Selling Etiquette

[Live_Wire]

I was going to post this under an alter, but what the heck.

What is proper etiquette on selling a horse you took back?

Long story short, I sold a horse who ended up not working out. It was a mismatch, and they chased the medical why. I have all the X-rays and Dx which I then forwarded to my vet. My vet has reviewed all the imagery and has cleared her with no limitations. I did maintenance and some basic modalities but I cannot find anything wrong, nor can my trainer or the assistant.

She’s a lovely type. She deserves to be in a home where she isn’t going to be #2 and will have a kid to dote on her and braid her mane and take her to all the big shows. She’d be the perfect 2’6” hunter. I am not a hunter and I don’t have the money to play hunter while balancing my event horse.

What would you do? What’s the right thing to do here?

[trubandloki]

@Live_Wire

I was going to post this under an alter, but what the heck.

What is proper etiquette on selling a horse you took back?

Long story short, I sold a horse who ended up not working out. It was a mismatch, and they chased the medical why. I have all the X-rays and Dx which I then forwarded to my vet. My vet has reviewed all the imagery and has cleared her with no limitations. I did maintenance and some basic modalities but I cannot find anything wrong, nor can my trainer or the assistant.

She’s a lovely type. She deserves to be in a home where she isn’t going to be #2 and will have a kid to dote on her and braid her mane and take her to all the big shows. She’d be the perfect 2’6” hunter. I am not a hunter and I don’t have the money to play hunter while balancing my event horse.

What would you do? What’s the right thing to do here?

If the horse is sound and suitable for the job, why would there be an issue moving forward with selling her?

I personally think you should be honest with people looking at this horse to buy, that she was returned, you have all the medical records, you will share them with their vet if they want.

Let them decide if they are worried about the issue the other buyer was worried about.

[Live_Wire]

Oh, I will absolutely disclose all information I have. She doesn’t have to go, and I will hang on to her until I find the absolutely perfect situation. I guess I just feel guilty. The previous owner tried really hard, and really loved the mare, but didn’t have a helpful support system.

[dmveventer]

What were the issues that caused the return? I think you’ll need to be prepared to give an answer that goes beyond “we couldn’t find any medical issues” since that’s going to leave a potential buyer with more questions than answers. Especially if you want to market this as a kid’s horse where having something uncomplicated is going to be more important to buyers.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

How long was she in the unsuitable home? Unless I’m misunderstanding, another issue might be (especially for a 2’6" “uncomplicated” kid’s hunter) is if she picked up any bad habits or was “untrained” due to a bad rider-trainer match (as the issue wasn’t medical).

[Live_Wire]

She had passed a thorough PPE prior to purchase. Shortly afterwards she started balking under saddle and they started to explore whether or not she was in pain. The same vet that performed the PPE came out and did x-rays and back x-rays. Her neck is clean, she does have one spinal process that is developing. They did a round of shockwave and followed the Vet’s rehab suggestion (a neck stretcher… but anyway…) and started groundwork over poles and her topline was developing nicely. They had an existing appt. with an equine hospital they kept and took her for a full work up with they found slight to mild changes up front and mild OA in her RH. Her previous owner has been lovely to work with and only wants what’s best for her. She has forwarded me every image which I in turn sent to my vets and I had my own work up done almost immediately after picking her up. I plan to provide copies of everything I have - I’m not hiding anything.

[Bonnie2]

Key would be identifying what was different between the buyer’s situation that didn’t work and your situation that does work. Turnout? Pro rides? Work load? Inform potential buyers about that and provide the medical records. I tell people buying a horse is like getting married. Sometimes it’s wonderful, sometimes it’s ok, sometimes it just doesn’t work. And good for you to take the horse back! Better luck next buyer!

[Live_Wire]

Almost a year… the horse was on trial for two weeks before PPE with no issue and didn’t start developing problems until a few months in. FWIW - this is the second horse the previous owner has sent back to me. The other horse had an FEI eventing career and was stepping down. Her x-rays weren’t pretty but in line with her history of use. I donated her to an NCAA IEA program and she is doing spectacularly.

