They do laterally bend–but the degree of the bending was thought to be much greater until veterinary studies showed otherwise (only like 2-5 degrees, I think.) There is a good deal more axial rotation that goes on. Further edification for those interested-
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/BioMechbend1.html
I definitely agree that it is all relative. We are talking about degrees of “straightness.”
Ya know, I think that the Koolade is beginning to wear off quite a few folks because I just read on naturaldressage forum that there is a massive baleout going on because all of a sudden level 3 needs to be revamped and that alot of students have become disenchanted with old Pat and Linda and are going over to Karen Rolf. Concerning “monkey riding” too. I googled it. “Monkee Riding” = Taking the reins and leaning into the horse withers until the horse “gives”. The instructors are not happy teaching this stuff. Geez—I wonder why.
Smack of a western “head setting” to me. Following the training scale—I don’t think so and alot of the instructors are beginning to see the P’s program as not well thought out. Maybe this is why they need Waz to get back the confidence students have lost in them and their “Natural Horsemanship” program.
Furthermore, what’s this that in level three you must use a cradle bridle and a confidence bit. What the hay—a regular old bridle and snaffle won’t work??? Is the cradle bridle majikal or something? Also, on this site they are saying that when the P’s are questioned about dressage they just keep emphasizing that the students should “listen to their horses for the answers”. LOL!!!
Yea, just listen to your horses but keep writing out the check. My God, this is rich!!
Jambo. What noma! Parelli ulabu again seems to be causing kasheshe. 
Coreen - not kasheshe, in PP land it is kaching, kaching 
I LOVE YOU. :lol:
In addition to all the arguments so far, a German equine behaviorist (I’ll try to find the name so folks can do ther due diligence – she was published in the FN magazine St. Georg) found the highly repetitive training methods of NH to produce “learned helplessness” similar to that of Rollkur training practices. She stated that the horses just “give up”.
I’ve been away for a while and just caught up on this thread here and over on the other board. It makes me want to cry. SOB…
What a load of manure. I’m going to remember WAZ like he was before he drank the koolaide
[QUOTE=InsideLeg2OutsideRein;2987599]
In addition to all the arguments so far, a German equine behaviorist (I’ll try to find the name so folks can do ther due diligence – she was published in the FN magazine St. Georg) found the highly repetitive training methods of NH to produce “learned helplessness” similar to that of Rollkur training practices. She stated that the horses just “give up”.[/QUOTE]
Come up with a connection to overweight riders and horse slaughter, and you should win a prize.
Or something.
So this is not like my mother’s statement: “I’m talking kashe, and you’re talking borscht?”
I guess WAZ has just learnt to be a HO!
[QUOTE=mp;2987643]
Come up with a connection to overweight riders and horse slaughter, and you should win a prize.
Or something.[/QUOTE]
well, i stuck around for my science classes, so I’ll let you know when I won a prize/ Granted, the below is directed toward Monty Roberts, but you get the drift…
Article from Cavallo magazine.
December, 2003
((Introduction))
When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips American trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of his work, that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse. Robert’s interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of respect and relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of pillars of Roberts’ allegedly non-violent Join-up method.
How do equine ethologists and behavioural scientists interpret the chewing and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is Join Up really?
CAVALLO asked leading experts from all over the world. Here are some excerpts of their answers:
Dr. Barbara Schöning, Specialist in Animal Behaviour from Hamburg, Germany
From a very early stage the foal shows chewing and licking, the head can be lowered at the same time and the legs bend - similar to the suckling at the udder. Later this eating behaviour becomes a social behaviour that signals submission and appeasement during conflicts. Behaviourists believe that the empty chewing (bruxism) not only restrains the adversary’s aggression but also calms and relaxes the chewing one, in the sense of a so called displacement activity.
If a horse shows this kind of behaviour, there is a reason for it: it feels threatened, which means it is stressed and therefore shows a behaviour that in its opinion is adequate in order to avert the threat. As it is impossible to flee in a round pen it is left with the options to attack, to surrender or to appease.
That is where drama comes into play: situations like those that Monty Roberts creates are for most horses incomprehensible. Why (from the horse’s point of view) does an unknown person put on massive pressure in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding of the horse, is at stake?
