Self mutalation/stall walking,,but not ulcers..Long sorry

[spook1]

Hello,
Backstory…horse( 4 yr old gelding) was purchased last year as a show horse with 4 months under saddle training.was fully vetted with full X-rays was clean. But noticed a healing “cut” on his flank and was told he most have done something outside but was very minor so no more thought was giving. When i test rode the horse he was like a old seasoned horse. I only got 1 ride as I flew out to see him. Get him shipped home to my trainers barn and seems way more nervous then I remember him being. A month later he is stall walking, weaving and when turned out walks/runs the fence with or without a buddy, AND biting flanks,. however all that said was very good to ride no bad behavior at all. Then he started biting his flanks…badly but not colicky. Had the vet out and was decided to scope him for ulcers…NOPE looks good. I take him to a schooling show very low key type place. Well he is stall walking, pawing, weaving you name it. Yes he had hay in front of him. So i hand walk him all over the place and he is like Joe cool…nothing phases him. Back to the stall same behavior. Tack him up and go to the main ring to school and he is perfect seemingly calm rode really well no issues. Go untack give him a bath and once the stall it all starts again. I tie him up and he eventually calms down. I untie him feed him dinner he eats well and was happy to have food…then he colics. Vets comes out treats him and I take him home as by this time I am a mental wreck with all of this and frankly, with that last 7 months of this crap.

So this is what’s been done in the last 9 months since Ive owned him. Fully vetted with X-rays, Scoped for ulcers, teeth done, chiropractic , blood work with testosterone level, play with the turn out vs no turn out with and with out a buddy, left alone for a month ( no training/riding), moved stalls. He eats very well ,on good hay, poops and pees regularly, no under saddle issues or naughtiness.

So what would you all suggest? what am I missing? Is this behavioral could he hav ulcers anyway and should I just treat him “in case” he has them? I am at a loss. He is not the horse I remember when I tested him. He was so quite in the stall and so good to ride…again at a loss.

Thank you
Suggestions appreciated and thank you for allowing me to vent…

[endlessclimb]

How much turnout was he getting at the original place before you bought him? Does anything in particular seem to start it? Noise or movement, or both?

I’d start by putting things in the stall to try and “snap him out of it”. Make his stall walking hard. If that doesn’t seem to help, I’d tie him in the stall when he’s in one of his episodes, with really nice hay and water within reach. He stands until he relaxes, doesn’t matter how long it takes. Then untie and see what you’ve got.

You could try some ace or other sedative for turnout, and see if he can learn a new way of “being”.

Some horses are just bad like this. My late mare could be problematic. Consistent tying when she started up a fit all but cured it - she would only occasionally do it at shows, and I would tie her there, too. Same as yours - no ulcers, cool as a cucumber when out handwalking - it wasn’t fear, it was anxiety.

This might raise some hackles, but I also hobble broke her and she would frequently stand hobbled. It helped her learn that moving around frantically was not the answer. You could see her almost relax when they went on, like she could finally let go of the need to move because the option was gone.

[beowulf]

OP, it sounds like you have an internalizer. They sometimes do not handle changes in routine well. I would stop tweaking bits of his management, especially in the companionship department. All that change, while intended to isolate what his trigger is, may have adverse effects. Pick one thing and stick to it. In your shoes I would pick as much turnout (ideally 24/7) with a buddy as possible. He clearly doesn’t like being stalled.

Stall walking and mutilation are stereotypies often rooted in isolation. Sometimes a turnout buddy is not the right buddy for the horse. Maybe they’re too aggressive and chase them off resources. Sometimes horses don’t jive. Sometimes the pasture is buggy or there aren’t enough resources in it, leading to competition between horses.

Many people think their horse is pacing their pasture because they want to come inside. What they don’t realize is the barn’s management often has valuable resources in the stall that aren’t available in a pasture: a quiet place, hay, grain. The horses are conditioned to expect these needs in the stall — but it doesn’t mean in any shape or form that the stall is good for them or that they even desire it. If you put these needs out in their pastures, they will stop seeking the barn. Most horses are incredibly food motivated: they don’t want the stall, they want the grain that comes shortly after they’re brought in.

He’s told you he doesn’t like being in a stall. It’s up to you to listen. If he were my horse I’d find him one GOOD buddy and chuck him out 24/7. If I had to I’d even consider a goat.

[RunAmuckDog]

@endlessclimb

This might raise some hackles, but I also hobble broke her and she would frequently stand hobbled. It helped her learn that moving around frantically was not the answer. You could see her almost relax when they went on, like she could finally let go of the need to move because the option was gone.

I agree that some beings are more dependent/insecure than others. They almost “need” someone or something else to take the weight of the world off their shoulders/minds.

