Sensitizing Horse to the Whip

[Lunabear1988]

I haven’t read every single post yet, so forgive me if this has been mentioned or absolutely won’t apply to your horse. I haven’t tried this myself but thought it was interesting either way.

I was at a clinic last year and there was a rider who was getting quite strong with the whip on her horse. The point the audience could hear the “whack!” She also was using it pretty often. The clinician, a young GP trainer, suggested instead that she try and hold the whip vertically, above the horse. So hold the whip with the sash end pointing towards the sky. Not even use it if not needed.

It worked! I think the horse could just see it out of the corner of his eye and he was more energetic after that. I don’t know if this would work everytime or really be useful long term. But I thought it was interesting and sure was better than her beating the snot out of her horse and barely getting a response.

[Danged_Arab]

OP, your horse reminds me of a Dutch gelding I had about 35 years ago. He just did not seem to feel the whip (or leg, or spurs, or anything). I used to tell people he had no nerve endings. I could take the whip overhand and smack him as hard as I could, and MAYBE he would flick an ear back, like “Did you say something?”

Here are a couple of things that worked for us. My instructor was really good at long lining. She started long lining him a couple of times a week, carrying the lunge whip and snapping him with it when he did not immediately go forward when asked. (Similar idea to Toblersmom’s post #3 in this thread.) It worked wonders to get him to understand what the heck “go” meant. His whole body opened up and he just sailed around. (I long lined him some too, but I was way clutzy.)

Other times she would have him on a lunge line with me riding him in a circle around her. I had the reins and everything; the lunge line was just to keep him from getting too far away from her. When I gave an aid, say walk to trot, if he didn’t JUMP forward into the trot, she snapped him with the whip. So I kept my aids light and asked only one time, and she enforced the response. It was a lot of work, and we had to continue to do it periodically, but boy oh boy, the results were amazing!

Good luck!

[RhythmNCruise]

@Danged Arab thanks for the tips! I’m going to try to do some more ground work, including lunging, to get him more tuned up and listening.I feel like he has such a fundamental lack of understanding about correct pressure and release that we really do need to go all the way back to working in-hand and on the lunge to establish it there before I can expect too much under saddle. Almost like I’m re-starting him, even though he’s 12 years old and has been ridden a lot. Which is fine. I’m totally game!

Yesterday’s ride was, meh. It was in the arena because the landscaping crew was out in full force on our riding field, so I decided not to tempt fate on a very blustery day. So, I could tell he was dull and blah when I got on. I had started thinking on the last couple of rides that maybe I should just give him a few minutes once I get on to meander around in his pokey “western pleasure” walk until he was ready to kick it up a notch, but now I’m not so sure. Walk-halt-walk transitions and our pitiful attempts at shoulder-in and leg yields do get him moving a little more forward. He’s pretty good at turn on the forehand and those seem to get him tuned up and moving too.

But when I ask for trot (as lightly as possible), he moves off in the dinkiest trot…almost a jog. I should mention, he has world champion western pleasure bloodlines on his dam’s side, and world champion halter horse bloodlines on his sire’s side…so he’s bred to either go very slow or not be ridden at all, LOL.

I’m trying to make sure there are no physical reasons for his lethargy too. He doesn’t act like he’s in pain, but he’s stoic, so who knows? One thing he definitely does have trouble with is his airway. He’s never been scoped, but he’s definitely “thick winded” if not a total roar. And I’ve noticed lately that he doesn’t seem able to blow his nose while moving above a walk. Or maybe he can, but he doesn’t seem to want to. His breathing will start getting louder and I’ll feel him trying to stretch his head down and kind of sucking back, and I know he wants to blow his nose. I’ve started just coming back to the walk to let him. He kind of makes this whining noise for a minute before he finally blows his nose several times.

He’s also narrow behind, and his hind feet barely get past each other when he walks. I wonder if that conformation issue could make engaging and using his back end more difficult? (No idea…just spit-balling.)

His trot to canter transitions are mostly horrible, and I know it’s because I don’t have him truly through and in front of my leg and correct at the trot when I ask. I’m bad about thinking “it’s time to canter” even if he’s obviously not physically in a good place to start cantering. I try to get him together and ask at a good time, but there doesn’t ever seem to be a good time.

Maybe I’m expecting way too much of him. He’s getting ridden more and harder now than he has in his entire life, and had 3 years of absolutely NO riding prior to getting back on him in November. From November through March, he got ridden an average of once a week, and since COVID-19, the work has increased because I’m working from home and have more time to devote to him. He’s getting at least every other day, weather permitting, and some stretches of two or three days of riding in a row. But that’s only been for the last month. So…yeah, what do I expect?

Okay. Talking through that helped me out, LOL.

I truly appreciate all the help on this thread. And will continue to appreciate any future help!

[SuzieQNutter]

Your talking helps more than you know. It lets me picture the both of you and the picture changes each time.

Now its my turn hahaha.

You have to start with the leading, not just the lunging. Mine are not taught to follow my feet. A single click means walk on and I mean now and forward. Not in a second time and dwardle. Not in 2 seconds time. Not in 5. Definitely not in a minute, or next week. Now.

You just use a halter and you can use a dressage whip in your off hand if you want.

So a single click means walk. The word halt means halt and do not move. The word back and the thumb touching the chest means back. Always use the word back and a signal together to back a horse. You don’t want both horses trying to back when you say back in a double float.

