Linda is my hero
Here is the UDBB link:
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=123658
388 posts and counting.
But this whole thing about the methods being secret unless you pay for the secrets bothers me. Classical dressage people don’t have a corner on the secrets, or the one and only way to do things being their secret way. Gosh its been around for 2,500 years or so. It is also interesting that a number of people who used to advertise “Parelli courses” have now distanced themselves from him. And he distances them by sending cease and desist letters if they mention his name in anunauthorized manner. The true horsemen I admire (natural, new wave, classical, whatever) are happy to share.
Now somebody will say I’m not prepared to pay for lessons, books, videos - blah, blah, blah.
Now, before anyone says it, just don’t - I am not saying if you aren’t doing the 7 games, you can’t achieve the training scale. There are many roads to Rome.
Sadly the point that a lot of people get rather too late is that there is also more than one Rome and if you try to travel down 12 different routes at the same time you ain’t gonna arrive - like ever.
If anyone does work out a tried and tested method of teaching everything a trainer has learnt in 30 years of experience at top level dressage in one lesson with no need to come back - please let me know. I’d buy that at almost any cost it would free up so much time for learning swahili etc
Meanwhile i am still no further ahead in my understanding of the 7 games, i don’t do PM so please someone post! My guess is that they are about building trust, familiarity, confidence between horse and handler which leads to less fear in both horse and rider when ridden.
All well and good but this basic trust and confidence is normal between the dressage riders and horses i see. You don’t need a special stick or bunch of toys. It’s nothing special just young horse stuff, what you do before training starts.
A mosh pit and ballet are both dancing. Does that make them the same?
OK fiona just for you-the 7 Games (what others call common sense)…
The Friendly Game-be able to touch your horse ALL over-ears, flanks, etc
(There is also the Extreme Friendly Game which is basically desensitizing the horse to scary things-opening umbrellas, bicycles, whatever)
The Porcupine Game-get your horse to move off direct pressure-If I touch your shoulder, step away from pressure. If I pull on halter, move off the poll pressure…obviously the goal to be able to get him to respond to a lighter and lighter touch…so when I get on, he knows to move off my leg, move off rein pressure, for example. It is about responding to direct touch.
The Driving Game-get a horse to move off ‘rhythmic pressure or energy’ without actually touching him…if I wave my hands, fingers, shake something…he should step away calmly-not like a cat is attacking-again the goal teach him to step away from a thought or look would be the ultimate goal. This allows me to direct his movement from a distance…if I ‘lunge him’ and wave a whip, does he know move away.
The Yo Yo Game-back a horse up and get him to come back to me in a straight line, even energy both back and front. He should not be balky in either direction-it should be very soft backing and returning. This is the very very first steps of building the idea of smooth transitions. It is also for safety…if a horse is pushy in my space, this teaches him to back off me.
The Circling Game-yup…go in a circle. The biggest difference between lunging and the circling game is the purpose…the circling game teaches a horse to go at a speed, gait, whatever, until further notice without the person clucking him along each step. Later, this game progresses to teaching more correct “driving on a circle” that would consider bend, fram etc
The Sideways Game-pretty much like it sounds…step over sideways…teaches the beginnings of lateral work
The Squeeze Game-go in between two things…this prepares a horse for things like loading in a trailer, to travel on a trail between tight spaces, etc
These are the FIRST things you would teach a horse-ideally a young horse…it is the basic step one, the beginnings.
Once you get this ‘online’ you would then want to teach these at liberty (first a round pen, then a wild open field if you wish, etc)…then you have them undersaddle.
So obviously these are just ingredients to bigger lessons for a horse…the circling game for example would progress to transition or changes of direction…just like you do on line or on a horse…
The 7 Games are taught in Level 1. There are several tasks to make sure you get it and your horse gets it. The ideal time frame to ‘pass’ level 1 is 1-2 weeks.
In addition to the 7 Games there a 4 “savvies”—online, liberty, freestyle and finesse. There are skills in each savvy that incorporate all kinds of combinations of the ‘games’
Online is obvious.
Liberty is like I said, anything where the horse is free to leave-it is about trust and knowing how much pressure to use so your horse doesn’t leave you.