To expand on this: since it was mentioned that he displayed stress behaviors in both the stall and turnout; a possible option may be the use of a tie/standing stall. For some horses, especially those that seem to internalize, it can be like a security blanket. There are some good threads to be found in the forum regarding size & use.

I realize that this is the complete opposite of the usual advice of constant turnout, however, it seems that this was already tried without success?

Have you asked the prior owners about his previous setup? Was it a busy or laid back barn?

Did he display ANY of these behaviors with them? Depending on how forthcoming they are, perhaps they will have some insight to give you.

[SusanO]

I had an Arabian that did this. A huge part of his behavior was inherited sterotypical behavior. I was keeping him at the Arabian farm that sold him to me. They did not breed him. In fact there were three horses there by the same sire that did this. All from different dam lines and all born in different places. The only thing they had in common was the sire and other horses from the mothers by different stallions were not like this. He was a major internalizer of stress and everything stressed him. Being inside a stall stressed him. In fact if you closed his window he would pace for days even if you opened it up again. Being in the pasture stressed him. He would pace at the gate or along the fence line. If it was raining he was stressed. If the sun was shining he was stressed. Being in a small herd stressed him. Being out alone stressed him. And despite being gelded he still thought he was a stallion. Until one day I turned him out with my large WB gelding that taught him he was no longer a herd sire but a member of the bachelor herd. That did relieve some of his stress.

He was a stallion when I bought him and I was stupid and didn’t geld him until he was four. Gelding him took care of some of the biting himself issues but he would stand on the cross ties and try to bite his front legs like two colts do when they are sparring in the pasture. I am sure his neurons didn’t all fire at the same time. It was a HUGE lesson in my horse owning life that you can change some things about horses but you can’t change their basic temperament. I am very careful to look closely at behaviors because I don’t ever want to deal with this kind of horse again.

And yes - sometimes when he would be furiously pacing his stall I would tie him and that would settle him down. I have heard about “abuse” causing self mutilating behaviors but I am more convinced it is an inherited stereotypic behavior that is activated by stress and these horses have a very low stress threshold. So anything you can do to alleviate stress will help him but it will take a lot of work on your part to figure out what his stressors are. For some horses - they are happier being in a small quiet barn. Some prefer a busier environment. Some are too claustrophobic to live in a stall and some hate being out 24/7, especially if the bugs are bad. For sure ask his former owners.

[CanteringCarrot]

Ooh, I have a lot to add to this thread. I have a “reformed” self mutilator. Short on time at the moment, but I’ll be back later!

[starsandsun]

It sounds like management may be a challenge, but I would come at this from a pain perspective and see if it makes a difference. My thoughts around the biting are that he may be trying to relief gut pain (small intestine, colon). I only offer that up as my horse was persistently rubbing and turns out he has had significant inflammation/pain that we are now treating, and the behavior has gone away.

So I would maybe treat for ulcers (as secondary) and intestinal pain (primary) and see what happens. If it were my horse, I’d think about putting him on sucralfate and see if he gets any better. I suggest sucralfate over misoprostol and/or ulcerguard as it has a longer ‘reach’ through their digestive system. If you were going to do any more diagnostics, I would do an abdominal ultrasound and look for any thickening. If you really wanted to go next level I would get tissue sample from colon and duodenum for biopsy.

In my case, the sucralfate is a support medication and he is on prednisolone to heal gut inflammation, but that’s a big step and maybe you’d just want to see how he responds to sucralfate and see if you can get any insight from that.

[StormyDay]

I probably would treat for ulcers as he’s got a lot of the symptoms.

I’d also try 24/7 turnout. Preferably with a group of horses. The reason for a group is sometimes when it’s just one horse, the nervous/pacing horse will set off his Buddy too, and the buddy will either end up encouraging the behavior by joining in or will act negatively towards the other horse because that horse is acting weird. With a group, the group will usually just do their own thing and when the nervous horse chills out he can join the herd more easily.

Also, IME, it takes about a year for a horse to totally acclimate to their new person/surroundings. So after a while of 24/7 turnout, he may chill enough that he can go to shows and be stalled and it won’t be a big deal to him anymore

[SMF11]

Another vote for 24/7 turnout, and with a small group of compatible horses.

[trubandloki]

Did his feed change when you moved him to where you board him?

[Alterrain]

My trainer has a GP horse that walks the stall AND grabs his stifles! They tie him up and he wears a fly sheet.

[EmilyM]

Have you tried trazadone? I wonder if that would relieve his anxiety. If it works you could start to taper and see if he stays ok.

Or could he have a small companion in his stall like a goat or something?