Later you can teach back and a small tug on the tail to back out of a float and back and wag your finger from side to side when standing in front.

Oh the joy of horses trained in this way and being taught to come when you call and to stand still and stay halted when you say halt.

So a halter is used to train, but you go out in the morning call Stars and he comes from wherever I couldn’t see him so I don’t end up walking the property to find them.

I teach them to halt away from me. I don’t want a horse cantering up to me in the mud and try to stop and slide into me.

I greet him. He loves being fussed over and tickling his ears. He drops his head to me. I click we walk to the gate. I say halt. He halts. I open the gate. He walks a few steps up to the tack shed and I say halt. He halts. I go in and out of the tack shed to groom his saddle and girth. Put on the saddle blanket and saddle. Loosely do the girth. Go back in to groom the rest of him. Pick and oil hooves. Comb his mane while slowly doing the girth up and then putting the bridle on is the first time he has something put on his head.

I have removed the brow band from the lunging cavesson. I have cut the piece at the back so as I can put it under the cheek pieces. I lunge in solid side reins

When I click we walk up to the arena. I put my riding whips on the mounting block. I click and say out you go and he goes out. I step back and I am lunging. Walk and trot and canter without side reins. Same with long side reins. Same with training length side reins. Up another 2 holes and trot only. Remove side reins to walk.

As you have upped his riding with covid 19, you will need to up his feed. Something with protein and start slowly. Too little and he will be lethargic. Too much and he is probably the type to buck rather than bolt.

With his training teach him to go forward when you click or I say quick. On the lunge I say quick and raise the lunge rope and whip. I then say slow and drop down the lunge rein and whip.

So he is being praised for slow as well as being praised for quick. He will work his heart out for that praise. Being praised for slow will make him happy. You want a happy horse.

Now the same thing under saddle. Ask for slow. Ask for quick. Praise for both.

It is much easier having your horse go forward with the word quick rather than using whips and spurs.

You and I know that we are not wanting quick and slow we are working the covering more ground and collecting.

The blowing the nose and getting up to it with a noise is normal. Of course I would have to hear it to say if it is a normal noise. I call it blowing out the cobwebs and your horse will not do this if tense. It is when they are relaxed and happens on the lunge as well as under saddle. You don’t have to walk. I usually say cough, cough, splutter splutter snort when he does it. It is a good thing.

Gotta go. See ya. (Practising an American accent!)

[RhythmNCruise]

@SuzieQNutter I really do appreciate all of the time you’ve spent sharing your wisdom with me. It means a lot.

We’ll definitely be taking a break from riding for at least a few days, as I discovered today that he’s quite sore over his croup area. Poor guy. There is a chiro who comes out to this barn on occasion, and I’m hoping to get her to work on him the next time she’s out. He’s never had anything like that done before.

I think I’ve rushed him and haven’t properly conditioned and built him up for the amount of work I’m asking of him now. Today he had another big spook that almost got us hurt because he was about to back into a pretty big ditch trying to get away from the horse-eating water tank that he’d walked by just 15 minutes before without a care in the world. He also spooked when I was leading him out to hand graze, but that’s because the BO started the lawn mower right beside us as we were walking by and then immediately after a little spook about that, he saw the BO’s husband come into view as he was cleaning the swimming pool and my horse spooked and tried to whirl away and knocked right into me.

The spooking is getting more pronounced, and now I’m thinking pain could be the culprit. He doesn’t complain when being saddled or mounted or ridden. I think the saddle fits well, but I’m hoping to have a fitter come out soon so I can be sure. It looks good, sits level, doesn’t seem to bridge or rock or anything. It has an adjustable tree, so it should be easy if there is an issue. But mostly I think he’s just been asked for too much too quickly after such a long period of being a pasture puff.

I’ve had him since he was a yearling and have done all of his training and riding. There is absolutely no buck in this horse, and really there’s no true “bolting” as even if he has a big spook he’s not going to run off with me (I don’t think!) He’s always had it in him to spook a little bit and be “looky” but now he’s locking up the brakes and running backwards, spinning around and trying to run away when something doesn’t look right to him. This has now happened two of the last three times I’ve ridden him, and I’m really hoping it’s pain related, because he’s becoming less predictable it seems. Though I did get him through the big spooks both times and got him to accept the scary monsters that caused it, and everything was fine. And he seems happy and relaxed in between the big spooks. Maybe he’s just being a goober, but I think the pain has to be a factor. There’s also the fact that he’s been at this farm for 7 months now, and I think he finally feels at home enough that when things are out of place or moved, he’s noticing. The water tank that almost killed him today was empty and on its side in a slightly different place. Heaven forbid. Once I got him past it, we went to the arena and worked for quite a while. I took him back to the monstrous water tank on its side afterward and he was a good boy about it. So, that’s good.

As for his breathing, it’s loud even when he’s not trying to blow his nose, especially at the canter. And sometimes he acts like he’s not getting enough air and wants to stop. He never really blows hard or gets out of breath though, it’s just like he can’t get enough air while cantering. He’s loud a the trot too, but not as loud. Heck, if it’s hot and humid out, his breathing is a little loud even leading him in from the pasture, so…yeah. It’s an issue.

