seven games/training scale

[QUOTE=monstrpony;2991101]
My take on that was that the riders simply did not understand the exercises. Why they didn’t take a time-out and explain them in more detail is beyond me, seems it would have benefitted the viewers as well, but perhaps they didn’t want to reveal that there are things that the Great Ones don’t yet know.[/QUOTE]

That was my impression, that the riders were not getting what they were supposed to do and maybe WZ thought that was not the time to go into more of that, so let them cruise along, seeing enough accomplished for the time being.
But, why put that in a commercial tape, or at least put the resolution later, unless there was no time for that left in the clinic, was touched on later instruction?

We really don’t know, do we, but guessing is fun, as long as we are not the ones being talked about.:wink:

RE: the reining–I think it’s no secret that reining has gone the way of so many other competitive disciplines, in that a particular style has overshadowed the fundamental usefulness of the originating discipline. It’s happend in show hunters, it’s destroyed western pleasure, even trail classes have rail mazes instead of natural obstacles, eventing courses are puzzles instead of tests of endurance, and it’s happened in reining, too. Look at the whole spin on the inside vs outside hind question; one is style, one is function. Running so fast on the fast circles or run-downs that the horses become frazzled, sliding stops that go on for miles–who needs that when you’re actually working a cow? Never mind the real elephant in the room, the fact that these horses no longer work cows at all …

Those of us old enough to recognize all of these stylistic “changes” in the competitive disciplines may just be paranoid as all get-out, but I, for one, am seriously worried about dressage, as well … The fact that the science of breeding allows us to make the stylistic changes in the horses before they’re even born, rather than waiting till we get on their backs, isn’t as great a comfort as one might think. If nothing else, it relegates the common horse to second-rate citizenry, and the idea of training a horse’s body to be physically improved loses value if the competitive world becomes too important, and the common horse has no chance to be a world-beater.

So, someone like WAZ being willing to strap on his waders and slog into the murky world of the common horse and rider? Doesn’t bother me all that much; in fact, in a way, it gives me hope.

Riding camp and PC, maybe.
4-H not so much–any dues are nominal.

Ok. Sure. Very hopeful. