Self-policing is not working

This is contradictory. Pros and trainers who are around horses full time with years of experience can’t see lameness but a parent taking a weekend course will?

Anyways, have there been any actual facts provided by OP in this discussion? Anything other than their opinion, anecdotal experiences or hearsay?

Tons of opinions given regarding medication yet OP is not a medical professional that I’m aware of.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to base my show career off of OP’s opinions. I don’t expect anyone else to either. I think a lot of the ideas being proposed are going to drive people away and potentially kill the sport.

And for the love of God, 2.5 ml of dexamethasone is not going to provide adequate sedation. I give my CAT 0.5 mls.

Ps. I have ridden dressage my entire life. Therapeutic meds are absolutely given to dressage horses.

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93 of them are your own posts. Very wild.

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Nah, different “accent”. That one was too busy brownnosing himself his guru to look for imaginary needle pricks in horse veins.

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They could definitely watch a video. But a couple questions:

  1. If they were to spot a lame horse, why would they turn their own kid in like that? Especially if the goal is to compete and win.
  2. What about the parents that never attend a horse show? Over half the kids I know travel to and from shows with just a trainer or a chaperone. No parents.

I would bet a LOT of money on your average parent never turning in a lame horse.

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How many parents can’t even tell a canter lead (or gaits at all?)! No shame in that, but I can guarantee you could show my father a crosscantering 3/5 lame horse and he’d not be able to distinguish it from a trot. Ask him to watch yet another online training? He’s gonna grumble about it and then let it play in the background while he watches YouTube. You do not want him being in charge of whether you get to show or not.

This is very different from the ground jury at an event.

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Right?? I once asked my dad to film me in a flat class and he filmed the wrong kid the entire time! If he can’t even recognize his own kid on a horse how in the world would he be able to tell if a horse (let alone the one I’m riding) is lame???

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Hahaha exactly. I’ve owned three horses, all big plain chestnut geldings, and my dad sometimes would just film…. whatever. Grey pony? Sure that’s gotta be me. I’ve never ridden a grey pony in my life :laughing:

I would not trust random bystanders to judge lameness in any capacity. That’s what we have vets for - and more than that, it’s opening the door for the appearance of vindictive behavior (since us hunters are all terrible people who only care about winning at any cost :wink::wink:).

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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: This is so on point it’s ridiculous!!

Bingo, will stop adding to the click count that is the point of this whole set up.

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Some of these posts have really made me laugh. I am a Chat GPbiyaTch. Anyway, I do not expect any parent or bystander to be the lameness Po Po. The point of the “lameness training” is just to make them a little bit aware of some horse welfare issues. Why?

  1. It will compel at least some of them, who don’t already to think of the horses as living things with feelings and not as vehicles for status or a pile of bills or whatever they think of the horses as of now, to consider the comfort and welfare of the horses. (This is not a blanket statement. This is not every horse show parent).

  2. If will at least partially undermine the culture as it is now where many trainers don’t want knowledgeable parents (and often clients) but expect (some demand) to make all the decisions about the horse. I know several trainers who don’t want or even allow the owner or parent to be there to talk to the vet or to ask questions. One trainer told me, “I just want their credit card, not their input.” Another told me, “I want to get rid of that client. Her mom rode as a kid and she is too involved.” As many (not all) of these trainers are doing things that are against horse welfare like giving all the horses in the barn several drugs each night and sending their clients (often many who are minors) in on lame horses, arming the parents (and all riders) with a little information is not a bad thing.

  3. People are now required to do this to protect riders, especially kids through SafeSport, but there is no equivalent to promote horse welfare. This is off balance and gives an impression that the organization is more concerned about the people than the horses. This is not a good optic and does not support horse welfare. Parents (and riders and owners) are forced to think about child molestation and sexual harassment, but do not have to take into consideration the welfare of the sentient being they technically own or have leased.

This phenomenon is uncommon in the dressage world because 1) there are hardly any kids and 2) a large percentage of dressage riders are older type A women who are super involved in their horses care and accustomed to making horse welfare decisions, such as vet care, either alone or in concert with their trainer. Most dressage people would not tolerate being kept in the dark.

It is also important to keep in mind that as the average owner does not make $ off of their horse(s), they do not have the same incentive that some more unscrupulous trainers do to make decisions which are counter to horse welfare. Of course some owners and riders don’t give a crap about their horses and/or make bad decisions regularly, but it is not so systemic. Likewise, some trainers make decisions that always take into consideration horse welfare, but many do not. As long as people are making money off of animals who cannot speak for themselves, there is a significant risk of abuse. As the system is now, many trainers are abusing horses by either giving them cocktails of drugs for off-label use, and/or either with or without the rider, client, parent’s knowledge showing lame horses. There are arguably many other potential abuses and these are across other disciplines as well, but the purpose of this post is to focus on the drug use and lame horses.

The actual determinations of whether or not a horse is fit to show (which would be at all USEF shows not just HJ because all show lame horses) would be made by lameness specialists who would have a fair amount of training but not need to be a graduate of vet school. They would need to demonstrate their competency through a fairly rigorous training program and exam. The USEF show agreement would require that exhibitors accept the determination of these lameness specialists. The USEF would protect and pay for the defense of any lameness specialist who was sued. Anyone who did sue would get a lifetime ban from USEF shows. There may be a vet waiver for some conditions which cause gait abnormalities without a pain component, such as stringhalt, but these horses would still be subjected to a lameness check for other potential issues like a lameness on a front limb.

