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Sensitizing Horse to the Whip

Dressage
#61

@Dr. Doolittle Wow, thank you so much for all of that feedback! I really, really appreciate it!

Ulcers are definitely on my radar. I’ve never had experience with them before, because my guys were at home in the most relaxed, “horse happy” environment I could create. They didn’t have a care in the world, and everything was tailored for them to be happy and stress free.

You know what’s weird? When he had his freak-out today in the barn, I was grooming him. He has days when he stands very still for grooming and days when he’s wiggly. He was kind of wiggly today, and when I went to brush in his flank (I’m always careful in touchy/sensitive places like that), that’s when he suddenly got “big” and snorty and nervous. It may have been a total coincidence, and when I got him back in the barn he didn’t react like that again, but I was extra gentle too.

There is definitely something gastrointestinal going on with him. His manure was still somewhat loose today. Not really diarrhea, just not formed apples like he used have. It’s a LOT of poop, in a big, soft pile (How’s that for details? LOL!!) There’s a little watery stuff with it (I’ll stop now…would you like to know how it smells? Pungent. LOL)

Along with the softer stool, he’s stomach is making a lot of noise and he passes a lot of gas…and it will take your breath away (smells like boiled eggs).

Goodness. I need to stop, LOL. But I’m truly wanting to help him feel better. Ulcer treatment is expensive, and there was a time in my life when I couldn’t have afforded it. I am fortunate to have the ability to do it now, and I think I might just to be safe. I’ll talk to my vet about it tomorrow.

Again…thank you so much!

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#62

Most welcome 😊

Was it his right flank? That’s one of the possible symptoms of hindgut issues. That and the gassiness and the loose stool? Points in that direction.

You could try Succeed for a month and see if there’s improvement, I personally use Equishure for my mare (daughter of the mare I mentioned in my post - she will NOT eat Succeed), and it’s less pricey. It totally resolved her hindgut issues and I keep her on it as maintenance.

Omeprazole is the go to for ulcers (or Sulcralfate), but you could try it in the pop rocks form - or possibly Nexium. There’s a long thread on Nexium in the Horse Care forum. Problem with Omeprazole is that if it IS hindgut rather than stomach ulcers, it can exacerbate symptoms.

If you don’t want to scope, you could try treating and see if he improves.

Misoprostal along with Omeprazole will target both. Ask your vet! There are less expensive options than Gastroguard/Ulcerguard.

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#63

Of course the smell is important. Horse manure should not make you screw up your nose. Stopping the grain and just going to hay will help and then just add back one thing at a time to know that it doesn’t go to his head.

You could also get him a pair of hoof boots for riding in the harder arena if you don’t want to shoe him and that is the only place he is tender.

Yes herd hierarchy changes, but what shouldn’t change is his confidence in you to keep him safe.

I do not lunge to get the ya yas out. The lunge is for work.

I started my boy today, just a little on the lunge. My instructor said he is going to come out here to give hubby and I lessons = motivation!

So I will be bringing him back I to work along with you.

All 3 horses came when I called. Stars approached me first. I put his halter on and walked down and opened the gate, which I closed when they all started coming down together. So the other 2 went out.

Stars is getting his winter coat. A little bit of mud on both sides of his face from a little shower yesterday and a little oldish looking injury to the top of a hoof.

%$%$$^ Kez rugs. I have had enough of them especially when I found out how much hubby pays for them. They use crap clips, one leg strap was undone and hanging down. The other one I could not open. I had to get a hoof pick to open it to get his rug off.

Dirt came to the surface when I curry combed. He has been so neglected.

He only did one thing wrong. He did not tell me that I had not put the side reins on to go up to the arena. But other than that he was good, went slow and quick when asked and I usually don’t do much on the first day anyway.

He cantered on the correct leads and was ready for more as I said just walk instead of sending him out in side reins.

…and he was sound, so that was a good start.

I got out a new rug which I am only happy to have on them when the weather is fine.

Tomorrow is another day.

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#64

It is in his right side, and that’s also the side where he’s been tender/flinching over his hip/loin area. That seems to be improving a little though.

Being the impulsive worry-wart that I am, I went ahead and ordered a 6-pack of Ulcergard from SmartPak and paid extra to get it here ASAP. Am I right that I give a whole tube each day, the way one would Gastrogard, even though Ulcergard is supposed to be for prevention and given at a lower rate…but is actually the same thing as Gastrogard? Or should I give him a lesser dose?

