, I think the risk is pretty minimal that you are going to end up with something you will want to hide behind the barn.

[dressurpferd01]

[QUOTE=Donella;5921241]
Unproven stallion to an unproven mare??? Um, nope.

Unproven in what way? Totilas has nothing to prove in terms of what the mare owner is looking for. He comes from a productive mareline and his first crop looks promising. The mare is outstanding and I am assuming that the mare owner is also familiar with her mare’s family and what it tends to produce.

Do we know if either will produce excellent dressage horses? No, we don’t, but considering the fact that both of them are far above average, I think the risk is pretty minimal that you are going to end up with something you will want to hide behind the barn.[/QUOTE]

Totilas is utterly unproven as a sire, that fact is indisputable. What you see in the show ring WRT his gaits, is NOT what you’re going to see from a foal. Those gaits were created by Gal, as you can see by how he moved as a younger horse. And yes, I’m aware horses gaits do change over time, but not to the extent that his did. That trot was artificial and not reproducible via breeding.

As to the mare, she unproven at all but the lowest levels of dressage. Should she produce well? Yes, judging by her breeding and inspection scores, but is still unproven in sport.

[HVH]

I find all the comments interesting, thanks. I appreciate the recommendations in stallions and hoping for more discussion on which stallions you would consider if the mare were yours.

Couple of updates on the Radiance HVH & our breeding program:

• Mare's Canter Score was an 8 in MPT which is consistent in what she has gotten in her dressage tests. Her best gait is her walk which consistently scores 9.
• We have her dam and several full and half siblings. All but one have placed in USDFBC HOY and are now doing well under saddle. Breeding the dam twice with Embryo Transfer in 2012 because of the strength in the damline.
• Plan to breed Radiance twice with ET in 2012 and will keep her in performance training.
• From a 'risk' perspective, we plan to breed Radiance and dam each to one 'proven' stallion and would consider anther breeding to a 'new' stallion. We try our best to investigate the stallions sire and damline of the newer stallions and review licensing scores of the prospective stallion plus the performance statistics of the stallions licensed brothers. We are not concerned that Radiance will produce a 'dud', but we would like to maximize the potential of her offspring.
• From a height perspective, we like our mares to be in the 16.2H range and like them to produce youngsters that are in the mid- to upper 16H range. We find that horses in the 16.1-17H range are much easier to sell than horses 16H or smaller. Although bigger horses sell, we are concerned about the joints of really big horses over time.

Interesting about the manufactured gaits comments above. Radiance has tremendous freedom of movement and trainability..... I would be interested in seeing videos of Totilas as a very young horse. If you have any links, could you please send them privately so as not to interrupt this thread?

[Majestic_Gaits]

Lovely mare Annetta! Congrats on all her great success. Not sure if Schroeder (Sandro Hit x Escudo I) is proven enough for you as his oldest are 3 this year but he is already in the top rankings. Currently #14 in the Dressage sporthorse dressage sires in the country. Consistently throwing height, temperament and really good strong withers. You wont lose refinement or the jumping talent. He loves to work and get attention. He finished off the year at 3rd level and my rider Makenzi and him are now learning the upper levels together. Definately breeding for the amateur rider with upper level talent. My goals too!

Kathy

[back_in_the_saddle]

Desperados although she has the W in there already. So check out the pros/cons of that linebreeding. You can’t argue about the success of DeNiro offspring and this stallion is taller at 16.3 and is also producing successful offspring.

I tried last year and did get a black dot. Semen was 25% mobility per the vet. Mare wasn’t cycling just right but we tried anyway and probably should have waited.

http://www.gestuet-sprehe.de/en/stallions/desperados/

There is/was a video of Totilas when he was 5 out there and he was a nice solid moving horse but nothing spectacular. IMO

[mikali]

Trying not to derail the thread but since I had the links handy, here are various videos of Totilas 2005 2008 2010 2011

[horsechica58]

mikali- The video from 2007 is not Totilas, it is his sire Gribaldi

[mikali]

[QUOTE=horsechica58;5922043]
mikali- The video from 2007 is not Totilas, it is his sire Gribaldi :)[/QUOTE]

Sorry, my mistake - meant to post this one I’ll go back and correct that.

[Donella]

Totilas is utterly unproven as a sire, that fact is indisputable. What you see in the show ring WRT his gaits, is NOT what you’re going to see from a foal. Those gaits were created by Gal, as you can see by how he moved as a younger horse. And yes, I’m aware horses gaits do change over time, but not to the extent that his did. That trot was artificial and not reproducible via breeding

I just totally disagree. Totilas is a naturally gifted horse whose talents were brought out and highlighted by a gifted trainer/rider. I realize that he did not trot like that as a foal…no international GP horse trots the same as it does as a foal. When a horse is totally through (this is where rider comes in) they can use their body’s in ways that they don’t when they are not under saddle (or not being ridden super through). But that ability has to be within the horse naturally, from birth. He has to have an inate ability (temperament/gaits/ridability ect) to be able to use his body in that way ie be pushed through to that extent and to that effect. Clearly he does (and I believe the qualities that allow that are genetic because they are a sum of his physical and mental qualities).

Anyways, if you honestly believe that a Totilas x OP mare cross is high risk then I can’t imagine what you must think of 99 percent of the breedings that are concieved of here on COTH from mares and stallions that are often of lower quality.