Yes, this would likely cause some attrition of some (more unscrupulous) trainers and clients. Perhaps they could go off and start their own organization more like Big Lick. Overall, it would be good for horse sports because the arguably most prestigious and powerful horse organization and the one that houses the Olympic disciplines would have a higher standard of horse welfare and not be complicit in the types of abuses I am talking about.

Presently, I resent that I need to be a member of USEF to compete in dressage when I feel like being a member of this organization is not in accordance with the basic standards of horse welfare that I believe should be required.

What prompted this post? It was the Stomatitis checks that I have to get a vet out for before each show. Why? Because as has repeatedly been the case, this outbreak was at a HJ show, Thermal, where I know (because I have been there and know a lot of people) that many of the horses, especially the hunters in certain barns are on multiple drugs including steroids that lower their immune system. The following statement I can not prove (so call it cray cray or a conspiracy theory if you like), but I highly suspect there is a correlation between drug use and these outbreaks. Moreover, these poor horses, who are shown for weeks at a time, are already under undo stress even without the use of drugs. The lifestyle many of them endure is counter to horse welfare.

In addition, I have followed the drug violations and seen (as any of you can look up on your own, so not hearsay) that the vast, vast majority of these violations are in the HJ crowd. It is true that a lot of the trainers are not breaking any rules because quite frankly the USEF rules allow for the use of several drugs regularly within the the letter of their law. Again, I will reiterate that very often, commonly in fact, HJ barns are giving a concoction of drugs on an off-label manner to affect not only the soundness but the overall demeanor of the horses.

Furthermore, many horses even with these concoctions of drugs and I am sure some who do not receive any drugs are competing while exhibiting marked lameness ( 3 out of 5, so not subtle). This has been a part of horse sports forever, and yes it happens in other disciplines including those like WP that are not under the USEF umbrella. USEF, as the organization responsible for arguably the highest level (Olympic) of equestrian sports in this country, needs to have much higher standards.

I put this on this forum to spark discussion and get at least some people thinking about this. Maybe when I am retired, I will have the time that would be required to really take on this fight with USEF and an industry that is very protective of maintaining the culture that allows for abuse.

Ok that sums it up. Signing off.

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hans-moleman-simpsons

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So all of this is because OP had to get her horse checked for stomatitis which they think is prevalent because some people use dexamethasone.

Lord have mercy.

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You keep proving that you like to hang out with people who do all the things you claim to not like. So weird how that is.

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OP you last post makes it sound like you got soured on the h/j world circuit and now are at a relatively low-key dressage barn with all adults. That’s a common tragectory for many riders as they age, but it absolutely is not true that all dressage ammies are lovely middle-aged women who don’t care about how they place as long as they have a few sparkly dressage pads and are super-anal about their horse’s health.

I ride dressage, and have ridden at barns (both low and high-end) that sound like the one you’re at now, but their are dressage barns and riders who clearly are not like that–as evidenced by a number of scandals that have rocked that world over the years. If they have gotten less traction or there “seems” like fewer, that often is just because it’s a less high-profile world and fewer people in the US start with dressage.

You are making massive generalizations from your own personal experiences.

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Do you mean FEI level tests at USEF shows or are you riding in CDI shows?

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What prompted this post? It was the Stomatitis checks that I have to get a vet out for before each show. Why? Because as has repeatedly been the case, this outbreak was at a HJ show, Thermal, where I know (because I have been there and know a lot of people) that many of the horses, especially the hunters in certain barns are on multiple drugs including steroids that lower their immune system. The following statement I can not prove (so call it cray cray or a conspiracy theory if you like), but I highly suspect there is a correlation between drug use and these outbreaks. Moreover, these poor horses, who are shown for weeks at a time, are already under undo stress even without the use of drugs. The lifestyle many of them endure is counter to horse welfare.

This is silly. An outbreak can literally happen anywhere where there are multiple horses. I know of college barns having disease outbreaks and that’s their HOME. Furthermore, you have no idea exactly how much these horses are showing and you’re making blanket statements. I come from a barn where horses have at least one week off between shows. For away shows they don’t leave the stabling, but they’re not competing at all. Yet you wouldn’t know that because they are still technically “at the show.”

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:sparkles:Be the change you wish to see in the world​:sparkles:

(Long time lurker, recent poster, promise not a troll)

As an aside, and please correct me if I’m wrong as I’ve been out of the game for a very long time, but seeing as OP mentions the use of Previcox a few times…is that or is that not considered off-label use (as has been rallied against so strongly in this thread) and the entire reason we now have Equioxx? As far as I understood it, when Equioxx was introduced, DVMs were told to no longer prescribe Previcox off label for equine use.

Quite frankly I don’t care if a DVM is still prescribing Previcox for equine use, I just enjoyed the irony.

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Yup. What a freaking waste of time. And veiled faux outrage.

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I am sorry but I thought Dexamethasone was an anti inflammatory , not a sedative??

Vet prescribed it for allergy induced heaves in our old mare…

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My first ‘season’ in FL, got up at 4am to walk a puppy and all I could hear was the sound of rhythmical cantering in the dark! This went on for god knows how long. Upperville this year: I live down the road, drove to Middleburg (10-12min) for groceries, observed horse being lunged out the side area near RVs by a groom. Came back maybe 45min or so later and same horse and groom still going at it . . . I switched to jumpers from Eventing 3yrs ago and boy have my eyes been opened in a hurry

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