So anyway. He gets a break from riding due to his back, and I’m going to use that time to do lots of ground work with him. Tomorrow we’re going for a walk around the farm, and I’ll reach back into my bag of tricks from when I used to do showmanship at halter in the AQHA shows, as well as some TRT stuff.

[SuzieQNutter]

Oh no not the update I was looking for.

I agree, a horse that bucks, spins, spooks, rears, etc is not a horse that is being naughty but a horse that is communicating with you.

When you go to riding every day you soon find out if your tack is not perfect. It has to be, otherwise they get really sore really quickly.

Place the saddle on without a saddle blanket. Standing behind him or on a mounting block you should be able to see light through the channel. Look at his sweat pattern when you take the saddle off. He should have sweat where the saddle is. If he has non sweat patches there is too much pressure and these will later turn to white hairs.

My boy, those 2 were perfect, but he started being grumpy with the saddle. My chiropractor who I trust completely and I have seen miracles from over the years, said that the flap was too forward and pressing on the new muscle on his shoulder. So, sigh, people say I am riding in too small a saddle but it is not the saddle I picked. Stars says I have to ride in it for him to be happy.

My first boy Pepper was a high blower. They snort every stride in canter. It was funny that I no longer heard it under saddle but watching a videonI heard it.

Same with the crows. I did not notice them in real life. On a video all you can hear is them cawing to each other.

If you get the feeding incorrect and too much, a hot horse will usually bolt. A not wanting to go forward horse will pigroot or buck rather than canter. A horse that has never bucked before and a horse that has never bolted before and once the feeding is corrected. They don’t do it again.

it doesn’t happen overnight and it takes more than overnight to correct. The rider usually never makes that mistake again!

[RhythmNCruise]

So, another update. I’ve been back on him twice since my last post, Friday and today. Friday he was an absolute snorting, wide-eyed goober from the time I brought him in from the pasture, but I rode anyway, and he had another big spooking episode over the landscaping crew, but we took our time and worked through it. I’m a little dismayed that he’s learned this balk-back-spin thing, as it’s something he’s never done before, but so far it hasn’t been anything that I can’t handle. The major problem is it usually happens in a place where we have a fence on one side and a really deep ditch on the other and things can get dicey if he gets really adamant and I’m trying to correct him. Despite his meltdown on Friday, once he was over it he gave me some really good, really forward work, so I was pleased with that.

Today there were no spooks, but some “almost spooks” at the four-wheeler and manure spreader, and certainly some “looky” moments, but he kept it together.

What is SO crazy is that he’s SO forward these past two rides. Even today, when it was warm and calm winds and nothing major to scare him, he was still very alert and VERY forward. I was literally having to half-halt and say “whoa” a lot (Wow!). He feels fan-freaking-tastic like this, even though it’s so strange because I’m not used to it and he feels so…electric? A friend and fellow rider who was watching today told me he looked really good…her words…“so steady and soft at all three gaits.”

I haven’t used the whip the past two rides and have instead gone back to my spurs, but I’ve barely had to use them. He’s literally a different horse under me. I’m hoping that eventually we’ll strike a balance and be calm and cool (no spooking) but also forward and energetic. I feel like we’ve gotten to the other side of the ground pole in that Warwick Schiller video, and I’ve got my horse woken up and moving forward, but now I need to work to get him calmed back down.

I’m trying to stick to an every-other-day riding schedule with hand-walking, ground work, and lunging on the days I don’t ride. He’s still got a tender spot over his right hip and loin area, which I’m hoping the chiro can address on the 21st, but it doesn’t seem to bother him when I’m riding. He gets a nice rub down with Sore No More after our rides and lunging sessions, and seems to really appreciate that.

Anyway! I think progress is being made!

[SuzieQNutter]

Another great update.

Yay, see it didn’t take long to get him forward with a touch.

The going backwards is a big no no and for the time being, until you get him truly forward I would not be taking him where that happens

Once they get it into their head that it is a good thing to do. It is very scary. They will go backwards. If you kick they will go faster. If you pull the reins they go faster and they keep going until they either fall over something, hit something or fall into something. So forward only to get it ingrained.

Now that he is more forward how is he going in the arena? Is he still struggling and kicking sand?

What do you do when lunging? Are you using side reins? Are you praising for slow as well as forward?
Is he tracking up? Is his poll the highest? How often?

Are you smiling while you ride because you are having fun. It sounds like you are except for the going backwards bit.

[RhythmNCruise]

@SuzieQNutter

Another great update.

Yay, see it didn’t take long to get him forward with a touch.

The going backwards is a big no no and for the time being, until you get him truly forward I would not be taking him where that happens

Once they get it into their head that it is a good thing to do. It is very scary. They will go backwards. If you kick they will go faster. If you pull the reins they go faster and they keep going until they either fall over something, hit something or fall into something. So forward only to get it ingrained.

Now that he is more forward how is he going in the arena? Is he still struggling and kicking sand?

What do you do when lunging? Are you using side reins? Are you praising for slow as well as forward?
Is he tracking up? Is his poll the highest? How often?

Are you smiling while you ride because you are having fun. It sounds like you are except for the going backwards bit.