Generally this means double stress which in my opinion brings it to the limits as regards animal welfare. I don’t think humans should only be very gentle. Pressure is necessary every now and then during the training - but it has to be reasonable, graded and above all comprehensible for the horse. Then it won’t suffer stress as it learns how it can resolve a certain problem.
Monty Roberts is neither gentle nor non-violent in the round pen – unless gentle and non-violent is defined as “the absence of direct corporal punishment/manipulation”.
To me psychological violence is also relevant.
Dr. Sue McDonnell holds a PhD in psychology and physiology and is Head of the Equine Behaviour Lab at the University of Pennsylvania.
She is one of the leading experts for Equine Behaviour in the USA.
Most behaviourists have concerns regards the naturalness of these natural horsemanship methods. Many horse owners who have been exposed to these methods contact our Institute subsequently for help. This indicates that they often encounter complications or even failure. Join up is a weird and ever growing changing combination of procedures that has very few if any practical applications beyond the “show”.
Same results can be achieved in much simpler ways, though not as entertaining perhaps.
Now in the US it seems that Monty is going out, I haven’t heard much lately about Shy Boy or any of his materials. The methods people have learned in join up type clinics can be fairly rough and border on inhumane and can cause psychological wrecks long-term.
Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the Institute of Biomedical & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is “licking and chewing”. This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release. The simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee - increase in circulating adrenaline - dry mouth - licking. This means a horse may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it surely cannot mean “I’m a herbivore, and if I’m eating I can’t be afraid of you” – the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up. I’ve tried “join up” with three horses with whom I already had a trusting relationship. One joined up “classically” and followed me around meekly.
The other two displayed signs of being irritated by the procedure, one showed increased aggressiveness towards me. I was left wondering frankly what the point of the exercise was and realized that the driving away had a detrimental effect on the trust that I already had built up. > It is not a technique that I would consider using myself, or recommending to other people.
Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the book “Inside your horse’s mind - A Study of Equine Intelligence and Human Prejudice”.
She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses. I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are anxious about something as evinced by their body language. In some cases it may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates the need for caution when attributing specific meanings to particular gestures or facial expressions as these can vary according to context. To be fair, Monty Robert’s pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that licking and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join up is not suitable for every horse.
The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship methods is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations of free-ranging horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than mares. The result is that the training methods adopted are based on very simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.
Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine Behaviourist and Therapist.
In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for Managing Wild Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management (BML) and she is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in Vancouver/Washington.
In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first their lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off their stress, they often will lick and chew - this is however more a sign of relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew, too, when they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back, sweating, pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe, just a way for the horse to release some of the built up stress.
I have known Monty Roberts for almost 30 years. Many of the “join up” techniques are not natural to a horse and in fact cause trauma. The video made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse demonstrated every level of “high stress indicator”. Good horse ethologists or trainers take into account the horse’s temperament and level of stress and then design the most appropriate method to help the horse learn with the least amount of stress and fear. Patience, kindness and being able to think like a horse, are the best traits a human educator can have to educate a horse. Join up once started out as a better way to “break” horses, and has just turned into just another way to control horses using techniques they do not all understand.
Dr. Dirk Lebelt, Specialist for Animal Behaviour at the Horse Clinic, Havelland in Brielow/Brandenburg, Germany
I have some doubts regards the claimed naturalness of round pen training. Even though the control of the movement of a lower status horse by a high status horse is a characteristic of specific equine behaviour. But while under natural conditions the lower status horse is able to evade the aggressions of the higher status animal and may signal its submissiveness, an evasion is impossible within the round pen. In my opinion this explains partly the quick success that often can be observed during round pen training. The horse feels it is at the mercy of the trainer, which is also called “learned helplessness”. This leads to quick submission.
How far such a procedure, which surely doesn’t correspond with the specific equine behavioural repertoire, is non-violent or not, depends definitely on the empathy and the experience of the trainer.
Andy Beck from the “White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project” in Northland/New Zealand studies equine behaviour and training methods on Thoroughbreds and Arabs.
