Selevit Injectable

[2bayboys]

I do not believe Adequan/Legend should be banned.

[Simkie]

@Amberley

All homeopathic products list “real” ingredients, at incredibly diluted concentrations. They are 99.99999999% carrier product, some are 100% carrier product. Testing has shown over and over that many homeopathic products contain zero molecules of whatever active ingredient they advertise.

This is my point. Traumeel contains actual amounts of herbal stuff.

For example, 90 mg of milfoil, 5 mg of monkshood, 1.5 mg of arnica, 5 mg of deadly nightshade etc in the cream.

It’s not homeopathic. I don’t get why or how it’s labeled as homeopathic.

[Ghazzu]

@2bayboys

USEF banned depo not because of its effects on demeanor but because of its risks.

I’ll take what I can get wrt the official reasoning for it.
Documentable danger is more tangible than the intent of the owner/trainer in using the stuff.

[Amberley]

No it does not. Look again. The “x” in front of the ingredients is how much it’s diluted.

Do you really think people are selling a produce with 5mg of deadly nightshade in it to inject? No they are not.

[axl]

Simkie said

@Simkie

5 mg of deadly nightshade etc in the cream.

No dog in this fight, Amberley, I thought your previous post was very instructive.

[Ghazzu]

@Simkie

This is my point. Traumeel contains actual amounts of herbal stuff.

For example, 90 mg of milfoil, 5 mg of monkshood, 1.5 mg of arnica, 5 mg of deadly nightshade etc in the cream.

It’s not homeopathic. I don’t get why or how it’s labeled as homeopathic.

The cream and the injectable form are not identical.
The injectable:
.
“Injection Solution: Each 2.0 ml ampule contains as active ingredients: Hepar sulphuris calcareum 8X 200.0 µl; Belladonna 3X 20.0 µl; Calendula officinalis 3X 20.0 µl; Chamomilla 4X 20.0 µl; Millefolium 4X 20.0 µl; Aconitum napellus 3X 12.0 µl; Bellis perennis 3X 10.0 µl; Hypericum perforatum 3X 6.0 µl; Echinacea angustifolia 3X 5.0 µl; Echinacea purpurea 3X 5.0 µl; Arnica montana, radix 2X 2.0 µl; Hamamelis virginiana 2X 2.0 µl; Symphytum officinale 6X 2.0 µl. Each 2.0 ml ampule contains as an inactive ingredient: Sterile isotonic sodium chloride solution.”

The designations 3X, 4X, etc. refer to the dilution of the particular ingredient.
If you’re interested in the minutae, here’s Wikipedia.

[Amberley]

And this is the cream.

Active ingredients: Each 100 g contains:

*Aconitum napellus 1X 0.050g; *Arnica montana, radix 3X 1.50g; *Belladonna 1X 0.050g; *Bellis perennis MT 0.100g; *Calendula officinalis MT 0.450g; *Chamomilla MT 0.150g; *Echinacea MT 0.150g; *Echinacea purpurea MT 0.150g; *Hamamelis virginiana MT 0.450g; Hepar sulphuris calcareum 6X 0.025g; *Hypericum perforatum 6X 0.090g; Mercurius solubilis 6X 0.040g; *Millefolium MT 0.090g; *Symphytum officinale 4X 0.100g.

[Simkie]

@Amberley

No it does not. Look again. The “x” in front of the ingredients is how much it’s diluted.

Do you really think people are selling a produce with 5mg of deadly nightshade in it to inject? No they are not.

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085232/

Yes, there is 5 mg of deadly nightshade in the ointment? I don’t understand how traumeel is considered homeopathic (which all of the preps–ointment, tablets and injectible–are labeled.)

[Amberley]

That contradicts their own labeling which is what I posted above. And I very much doubt that is correct as that much belladonna in a product would be a serious liability.

ETA this is the topical. It also does not say what the preparation of belladonna is but this seems foolish given that one berry can kill a child.

[Simkie]

@Amberley

That contradicts their own labeling which is what I posted above.