Yeah, the going backwards thing is baffling. I will say, he mostly stops and tries to wheel around, and only goes backwards when I get him turned back facing it and am trying to keep him from wheeling again. But still, like you said, it’s a no-no, and in those tight areas it really could be devastating. He walked this same path many times before without so much as an ear twitch at anything, and truly I know what he was spooking at both times: upturned water tank and landscaping trucks and trailers (on a very windy, brisk day with the mowers zooming around too…he was already amped up about that). If we’d have been in a more open area, it would’ve been easy for him to give these things a wide berth and me to school him until I could get him to accept them and relax. But with both of them “getting” him on a narrow path with no where to go but directly past them, it definitely increases the trouble he can get us into.

So funny because even before reading your reply I was thinking to myself that I’d simply go up to our favorite riding field the other way, where there are no big ditches for use to fall into if something spooks him. It’s a wider path and between two fence lines, so pretty safe place to spook, and for me to do a one-rein stop thing and circle him until he gets his brain screwed back on again.

I have news about the arena. Other riders including the one who owns the arena, have complained about the footing as well, and it has been discussed that it’s not good and will be hauled out and replaced with better footing. I don’t know the specifics because I’m still new at this barn, but apparently it’s been a topic of discussion before. The other riders agree that the footing (which has “the wrong kind of sand” I was told) slides under the horses’ feet and makes it difficult for them. One rider’s mare almost went down in it recently when her back-end starting sliding in it and she got bogged down and couldn’t right herself. I learned all of this last night, after I’d taken my guy up there and lunged him in the ring just to see what was going on with him when he traveled in it. It was exactly like they said, the horse’s foot hits the ground and slides forward down into the sand several inches, so he’s always fighting to keep his balance. Reminds me of us trying to walk through deep sand at the beach.

So, needless to say, I’m not riding in there until the footing is better. I haven’t worked him in the other arena, which has better footing, because he got trimmed recently and that arena has a harder packed surface that he was a bit ouchy on. I walked him into that arena today after we had our ride in the field, and he felt okay, so I may try to ride him in there next time (Tuesday…tomorrow is ground work day). I have a sneaking suspicion he won’t be nearly as forward in there, as it’s kind of his “ho-hum” place on the farm. It’ll be the test to see if he really IS forward, or he’s just “fresh” up in the field.

The lunging yesterday was my first time lunging him in tack in…I don’t even know how many years. He’s 12 years old, so…maybe 8 years? LOL. It’s something I just never did when I rode him as a youngster at my place, and even at shows I would just lunge to get the silliness out without tack (don’t like him to think silliness is okay in tack), and then get on. I looked for my side reins, but apparently they didn’t make the move with us, so he just had the lunge line through the bit and over his crown to the opposite side and went around looking cute (LOL) I lunged him in the round pen, which I decided was way too deep for him to have any prayer of working properly, then in a little grass paddock, where he was much happier, and then up in the covered arena, where I could see the sliding in the footing. Despite not having him going into any sort of contact, he was basically stretched long and low at all three gates for the majority of the time. It was nice to actually see him go, especially since I’m keeping an eye on his back. He was very relaxed the entire time, which is basically all I wanted. I’m doing it as much to get/keep him “legged up” without aggravating his back (he’s not the only one who has come back from a long break from riding…I hadn’t been on a horse in about 3 years either, which I sometimes forget, so my riding wasn’t doing him any favors).

So, anyway…I have contemplated side reins, but he does tend to back off and curl behind them sometimes (same with the contact when I ride him) so, I don’t want to encourage that. I had donut side reins, and thought maybe the regular elastic ones might be more “giving” and allow more stretch into the bit and less curl behind it? I don’t know.

Anyway, yes, I was smiling! I smile even when he’s being a booger and spooking at things. He’s an honest boy. He doesn’t want to hurt anyone and doesn’t pull dirty tricks or anything like that. When he spooks, he’s genuinely afraid of whatever it is that he sees, and he gives me ample warning. This is him: “Hold up, what the??..Mom…What’s that?..Mom…I’m stopping…Mom…what the HELL is that?..Mom…I can’t…Mom…it’s gonna eat us…Mom…hang on I’ll get us out of here!” And he gets two and a half strides, and I can stop and turn him around and we start having a discussion about it, which so far knock wood has resulted in us safely by whatever it is and carrying on with a nice ride.

Oh my gosh, this is a long and rambling post! I apologize, but thank you so much for taking your time to read and offer great advice, SuzieQ! It means a lot! Like I said, when I ride him on Tuesday, I’ll do so in the arena with the better footing and see how it goes. Fingers crossed that will still have some of the forward in there.

[SuzieQNutter]

I agree about not lunging him in the arena they are complaining about, it can cause injuries, so nobody should be working a horse in there until it is fixed.

You asked about the use of side reins so this is my response.

If he is curling his head in the side reins, they are too tight or he is not forward enough or both. Never walk in side reins it can cause a lateral walk. Never pull a horses head in with them to become vertical that is not what they are for.

I will get controversial here. So it is up to you if you take my advice or throw it in the bin.

With the donut side reins if you cut off the donut, they then have solid reins behind them. That is what I do.

Elasticized side reins teach a horse to pull and lean. Solid side reins teach them correct contact if lunged correctly and to submit to the bit.

Horses learn with a release of pressure. They reach the length of the donut, they give a pull, the donut gives, voila they learn to pull.

In solid side reins they pull, the rein holds until they give and when they give they get the release of pressure and they learn to give.

Remember in side reins 10 minutes is equal to an hour of riding.

You always start without side reins. Walk both directions, trot both directions and canter both directions. The horse MUST go forwards and never backwards.

Then too loose side reins, trot both directions, canter both directions. This is important even with a seasoned horse. They must be in a forward frame of mind. This tests that they will go forward with reins on, as they don’t have a grass seed stuck in their mouth, etc, etc. You do not ever put working side reins in working position on a well behaved horse.

Then do up 2 holes and trot both directions and canter both directions, what you want is the horse going forward into the rein, not the rein pulling their head back. You want the poll the highest. The side reins should be the same length, however you should see the inside rein slacken. When going forward you want the hindlegs to go into the hoof steps left behind from the front legs.

Then it is most important to take the reins off and walk again in both directions. This keeps a quiet horse on the lunge and with the side reins on you have done halt to trot transitions and you don’t want them trotting off unless you say so.

If the horse has never had side reins on they will not go along vertical, Twiggy went horizontally to the sky. But over a week she started to drop and that was her learning correct contact not being pulled in by the reins. She ended up being a dressage horse without me getting on her as hubby had banned me from riding her as too dangerous. She was so lovely to ride afterwards.

When Sim is misbehaving because next door takes HIS foals away and everything is wrong in his world, the above gets thrown out of the window I get the tack on him, do the side reins up 2 holes tighter and send him out to canter, until he starts thinking again.

I haven’t had to do that for years. John Chatterton said to leave him loose and pull and release with the lead rope in this side and behind and through the other side and clipped above on a halter with round metal parts as I asked what to do. I was doing the above but had to get hubby to hold him as Sim knew he could get away from me and I am a big girl with a lot if strength. On a normal day I can tack him without a halter on.

After lunging him and getting on to ride him he would then canter for 3 days and not graze.

The pulling and release didn’t seem to work at the start but over 15 minutes it was less and I was able to lead him. When I let him go he only cantered for a day. He seems to have gotten better each time and now he doesn’t seem to react that badly at all and I can’t remember the last time.

[endlessclimb]

@SuzieQNutter

Re the elasticized reins.

I get what you’re trying to say, and trying to do. But elastic or doughnut reins do not “give” when they shouldn’t. They’re still a fixed length, and to completely release the tension both an elastic and solid side rein, set equally, will have to be X length minus N.

The elastic allows a horse to have more range in where they find comfortable in how much contact they prefer. It’s going to offer more to the horse in terms of options. The solid reins, while the horse can still have a range of tensions on it, it wont be as finite, and IMO will encourage them to get behind the contact or lean on it, because they lack the finesse to find the sweet spot on their own.

At least for my elastic side reins, I’d be lucky to get 2" out of the stretch. It’s way more forgiving for a horse who is fussy or learning. An educated horse might be able to find that 1/8" sweet spot on solid reins, but not a youngster.

Just wanted to provide an alternate concept on why elastic on side reins isn’t inherently a bad thing. It allows wiggle room for a horse who is learning. I don’t want them to punish themselves in the mouth while making a mistake. It’s why I run with a stretchy leash with my dog, too. She isn’t learning to pull, she’s getting a warning before the thing goes taut.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, honestly I probably won’t use side reins at all. Lunging for me is either to blow the silly out of him (round pen) or to keep him active and give me a chance to watch him on days I’m giving his back a break (until that’s addressed anyway). He’s very quiet when lunged, and stretches down, like I said, so that’s good enough for me. It’s already very easy to “get his head down” as it were when riding him. Not true and through “on the bit” of course, but kind of a “fake it til we make it” frame that he will go into easily, and is a result of him always being kind of behind the leg and plugging along. He was started with “low and slow and obedient” as my only criteria for how he behaved, and now I’m asking him to pick himself up and move forward and wow…it’s different.

Thanks to both of you for your great advice and insight!

[RhythmNCruise]

Another update. The spooking was off the charts absurd today, and I didn’t even ride. The wind was howling again, but that’s really not an excuse for this horse. He’s been absolutely fine with windy weather in the past, even when it’s cold.

I’m almost 99.99% sure it’s the feed, and thankfully, my wonderful BO is willing to work with me to get him switched to something more suitable.

History: I’ve raised him since he was a half-starved yearling, and he’s eaten nothing but quality hay (timothy, orchard, and some alfalfa), alfalfa pellets and/or cubes, and Triple Crown Senior. So, basically, a grain-free diet his entire life as before I got him he was on a ragged round bale of coastal that looked better suited to cows (no offense to cows). The one and only time he got any sort of grain was when my feed store ran out of TC Senior and I got TC Complete instead. I suddenly had a more forward, but also spookier horse than I’d ever had before. Switched him back…spookiness gone.

In the couple of years before I sold my place and moved to the new barn, he was eating just forage and fat in the form of alfalfa cubes/pellets and Omega Horseshine, and as much pasture as he wanted (TONS of pasture). His barn mate couldn’t eat regular baled hay, so it was always alfalfa cubes in the winter and just some alfalfa pellets for “grain” in the months when they had pasture. Horses were fat, shiny, and healthy.

