Selevit Injectable

[OutsidersOpinion]

I am still DUMBFOUNDED by the people here arguing that a horse jumping 1.60 shouldn’t be getting legend or adequan. That is honestly the BARE MINIMUM of what horses jumping at that level should be receiving.

I can understand people not understanding why traumeel or arnica is used as it is not common to give unless in FEI.

Selevit, I can agree with not being a good choice.

I would love to know at what level people are competing at whose horses don’t get any medications or anything at shows. And how sound their horses are.

At the very minimum, Legend and Adequan are doing preventative work for joints that are being stressed. Not because the horse is lame or unqualified to jump that big, but because it is HARD WORK.

Some people seem to be looking at this like the horse was asked to go for a “fun 1 mile race” when in reality it was asked to do more like an Iron Man triathlon. There is a huge difference in what these horses are being asked to do compared to the average horse jumping 2’6-3’6 at an A show. They have to be maintained differently because of it.

Medication is not a bad thing.

[Ponyplusaninch]

I don’t see anyone on this thread saying these upper level horses shouldn’t be gettin legend or adequan. Please feel free to correct me if there is a post that explicitly states that.

What people ARE pointing out is the hypocrisy that USEF can administer pretty much whatever sketchy concoction they want without prior auth from the owner for the national team (in this case, Selevit is the real sketchy thing here). And yet they come after USEF members for less mundane items (Depo, PP, other NSAIDs to help creaky horses).

I am all in favor of adequan and legend. I am all in favor of better living through reactive and proactive chemistry to help horses have healthy, pain-free careers so that they have a purpose in a life and stay in good homes (vs being unsafe and/or unusable and ending up in bad situations).

I am not a huge fan of tossing the kitchen sink at horses when it comes to medications. I am not a huge fan of administering medication that masks issues that could pose harm to human or horse later on.
Especially if one of those drugs (like Selevit) has highly questionable data out there that shows significant risk of death.

[OutsidersOpinion]

@paw

This whole thing is BS. Horses should not be on “routine” injections, especially during competition.

This is what i was referring to along with several others who have said the same @Ponyplusaninch

I agree USEF banning depo etc is not helping the sport. There are several comments on this very long thread stating horses shouldnt need any kind of help, no bute/banamine etc. They were also stating that they shouldn’t need legend/adequan and that it was potentially “masking soundness issues”; there was a whole debate on off label use of adequan and legend above as well.

[jvanrens]

@OutsidersOpinion

@paw

This whole thing is BS. Horses should not be on “routine” injections, especially during competition.

This is what i was referring to along with several others who have said the same @Ponyplusaninch

I agree USEF banning depo etc is not helping the sport. There are several comments on this very long thread stating horses shouldnt need any kind of help, no bute/banamine etc. They were also stating that they shouldn’t need legend/adequan and that it was potentially “masking soundness issues”; there was a whole debate on off label use of adequan and legend above as well.

Maybe we’ve been reading a different thread, but what I recall, is that most people have a problem with the cocktail that was given to this poor horse, especially the massive dose of selenium, which if memory serves, would only have been appropriate if he was a 2K lb horse with a huge deficiency. People just questioned the Legend and Adequan being given at the same time as all the other things.

Even then the “team vet” should have done better and run it past the horse’s owner who the groom reach quickly, but not quickly enough to stop it due the USEFs release form. Lucky her, she got there on time to watch the horse she bred and raised DIE. And why wasn’t the team vet keeping an eye on things in case there was an adverse reaction to said cocktail?

[Demerara_Stables]

@OutsidersOpinion

I agree USEF banning depo etc is not helping the sport. There are several comments on this very long thread stating horses shouldnt need any kind of help, no bute/banamine etc. They were also stating that they shouldn’t need legend/adequan and that it was potentially “masking soundness issues”; there was a whole debate on off label use of adequan and legend above as well.