The drive away in which the horse is put into ‘flight’ is potentially very frightening. The use of a mask increases the element of panic and the potential for “learned helplessness”. While this may create an appearance of “control” it has also been shown to impede future learning. There is also the risk of producing abreaction in response to repressed emotion (fear, isolation). Horses that have already been well socialised to people become extremely confused by being driven away. The horse has no idea why it is harried and is most likely to experience the method as unpredictable aggression - the last thing a good trainer wants a horse to experience.
One of the most basic tenets of good horse management is that the handler is able to control their behaviour so that they do not trigger the response of blind flight as a predator would do.
Professor Katherine Houpt, Behavioural Psychologist and Physiologist at the College of Veterinary Behaviourists, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA
I have seen Roberts use the Dually as punishment - jerking on the nose rope and forcing the horse to back up. He doesn’t call it punishment, but it is. His method is not suitable for every horse.
Very aggressive horses will charge. And it is not suitable for every horse owner, as some simply exhaust the horse. To drive the horse away is just a form of negative reinforcement - doing something unpleasant until the horse does what you want. That is not too different from kicking the horse until he trots. I don’t think this method has anything to do with herd behaviour and I don’t know how often horses are permanently cured of their problem if Roberts isn’t there. Round Pen training is not miraculous.
Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School of Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh
In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method especially as this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round pen) was used for training horses in Roman times. If the horse is placed in isolation and in an unfamiliar environment and powerful psychological techniques such as those in the join up system are applied, you have to question the effect that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable dictator and the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the horse shows licking and chewing - all signs of stress.
Dr. Sharon Cregier, Equine Ethologist, former Lecturer at the Canadian University of Prince Edward Island.
She has published many books and articles on equine behaviour and animal welfare. I have never liked the “predator - prey” application to horse training. The horse is a social animal, seeking security and reassurance with trusted herd mates. An ill horse is driven from the herd and it is forced to try to survive on the edge of the herd where it is prey. Therefore it must be confusing to a horse to be continually driven from its source of security but unable to flee.
The round pen, notes veterinarian Robert Miller of Thousand Oaks, California, inhibits the horse’s natural flight response. The free horse flees a predator in a straight line.
Regards the “chewing and licking” it has not been clear to me whether Monty Roberts is referring to the grooved “suckling” tongue or the nervous attack on, for example, hay in a trailer when a horse is under stress.
Dr. Willa Bohnet, Biologist and Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Center for Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Germany
To do a join up with an aggressive horse in a closed round pen is highly dangerous. The method on its own is not suitable for the behavioural therapy of a problem horse. For such a therapy it is necessary to combine, depending on the diagnosis, various methods (for example conditioning, systematic desensitization and anticonditioning in cases of fear and phobias). Under certain circumstances Join up may be suitable to establish the relationship as regards dominance between the trainer and the horse as a basis for further training.
Horses that are generally ready to accept the human being of higher status and to work with him, would be completely confused if they were chased away by the trainer without knowing how they had triggered this behaviour. I once attended a Join up demonstration by a book writing trainer during which he wondered why the mare he was working with would only follow him a few steps. What did the good man do wrong? Every few steps he looked over his shoulder to control if the mare was following him. Every time the mare turned around and ran away. Why? In the horse’s language looking over the shoulder right at someone is a threatening gesture, to which the mare responded correctly.
If Monty Roberts really refers to predatorial behaviour he wouldn’t have understood the background of his own method. A threat by an attacker causes fear and the flight response. If the horse unable to flee, panic arises. The best learning result, what a good educator aims at, is achieved in a relaxed atmosphere. If Join up is practised gently and not in a way that the horse stops running at some stage being sweaty all over and completely exhausted, then it can be used for some horses and in certain therapeutic approaches. But for heaven’s sake it is not a method suitable for everybody. Due to Monty Roberts public demonstrations people get the impression that you only need to chase around your horse properly and it’ll be as meek as a little lamb after max 30 minutes and all problems will be resolved. Fallacy!
Dr. Evelyn Hanggi, Equine Behaviourist and President of the Equine Research Foundation in Aptos, California.