Freestyle is loose about learning ‘gross motor skills’ of riding…so it isn’t about teaching ‘frame’-it is about can the rider maintain and independent seat (often using bareback)…can the horse and rider communicate without yanking on the reins (at the extreme this is bridleless riding–but it is about teaching the horse to understand seat and weight aids)
Finesse…this is the ‘fancy’ stuff…teaching a horse to move properly in a correct frame, with correct bend
The Parelli program has different levels-each progressing in difficulty in each savvy. So for example in Level one you should be able to put your horse on a circle online and have him stop and return to you when you ask.
In level 3 you may do circles and changes of direction, with correct bend and posture at liberty in a 5 acre field.
In Level one you learn to walk, trot and stop your horse in a halter…in level 3 you might do a small course of jumps bridleless. Again this is all freestyle.
Level 2 introduces finesse-how to get a horse to bend, use his hind end, get in a proper ‘frame’ (for lack of a better way of putting it)…at first you just learn bend on a circle, then in Level 3 you eventually progress to half-passes at the canter.
See the progression?
You are right, you need to pick a path. You can always come back and try another path if you find the one you chose is too full of brambles and you didn’t bring your scythe 
Meanwhile i am still no further ahead in my understanding of the 7 games, i don’t do PM so please someone post! My guess is that they are about building trust, familiarity, confidence between horse and handler which leads to less fear in both horse and rider when ridden.
You are exactly right - trust, confidence, relaxation, thinking but not assuming, on both the human and horse’s part. It’s as much about the person as it is about the horse, really, teaching the person to get and leave their emotions out of the situation. Here are the 7 games, in a nutshell, and some of their practical applications:
1 - Friendly Game - desensitize the horse to all sorts of commotion going on around him, directed at him, in front of him, behind him, etc. How many times has someone had a test screwed up because a plastic bag blew across the ring? Or a child ran around? How many horses are afraid of a whip? This game is played in increasingly stimulating circumstances, with the goal to never do more than the horse is mentally capable of handling at any given time, with the goal to increase the horse’s tolerance to “stuff”.
2 - Porcupine Game - basically teaching the horse to yield to physical pressure. You sort of need that to get a horse to go forward, sideways, and backwards, with whatever body part you’re dealing with. How many people have trouble making circles because their horse doesn’t know how to move away from the pressure of the outside aids? How many horses are hard to bridle because they won’t lower their head? How many horses get stuck at lateral movements because they don’t understand to move away from 1 leg?
3 - Driving Game - similar to the Porcupine game, but the pressure isn’t an actual touch, it’s presence, movement, intent. How many horses won’t bend correctly on the lunge line, instead bowing out? This game teaches them that if they are doing that, and you “pressure” their midsection, they should move the midsection (and only the midsection) out, creating a more proper bend. This one isn’t so much about ridden work, since you’re always in contact with the horse, but it has endless applications on the ground.
4 - Yo-You Game - the one most made fun of Too many people go “what a fruitcake, wiggling your finger at the horse to get him to back up” and that just shows how little they know about it Sure, the initial application looks silly - teach the horse to back up with the slightest hint of you pressuring him (non-contact, aka literally wagging your finger at him) but the other half of the game, one just as important, is bringing him into you. This teaches the horse that you are a safe zone, and as you intensify the applications of this game, you not only are able to get such a horse away from you when necessary, you can also draw him into you when things get nuts. How many people complain about horses invading their space and they can’t keep them out? They get feet stepped on and get bumped into doors/walls/etc. This also has ridden applications that are excellent - isn’t it nice to have your horse be able to canter down the long side, halt at the end, and immediately go into a backup, all in a quiet, controlled, on-his-haunches manner? 
5 - Circle Game - this is another one that is highly bashed by those who don’t understand. It’s not lunging, if your definition of lunging is to either “blow off steam” or to build physical fitness. The purpose of this, ultimately, is to have the horse learn to stay at the gait and speed you asked for, and stay on the circle that you asked for. How many people lunge by constantly using the whip? How many people have trouble keeping their horse out on the circle, or the horse pulling to the outside? Wouldn’t it be nice to use your aids, ridden, to put the horse on a circle, and he stays there, without constantly being told, until you ask him to do something else? Isn’t it nice when you say “working trot please” and he goes “you got it” and stays there until you ask him to do something else?
6 - Sideways Game - move the forehand and the hind end sideways, either independently or together. I’m sure you see the benefits of teaching this
7 - Squeeze Game - the horse learns to “squeeze” between 2 objects - you and the fence, you and a barrel, you and a “name any scary object”. How many horses have trouble jumping a “skinny”? How many horses have trouble loading into a trailer? Ever known a horse to rush into and out of stalls? How many horses have you seen, at shows, spook when walking through a tight, scary space, such as between pedestrians and an announcers booth at a show?