I was just reading that carrots can make some horses goofy if fed a lot. I have been feeding him two or three a day, something else he rarely got before now. After I read that, I stopped giving them to him for a week or so, and just fed his Smart Cookies (no sugar added), and that was a stretch of time when he seemed much more relaxed in the barn (where I usually try to feed treats to encourage him to like it better). But then I had this big bag of carrots sitting in my fridge, so I started feeding them again. Cue the spookiness ramping up again. Could be a total coincidence, but I’m stopping. If his tummy is already out of whack, and he’s jacked up on spring grass, the lingering effects of high NSC grain and MSM, and a possible ulcer, he probably doesn’t need carrots on top of it all. I was never a treat feeder when he was at home. I always gave a handful of Triple Crown Senior after our ride as a reward.

It’s funny how when you really sit down an analyze everything you do with a horse, you can clearly see how big the changes are that you’ve made in his life. No wonder he’s such a mess.

I hope things start turning around for him soon. He’s such a good boy, and he wants to do the right thing, but he just acts like he can’t help himself right now.

#65

@SuzieQNutter sounds like a good start to getting Stars back to work! I wish you luck, and please feel free to post updates here in this thread! We can cheer each other on!

I was confused for a minute when you said he’s getting his winter coat, then I remembered that you’re Down Under! A place I’ve always wanted to visit, and hopefully will some day. Such great horse people from Australia.

I’ve thought about the hoof boots, and might actually look into that.

#66

Hmm, those symptoms sound more like hindgut to me.

You might want to do some research (there are a LOT of threads on here, actually!), and Ulcerguard and Gastroguard are the exact same thing; the only difference is the dosage. Since Ulcerguard is marketed as a preventative and Gastroguard as a treatment, you would give 1/4 of a tube (before hauling, for example); the “treatment” dose would be the entire tube. I have only used Gastroguard for the preventative purpose in the past since I’ve not had a horse with full-blown ulcers (but have had friends and students who have.)

Here’s a thread on it:

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…d-vs-ulcergard

Keep in mind that omeprazole can aggravate hindgut issues, so you might want to have some hindgut treatment as backup. My vet provided me with paste omeprazole WITH misoprostal - of course that was as a preventative rather than treatment (for hauling and stressful events) for my hindgut issue-prone mare who is already on Equishure. The misoprostal buffered the effects of the omeprozole.

Ah, these horses with sensitive tummies!

As for carrots, it wouldn’t hurt to eliminate them from the diet for now. Smart Cookies are probably pretty benign :slight_smile:

#67

Yes Down Under. It won’t be long and we will have frosts which will kill the grass.

I’m sorry I have never had experience with ulcers, so I have nothing to add. Stars had them before he came here but not with the way I keep horses.

I have used hoof boots in an arena with my instructor. I can feel a lot with horses, but I couldn’t feel a difference the day I forgot to take them off, putting them on with his float boots to travel.

Like you, I don’t like the footing in the indoor arena and my horses don’t have shoes. I usually ride in their outdoor sand arena which Hubby and I built for them.

I also put the hoof boots on the front to trail ride. He is pretty good tender wise, but to me they only have to stand on one big rock out on the trail to get a stone bruise and it doesn’t cost me any more to put them on, as I already bought them.

I don’t put them on in the arena, so he knows if I put them on we are going trail riding! I have to dismount to come in the front gate, so I remove them before going into the arena at home.

Our horses get carrots care of hubby. I stayed at Mum’s Wednesday Night. Hubby went to visit his father last night, so he called me to say he had a shopping bag of cut up carrots in the fridge for me. They get way more than a couple of carrots!

Dodge told me that hubby gives him a carrot going to the laundry, no buddy not from me.

Hubby has also complained that Dodge has stolen the feed bin as he is making the bins. He laughed when Dodge did that to Sim. Hubby called Sim, Sim looked up and Dodge put his muzzle in the feed bin and pulled it away. Hubby didn’t feel so happy about it when Dodge did it to him.

Well it is quite obvious that hubby had been letting Dodge have his head in the laundry while he is making the feeds.

Nope not allowed. So by the end Dodge was standing quietly outside while I made the feeds.

Hubby will be in trouble AGAIN, when he gets home! As Dodge has told on him.

#68

What is he eating? Is it possible that you are transitioning his feed too quickly? Any other changes? New grass? Weather change (for the grass)?

Ulcers are a possibility from the behavior, but he’s also got some hind gut something happening, which may or may not be related. I’d go with a good probiotic for that, like a hefty dose of Platinum Balance. Horsetech’s Gutwerks is also a nice product. If you do need to treat for ulcers, definitely keep on that kind of hind gut support. Consider Succeed.