I think there’s a difference between drugs being used off label for physical maintenance (ie more regular Adequan/legend than the label calls for), and drugs being used to alter a horse’s behavior. IMO, there is never any place for any substance that alters a horse’s behavior, but there can be a lot of places for things that keep our horses comfortable and things that actively prevent wear and tear.

[Angela_Freda]

@OutsidersOpinion

I am still DUMBFOUNDED by the people here arguing that a horse jumping 1.60 shouldn’t be getting legend or adequan. That is honestly the BARE MINIMUM of what horses jumping at that level should be receiving.

I can understand people not understanding why traumeel or arnica is used as it is not common to give unless in FEI.

Selevit, I can agree with not being a good choice.

I would love to know at what level people are competing at whose horses don’t get any medications or anything at shows. And how sound their horses are.

At the very minimum, Legend and Adequan are doing preventative work for joints that are being stressed. Not because the horse is lame or unqualified to jump that big, but because it is HARD WORK.

Some people seem to be looking at this like the horse was asked to go for a “fun 1 mile race” when in reality it was asked to do more like an Iron Man triathlon. There is a huge difference in what these horses are being asked to do compared to the average horse jumping 2’6-3’6 at an A show. They have to be maintained differently because of it.

Medication is not a bad thing.

I’m dumbfounded that’s how you read the comments here.

[Angela_Freda]

@OutsidersOpinion

There are several comments on this very long thread stating horses shouldnt need any kind of help, no bute/banamine etc. They were also stating that they shouldn’t need legend/adequan and that it was potentially “masking soundness issues”;

Then respond to them.
.

[Ghazzu]

@2bayboys

he adult ammy can’t have her gelding on depo

It is, IMHO, unethical to use behavior modifying pharmaceuticals to produce the desired demeanor in the showring.
Whether that is local horsemen’s association or FEI.

[Simkie]

@Amberley

You seem to imply that we peons don’t understand Traumeel and that only FEI people do. It’s homeopathic ffs, it’s not real medicine.

Traumeel is herbal, despite being labeled as homeopathy. But it does contain real actual ingredients, rather than the “vibration” or whatever of non existent ingredients that homeopathic stuff does.

I really don’t get why it’s labeled as homeopathy. Maybe the labeling rules are different in Germany, where it’s made…?

[2bayboys]

@Ghazzu

@2bayboys

he adult ammy can’t have her gelding on depo

It is, IMHO, unethical to use behavior modifying pharmaceuticals to produce the desired demeanor in the showring.
Whether that is local horsemen’s association or FEI.

I’m not disagreeing with you there, but if you remember USEF banned depo not because of its effects on demeanor but because of its risks. Excerpt from the press release from USEF at the time:

On October 22, 2019, following reports of equine fatalities and anaphylaxis related to the use of MPA, USEF’s MPA Panel met to further analyze the use of MPA in horses competing at USEF-licensed competitions. The Panel reviewed a recent petition by numerous veterinarians requesting that USEF ban the use of MPA which was supported by documentation citing 23 fatalities associated with MPA use over the last three years, research on the efficacy of the substance, and the results from the collection of MPA medication reports."

Which makes this case of apparent anaphylaxis related to the injection of Selevit even more egregious.

[Demerara_Stables]

@2bayboys

but if you remember USEF banned depo not because of its effects on demeanor but because of its risks.

Yes that’s true, but there’s still no reason to ever use it to alter behavior. Comparing it to bute/banamine (edit to correct the meds mentioned in the previous comment I’m referencing) and saying they both should be banned is apples to oranges.

[2bayboys]

I do not believe Adequan/Legend should be banned.

[Simkie]

@Amberley

All homeopathic products list “real” ingredients, at incredibly diluted concentrations. They are 99.99999999% carrier product, some are 100% carrier product. Testing has shown over and over that many homeopathic products contain zero molecules of whatever active ingredient they advertise.

This is my point. Traumeel contains actual amounts of herbal stuff.