All of those create a sane, thinking, confident horse, and the application of each game is endless. Everything a person does to/with a horse, ridden and groundwork, regardless of discipline, regardless of whether you call yourself NH, traditional, classical, etc, can be broken down into these 7 components. They might be so ingrained in your habits that you don’t even think about them, and that is the ultimate goal for anyone.
All well and good but this basic trust and confidence is normal between the dressage riders and horses i see. You don’t need a special stick or bunch of toys. It’s nothing special just young horse stuff, what you do before training starts.
You are right - this is not anything new. It’s a repackaging of old, timeless, tried and true things that people have been doing since Xenophon (or before). It’s not always normal between horse and rider though, and that is a big problem. GOOD horsepeople do start this stuff the minute they lay hands on a horse, regardless of his age. It’s ALL training, none of this groundwork is “before training starts” None of the ridden application of these games is “before training starts” - it’s ALL training.
It IS a fun way of packaging the basic concepts to make things make more sense to people. Tell someone they’re going to play a game, and it’s fun for them, as opposed to saying “Now Suzie, today we’re going to teach your horse how to lower his head” yawn Sure, these things seem silly to people who have been around horses since before they could walk, but not everyone has been there. Not everyone has access to good trainers who can teach this stuff. How many times, right on this board, have we seen people posing problems they’re having that exist solely because their trainer doesn’t have a clue how to teach a horse to not pull on the bit? None of it is rocket science, it’s just another way of packing good horsemanship that appeals to a lot of folks. And yes, do it incorrectly, and you’ll get a “bad” horse, just like anything else, including the “crank and yank” method of getting a horse “in a frame”
And best of all, when you get to Rome via the Parellian way, you too will be able to ride like LINDA! chicken flapping and all.
It’s groundwork, codified and for sale. Nothing wrong with it at all but it bears no more resemblance to the Training Scale than does a grocery list.
The training scale is not a list of exercises. The training scale is not just an attempt to be more asthetic. That’s just silly coming from someone who knows better.
Groundwork is essential, of course, and no one would claim otherwise and any decent trainer does these things without giving it a cute label but it’s part of the whole work, not a set of separate exercises.
For example, I teach my horses to drop their heads when I touch the poll and yield from my space because for me it’s basic groundwork . I can free lunge my horses and turn them with body language,etc. They back up when I point at the shoulder. No one owns that stuff . It’s regular groundwork. No porcupines were involved. It’s basic groundwork. No bridge is needed. It’s part of the work.
If you google you can find plenty of explanations for the training scale. Here is one, for example
Eggie, we really are on the same page in many ways with this, but the statement above is one I will argue till the cows come home, literally, with my life.
Groundwork is essential, but it is also the most overlooked, taken for granted, assumed-to-be-there-when-it’s-not aspect of horsemanship. Yes, all good trainers do it … and then promptly forget to teach it to their riding students. Well, they want to ride, so you start them off with what they want to do, and then promptly forget to go back to these essential basics.
I’ve said this many times, but I grew up eating, sleeping, breathing horses and was never introduced to this stuff. As an adult, I did some pretty “serious” riding and competing, but it wasn’t until I was 52 that I started to learn and appreciate the reasons behind, and the importance of correct groundwork to all riding. I’m lucky that I figured a good bit of it out on my own, but a lot of horses put up with a lot of pretty shoddy stuff from my side, in their efforts to teach me. And I know I am not alone in this.
So, as basic, fundamental and important it is, it is often–not always, but often–overlooked. I’m right up there with the rest of you who believe that the Parelli Machine has missed the mark, lost the trees in the marketing forest and attempted to write a simple recipe for something that is incredibly complex (which seldom works, no matter what complex task you’re trying to codify). But if the so-called natural horsemanship movement has brought the importance of correct ground work back into focus for the mainstream horse enthusiast, I can’t condemn it completely.
Thanks egon-
You beat me to it. In my view, the 7 games is stuff that properly raised horses should know as 2-3 year olds.
The training scale is about riding dressage. I don’t believe that “contact” or “straightness” is a concept anywhere in the 7 games or elsewhere in PNH-- and this is where the fundamental difference lies.
This thread was not about groundwork instruction being unnecessary . No one is saying that. It was about a particular ODD statement made by Mr. Z.