Gut pain can certainly make them spooky and reactive. It can also make them sour and sucked back. So, it’s possible something there has been going on for a while but you’re still making a lot of changes and so maybe it’s time for vet intervention (stomach scope, listening to his gut, perhaps testing a fecal sample).

If his feet are a little sore, that could also be enough stress in itself to contribute to ulcers. And if he now thinks he’s got to be the “lookout” but he isn’t really comfortable in that role, that could make him insecure in the barn where he’s not only “alone” but isn’t able to monitor the farm so easily.

But belly issues seem to be a good place to start to address all of the behaviors.

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#69

I had a super, super feed efficient Paso Fino mare, who was normally like a firecracker ready to go off, the fuse burning down to the BAM!!! I had no problems handling her on the ground or under saddle, she was just spirited and liked showing it off a little bit.

One day I tried feeding my horses carrots, two full Arabs, two part Arabs, a POA and my Paso Fino mare. The other horses scarfed the carrots down and stayed their usual pretty chill selves.

The Paso Fino mare, on the other hand acted like she was ready to launch herself into orbit off of one medium sized carrot. Super hair-trigger, buggy eyes, flared nostrils, and this is in spite of the fact that she only got 2 handfuls of oats each day (plus grass hay) and was outside in a paddock 24/7/365. The next day I got an identical reaction from her.

I stopped feeding her carrots and she quickly went back to her normal self, quite spirited but completely there and controllable.

I never fed her a carrot again.

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#70

Thanks for the feed summary. It sounds like a good idea to put him back on the senior or at least cut back on the current feed. And supplement with hay if the grass isn’t good enough. Or a fat source for calories without the sugar. You might consider Equishure for help with his belly and the new grass.

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#71

Horses eat grass. When grass is not enough you supplement with hay. If hay is not enough you supplement with hard feed.

You do not supplement not enough grass with just grain.

This goes to the ratio of let’s call grasss and hay, fibre and hardfeed, grain.

50% from both is out of balance. You want at least 75% to 95% fibre.

At the lecture in Australia from a vet he said yhatracehorses are fed more 50, 50 and they are not healthy because of this.

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#72

@Jackie Cochran that is wild! There must be something to it. I’m cutting out carrots, at least for now, and maybe forever. There are plenty of other treats he can eat. He loves his Smart Cookies (peppermint patty flavor), and they are healthy.

@IPEsq I’ll keep Equishure in mind if he doesn’t seem to come around. He’s actually looking really good now, and today he was pretty chill.One spook when there was a loud noise that startled him while I was hand-grazing him, but he got over it quickly. Took him to the scary places around the barn and he got wide-eyed and snorty, but eventually settled down.

I just get the feeling he’s going to come around once all of the grain (and possibly MSM) is out of his system. I’ll be more vigilant about making sure he has adequate forage during transition times when the pasture is either dwindling or just starting to pop up. I’ll keep some alfalfa cubes on hand for those times and have them added to his TC Sr. when needed.

Thanks so much to you guys and everyone. This thread sure took a turn, LOL. From waking up a lazy horse to calming down a crazy horse. Hopefully we’ll find the sweet spot in the middle soon.

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#73

Oh I missed he was on MSM too. That does make some of them crazy! Can also cause some looser manure.

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#74

I agree completely. I blame myself for not being more involved with his feeding program and nutrition once moving to the new barn. I’d been in sole control over everything that went into his mouth for 11 of his 12 years, and decided I would just trust the BO and see how he did. And in her defense, the feed she uses is labeled as “Complete” and is high in fiber and says it can be used for the total’s total dietary needs including forage. But there is also a lot of oats in the feed. It obviously works fine for the other horses at the barn that eat it, but my guy just can’t take those oats (and possibly that MSM).

TC Senior is grain-free, high fat, and high fiber. Now that the pasture is coming in good, He’ll be fine on this and grazing. Once the pastures start dwindling, I’ll have her add alfalfa cubes to his meals to make up for the loss of forage. She also feeds nice quality timothy hay when the pastures are gone.

Thanks for all of your wonderful advice and help!

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#75

Yeah, it’s actually included in the feed: Tribute’s Seniority GC Plus (G = Glucosamine, C = Chondroitin, Plus = MSM).

#76

When my horses were under my control I started off with sweet feed. The results were OK-ish. (I weighed the feed, fed to keep the ribs with a cushion but able to see the last three ribs.)

Then I switched to oats (I did not totally trust the local mill about the alfatoxins in the local corn harvest.) I got the local oats plus alfalfa pellets & fescue hay and got pretty much the same results.