For example, 90 mg of milfoil, 5 mg of monkshood, 1.5 mg of arnica, 5 mg of deadly nightshade etc in the cream.

It’s not homeopathic. I don’t get why or how it’s labeled as homeopathic.

[Ghazzu]

@2bayboys

USEF banned depo not because of its effects on demeanor but because of its risks.

I’ll take what I can get wrt the official reasoning for it.
Documentable danger is more tangible than the intent of the owner/trainer in using the stuff.

[axl]

Simkie said

@Simkie

5 mg of deadly nightshade etc in the cream.

No dog in this fight, Amberley, I thought your previous post was very instructive.

[Ghazzu]

@Simkie

This is my point. Traumeel contains actual amounts of herbal stuff.

For example, 90 mg of milfoil, 5 mg of monkshood, 1.5 mg of arnica, 5 mg of deadly nightshade etc in the cream.

It’s not homeopathic. I don’t get why or how it’s labeled as homeopathic.

The cream and the injectable form are not identical.
The injectable:
.
“Injection Solution: Each 2.0 ml ampule contains as active ingredients: Hepar sulphuris calcareum 8X 200.0 µl; Belladonna 3X 20.0 µl; Calendula officinalis 3X 20.0 µl; Chamomilla 4X 20.0 µl; Millefolium 4X 20.0 µl; Aconitum napellus 3X 12.0 µl; Bellis perennis 3X 10.0 µl; Hypericum perforatum 3X 6.0 µl; Echinacea angustifolia 3X 5.0 µl; Echinacea purpurea 3X 5.0 µl; Arnica montana, radix 2X 2.0 µl; Hamamelis virginiana 2X 2.0 µl; Symphytum officinale 6X 2.0 µl. Each 2.0 ml ampule contains as an inactive ingredient: Sterile isotonic sodium chloride solution.”

The designations 3X, 4X, etc. refer to the dilution of the particular ingredient.
If you’re interested in the minutae, here’s Wikipedia.

[Simkie]

@Amberley

No it does not. Look again. The “x” in front of the ingredients is how much it’s diluted.

Do you really think people are selling a produce with 5mg of deadly nightshade in it to inject? No they are not.

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085232/

Yes, there is 5 mg of deadly nightshade in the ointment? I don’t understand how traumeel is considered homeopathic (which all of the preps–ointment, tablets and injectible–are labeled.)

[Simkie]

@Amberley

That contradicts their own labeling which is what I posted above.

It’s their (the people who make traumeel) paper

[Simkie]

So:

1X in homeopathy means:

Homeopathy.pdf

“A 1x potency is created by mixing 1 part of the mother tincture and 9 parts alcohol or distilled water”

The label info @Amberley posted states:

@Amberley

*Belladonna 1X 0.050g

Diluting 0.05 g of belladonna with 9 parts dilutant and then using 1 part of that provides 0.005 g belladonna–or 5 mg belladonna.

Let’s check the others:

Aconitum napellus 1X 0.050g = 0.005 g or 5 mg, yep, matches what was published in the paper
Arnica montana, radix 3X 1.50g = 0.0015 g or 1.5 mg, yep, matches (3X is 3 serial 1:9 dilutions)
Bellis perennis MT 0.100g = 0.1 g or 100 mg, yep matches (MT is mother tincture, it’s undiluted)
Calendula officinalis MT 0.450g = 0.45 g or 450 mg, yep, matches…

Etc etc.

So both the Traumeel ingredient list, AND the paper are correct. The paper has the non-woo measurements.

And this is why I don’t understand why Traumeel is homeopathic. It has real quantities of stuff in it

[Ghazzu]

@Simkie

I don’t understand why Traumeel is homeopathic. It has real quantities of stuff in it

It is entirely possible to have a homeopathic remedy which contains measurable quantities of a substance.
There is nothing in the homeopathic system that prohibits it.
Paradoxically, the higher the amount of actual substance, the lower the homeopathic “potency”.

Here’s a review paper on the topic.