My hesitation isn’t directed to the horse. I feel bad it didnt’ work out for the previous owner and I feel like it’s in bad taste. I don’t think it’s right to waste her talent, though. She is young and enjoys the work and has been doing the job, soundly and without issue for the past several months.

[Live_Wire]

We have a pretty good handle on it. Preference is going to be given to homes with people within my trainers circle who are likeminded.

I guess I’m just a little too emotionally involved. This is why I don’t sell horses.

[dmveventer]

Has the balking resolved though? It’s not clear if your question is about how to explain the return or the issues themselves.

If the behavior only happened with the former buyer and has gone away since the horse came back, I don’t think you need to proactively disclose anything medical. If it comes up you can just explain it was a bad fit, with a “horse goes best with XY but former owner did Z, and we had a vet out just to make sure nothing else was going on.”

[Live_Wire]

100% - we can recreate it for science. I had a good idea of what was going on before I even picked her up.

My question is, morally is it wrong to list her? Do I owe the previous owner anything? Do I tell them I’m listing her. Should I quietly market her? I feel bad. They spent decent money on her and gave her back to me.

[dmveventer]

I don’t think you owe the previous owner anything, assuming you did what you could to help them resolve the issue at the time and didn’t hide anything. If you shared your suspicions about what was happening and they still wanted to move on then they don’t get a say over what happens next. Yes they’re out the purchase price, but taking the horse off their payroll going forward is nosmall thing. You’re not morally obligated to keep the horse just because one other owner didn’t work out.

[Scribbler]

If you are legally the owner of the horse, you can sell her. You’ve had her back a year, the previous buyers have moved on and forgotten about her.

I have seen so many junior or beginner adults mess up a decent horse. I have done it myself but stuck through and solved my problems. A horse that starts balking with a novice rider but doesn’t show the behaviour with a pro rider? It’s the rider. Obviously you took the horse back and didn’t blame the kid, but now you have the horse and need to make the best decisions for you and the horse

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I’m confused at your guilt. You own the horse, even if the horse was sold for you back for a dollar. Do you feel morally obligated to hold onto the horse forever? They could have sold the horse, but obviously did not have the skills to campaign the horse for sale, and would have had to taken it to a trainer or sales barn and be charged a commission for what they sold. Was their an implicit expectation that they were giving it back as a “forever home”? For a healthy show horse, this seems like an unrealistic expectation.

Ethically speaking, as a non-pro, my only (very personal) point would be that if a horse sold as a ammie-friendly lower level horse had issues with a previous ammie rider, I would like to know that and that might make me hesitate. Not because the horse is bad, but because I am realistic about my skills as a rider and know that I am not capable of giving a horse a 100% confident ride at every show and would wonder if the horse might not be the best match for me. It’s up to you how you want to discuss this, and you know the horse best. But if you sold the horse and the horse started refusing again, and then I ran into the previous owner who said, “there he goes again,” then I might be upset.

Is there a show record of the horse not doing well with the old rider?

Ethically, I think the best thing would be to look for a more confident rider for this horse. Not a pro, but just a rider who is one of those “not much bothers her, doesn’t choke back” types.

[Live_Wire]

This is what I needed to hear. Than[quote=“Impractical_Horsewoman, post:14, topic:797634”]
I’m confused at your guilt. You own the horse, even if the horse was sold for you back for a dollar. Do you feel morally obligated to hold onto the horse forever? They could have sold the horse, but obviously did not have the skills to campaign the horse for sale, and would have had to taken it to a trainer or sales barn and be charged a commission for what they sold. Was their an implicit expectation that they were giving it back as a “forever home”? For a healthy show horse, this seems like an unrealistic expectation.
[/quote]

Very valid points. There were no expectations. I told them I would take her back and sort her out the best I could. And I did. I know I’ve done right by the horse. Finding her a suitable home is in her best interest. It’s just a situation I’ve not been in before and I didn’t know if there was a standard practice.