Round pen training and Monty Roberts are not one and the same. Proper use of a round pen by a good trainer is not nearly as stressful as what you see with Roberts. He uses halters that create pain. He uses a buckstopper and right there he loses any credibility of nonviolence.
Horses do not learn well when they are fearful or in pain.
Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington from the Eco Research & Education Centre in Devon, UK, is the Grande dame of Animal Behaviour Research and she founded in 1959 the Research Stud Druimghiga.
It is awful that Monty Roberts refers to the behaviour of a predator. I have seen some shocking results of this. It is madness to frighten a frightened horse. This daft idea of “dominance” comes from the male competitive cultural society in which we all live. The fact of the matter is that the equine societies do not need to be based on dominance or competition, their food etc is either available for every one or no one, only at sexual times there is need for competition between males, and even that rarely occurs in the wild, as the mares rather like their own stallion and are not prepared to put up with intruders.
Dear old Monty does not seem to understand learning theory if he rejects totally feeding as a reward. There needs to be some positive reinforcer to make the horse learn. If Roberts only works with negative reinforcement - that means stopping to chase the horse around as a reward, this does not work as well as behaviourists know already for quite some time.
Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour in Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied Ethology.
He trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and is completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and its consequences for training.
It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear responses that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a round pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse’s memory - the horse associates fear responses with the perception of humans.
The trouble is, these associations are not always evident immediately, they come back to “haunt” the relationship at a later point when stress levels are raised. All sorts of chasing horses should therefore be questioned.
In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when the horse is fearful.
Goodness, if one associates all NH with Monty, no wonder there is a lot of adversity towards NH in general.
I have read some of Andrew McLean, and his view of training is not totally unlike many NH principles (I leave Monty out of any NH discussion, as IMHO he’s just way out there).
Inside2outside - you’re no fun at all… If we had wanted facts and research, then we wouldn’t be arguing about PP’s methods.
The stuff you quoted appears to be directed to Monty Roberts and his “join up” method with wild horses. How is it relevant to the seven games and the training pyramid?
Just close your eyes…imagine PP in a back mask with heavy breathing sounds. Extending a gloved hand. “wwwooosh…Walter…come to the Dark Side…wwwoooshh…I will give you…wwoooosh…cow print barrels and carrot sticks…woooooshh”
You gotta feel for poor Lu…I mean, Walter.
[QUOTE=Rachel L;2987790]
The stuff you quoted appears to be directed to Monty Roberts and his “join up” method with wild horses. How is it relevant to the seven games and the training pyramid?[/QUOTE]
Because some of it is also what PP makes claim to, in his own words, if you listen carefully.:yes:
[QUOTE=Bluey;2987813]
Because some of it is also what PP makes claim to, in his own words, if you listen carefully.[/QUOTE]
Really? Which parts?
[QUOTE=siegi b.;2987778]
Inside2outside - you’re no fun at all… If we had wanted facts and research, then we wouldn’t be arguing about PP’s methods. :-)[/QUOTE]
Mea culpa!!!
The information provided by the behavioralists on the “licking and chewing” certainly gives something to thin about-I know almost every NH method looks at that as a postive…I have always wondered about that.
BUT Parelli does NOT use the round pen like Monty or John Lyons-that is not how it is used in his program. So that part really doesn’t apply.
[QUOTE]I have read some of Andrew McLean, and his view of training is not totally unlike many NH principles (I leave Monty out of any NH discussion, as IMHO he’s just way out there).
[/QUOTE]
I love to see Andrew McLean’s name come up. He remains my hero after reading his articles and books and applying his principles and methods while working with my two mares. But I’ve also dabbled in Parelli, after watching some of their stuff on RFD then looking at their (very slick) intro dvd. I also wrote to a student of theirs who used to event at the advanced level and who I knew from a previous competition barn. She was a consummate horseperson so I wanted to hear it first hand. Anyway, McLean works, but so has Parelli in certain instances. They diverge on several approaches, but I’ve found that sometimes you just have to be there to see what makes sense at that moment. And it’s often trial by error. Without a lifetime of experience with hundreds and hundreds of horses, I feel grateful to those who offer up what they’ve learned through their years of study and/or real lessons learned the hard way. I’ll choose what makes sense for me and give it a try.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