When we first moved to the new barn, there was plenty of pasture there, so he grazed and got a ration balancer (Essential K). He was fine. Good boy. Quiet and calm when he got settled in. When the pasture went away, he had hay added, and he was fine. Somewhere along the way, BO started switching him onto Tribute’s Senior GC Plus feed, which is a complete feed that has oats as it’s first ingredient and also has MSM in it (along with glucosamine and chondroitin). I’ve since learned that many horses can’t tolerate MSM, and I’m now wondering if mine is one of them. At any rate, with the oats, it’s a much more “high octane” grain-based feed than he’s ever had before. And I noticed two things: one: he was a little more tense and “up”, though not terrible, and two: his poop became looser than normal.

He got through the winter fine, but did drop a little weight, but nothing too concerning, about normal for him actually…and he’s kind of a fatty when the pasture is up. But this spring when the grass just started coming up, the BO stopped giving hay, and my guy dropped some more weight. So, understandably, she started increasing his amount of grain to fatten him back up. And the spooking increased quite a lot and he started getting really gassy. Like “silent but deadly” stinkers every few minutes. Poop was still loose (should have been over that if it was the feed change that did it).

So! After today’s trials and tribulations, when he was just so reactive that I could feel his heart pounding through the lunge line as I was holding him while he stared at whatever he thought was about to eat him (in the distance), I went to my BO with tears in my eyes asking if we could adjust his feed. She was so nice about it and more than happy to oblige. Earlier she’d had to jump out of her chair in the barn when my guy was losing his mind in the cross-ties because the horses were running in the pasture)…so she’d seen how crazy he can get.

sigh I’m so happy that at least I can make the change and we can know if it’s diet related. The “forward” has been nice…and I’ve been able to handle the spooking so far, but today was a different kind of crazy, and the unpredictability is starting to wear me down. It’s not fun. I want my lazy horse back, LOL.

I’m supposed to ride tomorrow, and hopefully I still can. Fingers crossed.

[IPEsq]

Don’t panic yet. You have been trying to light up a rather dull pokey horse, and in doing so, he’s lit up in good and bad ways. The key is to find the balance between the sensitivity/responsiveness and the quietness/dullness. And to have him looking to you for guidance, not either blowing you off or forgetting about you when something else concerns him.

I’m not above some compromise even with the stoic ones. Like friend’s horse had tie back surgery but still kind of needs to warm up in a WP kind of trot and hack up a bunch of crud for a bit then he’s ready to go to work. Applying too much pressure during that time will tend to backfire. Working on the ground is a good idea in playing with how big or small your ask is and how big or small of a reaction you want from that.

[SuzieQNutter]

Take him off grain until he is back to normal and then add slowly one at a time so as you know what affects him.

Lunging without side reins means a fit horse that is not in work. The same for hot horses that are ridden in walk, trot and canter and jump, but are not collected and doing work.

You end up with a happy fit horse that is not fun for the rider.

@endless climb. I said it was controversial and what I do. The horses I have retrained were lunged in elasticized side reins and not by me.

So even though trained to medium there was a lean and a pull.

Horses I have trained and retrained with solid side reins do not lean or pull. Yes I have trained youngsters and green horses to contact. Also horses with broken necks from draw reins and one poor boy with a running martingale knotted to his chest.

With me there is no shortening the rein too much. There is no punishing themselves. As I said the mare Twiggy went around horizontally to the sky. I don’t think you can get more of a range of motion than that. She did not under stand or come down the first day or the second day. As she relaxed she started to learn what contact is with them. Over a week later vertical and not horizontal and the reins were not tightened. Not once. People get too impatient and if it doesn’t work in 15 minutes. They tighten them.

Even with my seasoned boy. Listening to me and forward into the bridle he is vertical. If he starts being silly, if out of work and something happening next door, he can go above the bit and be high headed. He is not pulled in at all or behind the bit.

Which is why I say people should be taught how to use them, not just put them on, do them up and send them out.

[SuzieQNutter]

To me it looks like the Spanish Riding School uses solid side reins. The rein where it is adjusted is taken down around the rein up and through creating a knot so the excess is pointing down.

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[RhythmNCruise]

@IPEsq

Don’t panic yet. You have been trying to light up a rather dull pokey horse, and in doing so, he’s lit up in good and bad ways. The key is to find the balance between the sensitivity/responsiveness and the quietness/dullness. And to have him looking to you for guidance, not either blowing you off or forgetting about you when something else concerns him.

I’m not above some compromise even with the stoic ones. Like friend’s horse had tie back surgery but still kind of needs to warm up in a WP kind of trot and hack up a bunch of crud for a bit then he’s ready to go to work. Applying too much pressure during that time will tend to backfire. Working on the ground is a good idea in playing with how big or small your ask is and how big or small of a reaction you want from that.

I agree that I’m willing to compromise, and honestly if he wasn’t so doggone inconsistent and his reactions weren’t getting so troubling, I wouldn’t mind him getting wide-eyed and snorting a little bit now and then. But today was absolutely nuts.

Several months ago, I could ride him by anything, and even if it was scary, he’d just give it a look and scoot by. One cold, windy day they were putting a drain pipe in the driveway next to where we ride (same area with ditch and fence and not much room for error). It was a cold, windy day, and they were making a horrible racket shoveling gravel off of a metal trailer. Any horse would have had trouble with it, and my guy just picked his head up a little and jigged when they made the loud noise, and then went right back to moseying on the buckle. There is no way on earth he would even get close to such a scene now, much less walk past it with hardly a second thought.