If he had just said this is a good system for teaching groundwork and so it’s beneficial for any rider, that would be a different matter. Instead, it appears he has O.D.ed on the questionable sugary beverage.
Why does it bug me so much? I guess because it suggests things about Mr. Z that I’d rather not believe.
Ok so help me out here…if all horses are to learn groundwork, where do they learn it? From the horse handler, correct?
Now unless everyone is born with this understanding…where does one learn groundwork?
Is it not ‘codified and for sale?’ Books? Trainers? The last I looked trainers get paid to teach this? Whether teaching the horse or giving lessons to the person?
Or is it just free?
Or is every person on this person just innately born and bred with this knowledge?
I am confused-how is it ok to buy a dressage book or pay a dressage trainer but it is a crime to sell it as a step by step program?
Help me out here please.
Parelli isn’t just about groundwork…but I do understand your distinction of why his statement left you cold.
Horses should learn basic ground work from the breeder or whereever they spend years 0-3.
Traditionally people have learned basic ground work at home or from Pony Club. 4-H. Riding camps. Good riding school programs etc.
There is nothing wrong with selling this knowledge in a step-by-step program. This thread is about disagreeing with WAZ that the 7 games are in any way substantively comparable with the dressage training scale.
No one is disagreeing with that. Heck, it’s stuff a weaner should know. But more often than not, that doesn’t happen. The “backyard” horse owners far outnumber those who grow up with horses, or who are put into solid horsemanship (groundwork as well as ridden work) from the day they decide to enter the horse world.
The training scale is about riding dressage.
The training scale is about good riding, period. How far you take each step depends on your intentions. Any properly ridden horse will have all components, but higher level the horse, the more of each higher step on the scale he will have. A GP dressage horse will have a LOT more collection than a Hunter. But a good Hunter cannot be a good hunter if he doesn’t have some level of each of those 6 components.
I don’t believe that “contact” or “straightness” is a concept anywhere in the 7 games or elsewhere in PNH-- and this is where the fundamental difference lies.
This statement is borne out of ignorance of the games in particular, and the proram in general, and that is why many folks get so aggressive about putting the program down. One of the rules of the Yo-yo game is to have the horse coming towards you and backing up in a straight line - not swinging the haunches either way. The rules of the squeeze game are to go straight over/through/under/between the intended objects. Heaven forbid you try to load a horse into a trailer when he’s going sideways. Go figure.
[quote=egontoast;2986535]This thread was not about groundwork instruction being unnecessary . No one is saying that. It was about a particular ODD statement made by Mr. Z.
[/quote]
Very true. But, it quickly turned into degrading the program becaues of what it is, or isn’t
If he had just said this is a good system for teaching groundwork and so it’s beneficial for any rider, that would be a different matter.
Maybe you haven’t really been paying attention - it’s not JUST about groundwork. As LMH and I both explained, it’s a foundation, and EVERY game has ridden applications with goals towards creating an unemotional rider who can clearly and effectively and, eventually, subtly give aids, and a horse who is unemotional, responsive, supple, forward. Gee, sounds a bit like dressage doesn’t it!
Instead, it appears he has O.D.ed on the questionable sugary beverage.
An opinion you are more than entitled to.
Why does it bug me so much? I guess because it suggests things about Mr. Z that I’d rather not believe.
that’s fine too. But, it’s apparent that these opinions are formed because you don’t understand even the basics of the PNH program (or any “marketed” NH program because they’re all basically the same).
Sorry JB-
It sounds to me like you don’t know what “contact” (i.e. with the bit?) and “straightness” means in dressage. :no:
Sorry, guess again Is my horse there? No, but we’re working on it - I know where we’re supposed to be, getting there is the journey. Sounds to me like you don’t know, and don’t want to know, the PNH program. That’s fine, it’s certainly not for everyone.
[QUOTE=JB;2986639]
One of the rules of the Yo-yo game is to have the horse coming towards you and backing up in a straight line - not swinging the haunches either way. [/QUOTE]
That is, the yo-yo game teaches tools for making and keeping the horse straight, without physically pushing him around.
The rules of the squeeze game are to go straight over/through/under/between the intended objects.
That is, one of the goals of the squeeze game is to learn tools to make the horse go forward and straight–without physically pushing him around.
And learning to do these things with minimal aids and to use pressure and release to effect control of the horse’s body without tension can teach a heck of a lot about the nature of conversational contact, even if it isn’t always throught the hands, reins and bit.