[Warmblood1]

I agree with Susan, after 7 months of this it may be that the horse is hardwired this way. If you saw him one time before purchasing, I would wonder if this has been an ongoing issue for the previous owner and if maybe sedation was used when you evaluated him.

I also think Ruckamuck’s suggestion of a tie stall could potentially work to help break the habit if done consistently and long enough. It sounds as though he need consistency in management, for sure. I’m sorry OP, this would be very aggravating to deal with.

[Turntable]

I believe this horse may feel more comfortable and able to relax when turned out in a group. The fact he is good in hand and under saddle may mean he can only relax when he’s with a leader type figure that tells him to relax. The buddy he’s with now may be too passive, meaning he’s the leader, or he may not feel safe in such a small herd. You may also consider hiring an animal behaviorist, they are often able to resolve problems like this.

[spook1]

Hi
Thank you all!!

Some more info… past owners say they never noticed any flank biting (albeit we seen evidence if this and told must have done something in the pasture but clearly in the same spot as he is biting) this was a huge barn and turn out ws limited also found he was gelded at 18 months. but now looking back they were very vague on details.But I can’t think that these behaviors weren’t present before I brought him and he suddenly started the walking/weaving and flank biting from the 8 hour transport especially when I seen evidence of the flank biting.

We tried the tough love turnout however after two solid weeks out he must have lost 200 lbs in spite of eating well with good hay and pasture. The pasture buddies were changed (neither were dominate and both very gentile souls) but we were trying anything. It all came to blows after about 17 days of 24 hour turn out that he was going to waste away, go lame from the 24 hour fence walking and slamming gate that it wasn’t worth it. He is currently turned out about 4 hours daily and only ridden 2 or 3 days. We have started tieing him as yes that does help a bit. If he was bad under saddle or girthy or cranky I would say we missed something in the scope but he is great to ride and groom no issues at all and he is not spooky at all. But the stall walking/weaving is maddening!

I agree with treating him anyway for ulcers. But is the a more economical treatment ( I was told it would be about 800 a month and that just out of budget? Is the Nexicum the same as what I can buy at a drug store if so what would the dosage be? Could he be shown on Trazadone? Im willing to try things. Again with vet troubleshooting its looking like its behavioral…grrrr
Thank you all I really appreciate the help and the ear!

[lenapesadie]

For the behavioral side, I’d suggest looking up Warwick Schiller. He has a series of videos where he demonstrates how he addresses “stereotypey” behavior like stall / fence walking. I think he may have the videos labeled as dealing with separation anxiety. I think your horse is good candidate for that type of work seeing as how he seems to settle a lot when you are handling him for grooming / riding. If I had a horse doing what you describe, I’d be subscribing to WS and following those videos to the letter.

There is a full thread here on COTH about Nexium including dosing parameters etc. If you search for Nexium in title with the advanced search feature it will come up.

Good luck with your horse.

[cayuse]

The self-injuring sounds like it’s from pain. This is a really long shot, but I would have him checked to see if he’s a cryptorchid and if he really was gelded.

[bingbingbing]

Since being ridden is his happy place and he needs limited turn out, can he be ridden more frequently than 2-3 days a week?

@spook1

Could he be shown on Trazadone?

I would forget about showing for the short-term goals and continue to look for things to help him settle. If trazadone works or something else illegal works, it is a place to start to help get him mentally happier. And you can work from there.

[spook1]

Hello
Yes, that was our second thought after ulcers, So we pulled blood for testosterone. On phyiscal exam he was non reactive to pupation but we are waiting on labs to come back.

[PaddockWood]

@spook1 For all of us who own mental messes, the fact your guy is happy under saddle and out and about with you is so good. I adopted a mental mess 6 yrs ago and what a journey. She’s mostly never been happy under saddle either. Or bareback for that matter. I’ve tried most everything.

Because of the flank biting…have you done a FEC? My new guy colic’d and I’d already sent in for a FEC and then I get the results… 2100. Yes, 2100. He also didn’t want to be groomed or touched and that has improved through a series of dewormings.

I also found a bad tooth and that was pulled. Did your dental exam involve a speculum and head lamp allowing a complete oral exam?

And we know a scope ONLY is an exam of the stomach (I also did a scope and we found NO ulcers - I was shocked). So yes, whatever you can so to reduce inflammation and test for other intestinal issues.

When is he calm other than under saddle? Is he happy while being groomed? Does he mind horses coming and going? When else does he display anxiety? Does he do the flank biting ONLY in his stall or is it anytime?

Oh, and what all is your feed program on him? What kind of hay and does your supply of hay last for a year? If so, how about testing and then balancing minerals? Getting magnesium in him might be worthwhile.