This is a horse I was riding bareback with a halter and lead rope in the middle of the winter and he would jog around with his head down like a western pleasure horse. You couldn’t pay me to get on him bareback now. And I have been riding him bareback since he was two.

Today, once he got blown up because of the horses in the pasture (and they were just trotting and it only lasted a few seconds) that he was a nervous wreck for the rest of my time out there. I lunged him, hand walked him and did everything I could think of to get his brain back. I usually hand graze him for a while after where the good clover is (and no, this doesn’t make him hyper/spooky, his old pasture at my place was loaded with clover)…but he wouldn’t even graze. Just stood there with his eyes wide, looking uncomfortable and freaked out. When I put him out in the pasture, he usually stays by the gate and lets me pet him, but as soon as I took the halter off today, he turned and left.

He’s been at this barn for 7 months, and he was ten times crazier today than he was the day we brought him there. He acts like he’s terrified of everything.

I agree that his fitness level could be a factor, and the new way of being ridden, but he isn’t just “up” he’s downright anxious. And it’s on the ground, in the barn, around the barn, in the round pen, around the farm. The only places he seems consistently relaxed are in his pasture and in the outdoor (uncovered) dressage ring. I walked him into that ring today and he immediately dropped his head and calmed down.

Anyway, I’m sorry for all my rambling. I’m truly hoping the feed change at least helps mellow him out. He’s not a happy horse like this. It’s tough to see one I raised, broke, and trained suddenly so anxious and upset all the time. I want my happy, relaxed boy back.

ETA: Just discovered the NSC of the feed he’s getting is 22%. Yikes. It’s very similar to Triple Crown’s Training Formula, which is also oat-based and described as “high energy.” So, spooking or not, I’m glad he’s coming off of this stuff.

[SuzieQNutter]

It does sound like the feed ‘has gone to his head’.

With that it will take him as long to get out of it as it took him to get into it, so stopping the grain will not cure him overnight.

But you will get your old horse back, so good news there.

[RhythmNCruise]

Another update: I feel like I need to change the name of this thread since it’s no longer about the whip at all. I don’t even carry a whip anymore (always hated it because I’m so uncoordinated with it).

Anyway, horse is still being transitioned to new (well…actually old) feed. Today was warmer, no wind, and we still had a bit of a meltdown in the barn before I tacked up. He was quiet, quiet, quiet, then all of a sudden he acted like he was going to die if he didn’t get out of the barn. It was bizarre. I took him out, let him look around, had to insist that he come back in, and then he behaved, but looked mildly anxious the rest of the time while tacking up. When I turned to walk him out of the barn, he tried to scoot away, like something was after him. I walked him back in and out a few times until he did it quietly (but still worried), and as usual, the farther we got from the barn the more relaxed he was, though I noticed he was still kind of “looky”.

We rode once around the dressage arena, then headed up to the big field around the covered arena and had a lovely, forward ride. He really is fun to ride now! I hope that he doesn’t go back to being a slug-o-saurus if/when his feed change takes effect. If I can have a sane, confident, relaxed horse in the barn (he hates the damn barn!), and all of those things plus active and forward while being ridden…man! He’ll be perfect!

Two thoughts that I have about my critter:

1. He may need front shoes to go comfortably in our outdoor dressage arena. I don’t know what the footing is called, like stone dust or blue stone or whatever? Anyway, I think one of the main reasons he’s not as forward in there is because his feet are a bit tender on that footing. Not entirely sure though. We just walked in there today, and he was more forward than usual in there, but it was soooo dusty, and he kind of shuffles along. As soon as he gets out onto the grass, his stride opens up and he moves more forward. I’ve just gotten him a good biotin supplement that he’ll start tonight, as he really does have kind of “meh” feet (all white). He’s never had shoes, so I’m not willing to make a hasty decision there. I may give the supplement some time to work, see if his feet improve and if he gets more comfortable barefoot in the ring. I’d rather not put shoes on, but if he needs them I’ll do it.

2. The BO and I were discussing him today, and she mentioned that at feeding time last night he was fine and then suddenly saw something (she couldn’t see anything) waaaaay off in the distance towards our neighboring farm. According to her he froze like a statue, grew to 18 hands all of a sudden (not literally thank god, LOL), his eyes got big, he started snorting, and then he took off running in the direction he was staring and stopped and just stared.

Now, I’ve been around horses for 33 years, so I know they can spook and act like goof balls. Even back at my place where he was raised, something weird in the distance could set him (or any of mine) off and they’d act like ninnies. I’m not worried about it. He’s a horse.

But my feeling about him lately is that he feels like it’s his job to be on the lookout all the time. Like he cannot let his guard down. And I got to thinking that for the past 11 years of his 12yo life, he’s lived with my two older geldings, both of which were dominant to him. He was low man on the totem pole. My oldest gelding was always the vigilant look-out. He kept the herd safe. My middle gelding was the most unconcerned horse that ever lived, very secure and calm, and also definitely the “boss” over my current gelding (even moreso than my vigilant lookout guy was).

So, he always took his cues from them and never had to worry about anything because they told him what was okay and what wasn’t.

Now, for the first time in his life, he’s the dominant horse in the pasture. He goes out with an OTTB and a little Arab mare, and they’re both pretty chill horses, but my guy seems to have taken over the look-out/leader role in the group.