Then one day we went to our really local feed mill & talked with the miller/owner. He listened to my tale of woe about the hully and dusty local oats and cheerfully told me he could get me GOOD oats (not race horse grade though.)

I ended up feeding the Paso Fino carrot spastic mare two handfuls of the Western oats, handfuls measured by my small fist, fescue hay, and 10 minutes to 2 hours of grazing for the grass growing season, and about 1/2 pound oats in the winter, same with the alfalfa pellets. Fat, sassy, spirited, but not too fat. Her coat shone with minimal grooming. I cut the remaining horses’ oats ration in HALF, shiny coats, as much as can be shiny in dirt paddocks, decent fat covering on the ribs.

Some horses are really sensitive to calories. Some horses are really, really sensitive to too much protein. Horses simply did not evolve to adjust to super high, dense nutrition year round. Fat in the spring, fatter in the fall, decent feed in the summer, and the long and varied diet of winter–eating anything edible including tree bark & small twigs and getting thinner until the spring grass comes in.

Our horses may have too much and too good nutrition for their sanity, their joints, our pocketbooks, and for our ability to own a horse that you yourself can ride without paying for constant training rides by a pro.

It is valid to feed a small horse just a handful of oats. They often REALLY love their oats!

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#77

The same vet as above said it is only humans that want horses fat all year round. In nature they lose weight over winter and gain weight over Spring. He said that it was us keeping them fat all year round which equals horses getting Cushings.

I have never fed oats to any horse of any breed. I avoid oats and corn in any pellets or feed. I prefer to boil barley. It gives an apple rump without going to their heads.

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#78

Well I spent the morning looking for a necklace seeing as hubby did NOT get me anything for my birthday. I lost the pendant in the arena and went up with the rake yesterday and no luck and such a huge area that I figured, What am I doing? he could get me a new necklace for my birthday.

So this should be here next week.[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“title”:“Screenshot_20200516-102232_eBay.jpg”,“data-attachmentid”:10651668}[/ATTACH]

Then I went up. Stars was right near the tack shed. Hubby was riding Sim.

Stars had a really nice shine when I took the rug off. He didnt have as much dirt come to the surface when I curry combed.

I am going to have to trim his saddle and bridle part before my instructor comes out. I should ride him in my competition bridle with a noseband. Should I ride in white jodhies, black jacket and long boots when he is here? Or is that going too far?

I left Stars with the saddle and bridle on, untied, and went up to the A part of the arena to get the lunge cavesson and lunge whip. He stayed.

He did his manure before getting to the arena. He did it in the arena yesterday and I told him that perfect horses do it coming up to the arena and not in there!

I was not going to get on him so I was not in riding pants, but I grabbed the dressage whips as I figured I could get on and walk afterwards.

I remembered the side reins.

He was 100% perfect, he cantered and stayed in canter. He dropped almost to walk when I said slow. He went forward when I said quick.

Hubby left the arena and went to untack.

I put the side reins on. Perfection. This is the horse who was sold as 100% bucked on the lunge and couldn’t be ridden unless he was ridden at least 3 times a week.

I was so happy with him, I took the side reins off and let him walk, not doing the last bit we do when he is in work, of trot 2 holes shorter. I also did not hop on him. He had been perfect. It is only the 2nd day back.

I took him down and hubby commented on how good he looked after all the time off he has had.

Stars’ dropped his head in hubby’s lap to have his ears scratched.

I am off to a lunch with my friend who also has a horse. We intend to be BAD. I am taking iced donuts and a Sarah Lee Red velvet cheese cake. That is so NOT what dressage riders should eat!

Screenshot_20200516-102232_eBay.jpg

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#79

In many books, books on equine nutrition and chapters on equine nutrition in other horse books, barley is highly recommended, with the note that it MUST be processed in some way so that the horse can get all the nutrients. If I remember correctly (its been decades) the hull must be cracked or otherwise opened up (milled.)

Barley, nutritionally, is the grain that is nearest to oats for giving the horse the concentrate nutrition they need. A few of the authors preferred barley over oats.

#80

Yes barley should not be fed whole, if enough is given it swells after being eaten and can cause colic and death

You can get steam rolled barley but once the hull is cracked it starts losing its nutrients. Nowadays you get extruded feeds.

But giving them boiled barley to me is comforting in winter. We are at home so we boil in the afternoon for the morning and vice versa. All the nutrients are still in the water. It is warm to give them while it is cold and it is a larger amount physically than a handful of pellets.

In the old days when horses were not in the grass paddocks they are now. We would add rice in the pan as well as linseed.

The dog and the chooks loved the rice as well.

… and totally sane horses. With plenty of energy.

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