It’s their (the people who make traumeel) paper

[Simkie]

So:

1X in homeopathy means:

Homeopathy.pdf

“A 1x potency is created by mixing 1 part of the mother tincture and 9 parts alcohol or distilled water”

The label info @Amberley posted states:

@Amberley

*Belladonna 1X 0.050g

Diluting 0.05 g of belladonna with 9 parts dilutant and then using 1 part of that provides 0.005 g belladonna–or 5 mg belladonna.

Let’s check the others:

Aconitum napellus 1X 0.050g = 0.005 g or 5 mg, yep, matches what was published in the paper
Arnica montana, radix 3X 1.50g = 0.0015 g or 1.5 mg, yep, matches (3X is 3 serial 1:9 dilutions)
Bellis perennis MT 0.100g = 0.1 g or 100 mg, yep matches (MT is mother tincture, it’s undiluted)
Calendula officinalis MT 0.450g = 0.45 g or 450 mg, yep, matches…

Etc etc.

So both the Traumeel ingredient list, AND the paper are correct. The paper has the non-woo measurements.

And this is why I don’t understand why Traumeel is homeopathic. It has real quantities of stuff in it

[Ghazzu]

@Simkie

I don’t understand why Traumeel is homeopathic. It has real quantities of stuff in it

It is entirely possible to have a homeopathic remedy which contains measurable quantities of a substance.
There is nothing in the homeopathic system that prohibits it.
Paradoxically, the higher the amount of actual substance, the lower the homeopathic “potency”.

Here’s a review paper on the topic.

[Simkie]

@Ghazzu

It is entirely possible to have a homeopathic remedy which contains measurable quantities of a substance.
There is nothing in the homeopathic system that prohibits it.

Ah, see this is what I’ve been missing. I thought homeopathy was defined by it’s lack of “stuff” and dilution down to nothing. What makes something homeopathic vs herbal, then? Just how the manufacturer defines it…?

@Ghazzu

Paradoxically, the higher the amount of actual substance, the lower the homeopathic “potency”.

This is mentioned in that pdf I linked above, too, and it made me laugh

[Ghazzu]

@Simkie

What makes something homeopathic vs herbal, then?

There is disagreement amongst homeopathic practitioners on this subject.
PLOS had a piece on it.

[Simkie]

Man, that just makes IV use of stuff like this even scarier. People are going into it thinking it’s saline with ~~vibrations~~ and they’re injecting belladonna. Tiny amounts, but still. Eeek.

[fivestrideline]

@Simkie

Man, that just makes IV use of stuff like this even scarier. People are going into it thinking it’s saline with ~ ~vibrations~ ~ and they’re injecting belladonna. Tiny amounts, but still. Eeek.

That is terrifying!

[SusanO]

Nobody is arguing that horses should not be getting legend or adequan. The argument is that this concoction has no scientific merit at this point. Maybe it works but there have been no scientific, peer reviewed studies that show that injections of legend and/or adequan at this frequency is actually beneficial. Not to mention the other substances in the shot that have even less testing/ research. Vets should emulate doctors and “First do no harm”. I don’t have horses anywhere that valuable but I would be up in arms if they were getting some voodoo IV concoction with no proven merit. If it actually does help the horse then create studies and test the hypothesis before administering it because of some anecdotal (I suppose) evidence.

[Ghazzu]

@Simkie

they’re injecting belladonna. Tiny amounts, but still. Eeek.

Atropine is a belladonna derivative used with some frequency in allopathic medicine.

[Simkie]

@Ghazzu

Atropine is a belladonna derivative used with some frequency in allopathic medicine.

A lot of these ingredients have use in some way in allopathic medicine, right?

But you know what you’re getting when you pull the atropine off the shelf and there’s more oversight that what’s on the label is actually what’s in the bottle

I think a lot of people think about homeopathy the way I (and @Amberley) did–that it’s saline and woo. I’m surprised that there’s so much overlap between homeopathy and herbal medicine, and don’t think the homeopathy guys make that clear at all. Just the ingredient list on the traumeel is a great example–the dilution factor is not at all transparent unless one gets curious & digs into what it means.

Would traumeel be an approved by the FEI med if it were labeled herbal rather than homeopathic? Or if the label gave actual amounts instead of dilution factor?

[TBROCKS]

Adenosine? Adenosine in human medicine is a cardiac med given for arrythmia. Fun fact: it stops your heart momentarily when given IV push.