No idea if there is anything to this and if it could explain some of the spookiness, but it did dawn on me that his entire life has changed in ways I need to slow down and think about.

Tomorrow he gets spring shots and then a couple of days off. If the weather is good and he’s okay, I might ride lightly on Sunday, or maybe just do ground work. Next week I’ll ride as much as I can, and then on Thursday he gets his first adjustment (chiro and acupuncture)…so he’ll get a couple of days off after that as well for some more ground work. I’m excited to see how he handles the chiro/acupuncture, and if it helps him any.

Then at the end of the month we’ve got a working equitation clinic with obstacles! Should be entertaining!

[Dr_Doolittle]

Hi OP. I just read through this entire thread for the first time, with interest - it’s certainly been an interesting “roller coaster ride”, and thanks for providing such specific details!

Some thoughts: re: his feet, you might try using Keratex on the soles as a hardener - it sounds like the outdoor ring footing is harder and more abrasive, so it may be wearing his feet down quicker (and he also may be getting more ouchy as a result), though a hoof supplement like Farrier’s Formula - or something with Biotin, Methionine and Lysine - would be a good idea in general. I have an older mare now retired (22) who I did a lot with, all barefoot; eventing, dressage, hunters, jumpers - but she has exceptional feet with hard, thick soles. If he has good feet and has been barefoot all this time with no issues, a supplement and a hoof hardener might turn the trick. (My mare was only shod for 2 years starting at age 11 because I was running Prelim and needed to use studs for traction. Her hoof quality was already excellent, but I also fed her flax because it helps them grow a good foot. You might try adding flax to his diet, it has many benefits )

(Two of her hooves are white - the old adage that “white feet are softer” isn’t actually true, they just show bruising more easily due to the lack of pigment which is probably why the old wive’s tale persists…)

Keep in mind that it will take awhile to see results with a supplement (it takes them 9 months to a year to grow an entire hoof) - but first try the Keratex (or Venice Turpentine) and see whether that helps. Horses should be shod IF they need the protection for the footing they’ll be working on (and there are other reasons), but if you can keep him comfortable barefoot, all the better.

Diet: there are horses that react to MSM, take him off of it immediately. I have used it on my last 3 horses with no ill effects (and I like it for its general anti-inflammatory properties), but it can definitely cause crazy behavior in some horses. Otherwise, a good RB along with flax (and alfalfa cubes) should cover his nutritional bases if he’s in good weight and on good pasture, supplemented with hay? If he needs additional calories now, you might try a fat supplement, “cool calories” rather than a starchy grain with a high NCS.

I think you are onto something with the herd status thing! (Good for you for thinking outside the box.) One of my horses was one of these, what I like to call an “insecure Alpha”. Those that are BORN Alpha (like my two mares, mother and daughter, sigh) are generally more secure - but an older horse who is “suddenly thrust into the role” can become VERY insecure, herd bound, and spooky; they become obsessed with their herd because that’s their new “job”, but they aren’t completely comfortable with this new gig. Ground work is your friend in this case, get his focus on YOU, move his feet, get his brain working, work on getting his head down so he can drain off that adrenaline response, breathe, relax. Once they are in that head in the air, snorting, adrenalized, reactive brain state they are VERY hard to reach!

See Warwick Schiller for this I have done a lot of TTEAM with my horses when they were young to help them to turn on their thinking brain, drain anxiety, relax, focus on me (and on their feet), they have many simple exercises that may be beneficial.

I use longeing on occasion, but it’s not my automatic go-to. If you just run them around to get the ya-yas out, this can result in a fit horse with a tight topline who spins around unbalanced when on the line (not helpful for training), though it sounds like your guy is pretty chill on the longeline. I instead use groundwork before getting on for my older, more trained horses if and when I feel like I need to get their “head in the game” and their focus on me (or if I feel like they may start out distracted); you don’t have to spend a lot of time on it, just 10 minutes of it, watching your horse for signs that he is relaxing, brain and body - licking, soft eye, dropped head, soft topline - and now receptive to going to work (you know him well so that will be easy for you to determine.) I do gentle lateral work from the ground both to soften and supple and also to get the horse more responsive to the whip aid; mentioned earlier in the thread.

I am a little concerned about the breathing issues from your descriptions. Might be work getting the vet to check him out, and there might be a medication that will help with this (this is not normal!)

Another thing that can produce sudden behavior changes is ulcers - either gastic ulcers or hindgut ulcers (acidosis), which can be triggered by change in feed or the sugar content of the grass. Something else to discuss with your vet. Change of feed, change of work, change of environment (new barn, new herd), any and all stressors - can trigger ulcers.

Chiro and acupuncture might be helpful for his soreness (and have the saddle fit checked), but if he his glutes are sore, that is is good(ish) sign; though it also may be muscle soreness from the overly deep footing. Good to hear that they are changing it out, that can be very dangerous to work in, muscle soreness is the least of your worries (tendon and ligament strain, already discussed on here.)

As for the riding, it sounds like you have been making steady progress up to this point but there is clearly something “amiss” ATM, possibly relating to one of the above ^^^ things.

You are a responsible and caring owner to be so committed to your boy, you clearly love him and have a good relationship, good for you.

Best of luck!!!