[Dressagelvr]

I understand your guilt. Your buyer paid you for the horse, spent a small fortune in vet work up, and then donated the horse to back to you. This buyer wanted to do right by this horse more than she wanted money.

Lets pause for a minute and appreciate how rare and wonderful that is.

If you sell, you could share some of the profit with your former buyer. You don’t have to, of course, but it would be kind.

However, whether to sell this horse at all is a separate, unrelated question IMO. Based on the (multiple) findings in the vet workup combined with the behavior issues, I think it is highly likely that this horse is in pain. Sure, you can ride/push through it, but for how long? A 2’6 kid rider will likely be unable to do that.

What happens if the next person who buys the horse doesn’t care about what happens to a horse they perceive as being lame and/or ill tempered? We all know where this road leads and it isn’t good.

You say in one of your posts that you can keep the horse without issue. I recommend you do just that. Most horses truly don’t care if they work and many prefer not to. She will be perfectly happy right where she is.

[Live_Wire]

I politely disagree. While I am not a professional, I do have a fair bit of experience and I am extraodonarily cognizant of how my horses feel.

If I felt she were in pain, she would not be undersaddle. This is a mare that would whinny her way up the alley on a loose rein while she was on the back side. She thrives in work, like a lot of Thoroughbreds do. She absolutely knows when someone is watching her and she loves to be the center of attention.

I have known this mare since she was two years old and I would love nothing more than to put her in my pasture so I could have a cup of coffee with her every morning but I truly do not feel that is in her best interest. She simply didn’t want her face ripped while being spurred and whipped from both sides simultaneously by the “trainer.” I can recreate her behavior if I sit heavier than what is comfortable, pull both reins, and squeeze her like a tube of toothpaste. I would pin my ears and swish my tail, too. Ultimately my guilt originates from the fact that I sold her to these people in the first place. She is lovely - a horse a lot of people would want and I’m lucky to represent her.

[candyappy]

@Live_Wire

What would you do? What’s the right thing to do here?

@Live_Wire

My vet has reviewed all the imagery and has cleared her with no limitations. I did maintenance and some basic modalities but I cannot find anything wrong, nor can my trainer or the assistant.

I don’t think you need to do anything more then you would when you sold her the first time? The vet reviewed the X-rays and found nothing. Horse is sound, willing and able to work.

Horse didn’t mesh with the first buyer. No need to say anything about that unless you want to. It is no fault of yours or the horse.

[jvanrens]

After reading everything, have you considered leasing her to someone in an approved program or maybe an onsite? That way it’s not permanent and she won’t be someones number 2?

[Scribbler]

@Live_Wire

I politely disagree. While I am not a professional, I do have a fair bit of experience and I am extraodonarily cognizant of how my horses feel.

If I felt she were in pain, she would not be undersaddle. This is a mare that would whinny her way up the alley on a loose rein while she was on the back side. She thrives in work, like a lot of Thoroughbreds do. She absolutely knows when someone is watching her and she loves to be the center of attention.

I have known this mare since she was two years old and I would love nothing more than to put her in my pasture so I could have a cup of coffee with her every morning but I truly do not feel that is in her best interest. She simply didn’t want her face ripped while being spurred and whipped from both sides simultaneously by the “trainer.” I can recreate her behavior if I sit heavier than what is comfortable, pull both reins, and squeeze her like a tube of toothpaste. I would pin my ears and swish my tail, too. Ultimately my guilt originates from the fact that I sold her to these people in the first place. She is lovely - a horse a lot of people would want and I’m lucky to represent her.

Ok, this was the missing information about your otherwise “lovely” buyers that sank so much money into vet diagnostics. You inadvertently sold her to idiots, and they messed up. As long as the bad riding didn’t give her persistent behavior problems, she should be fine in future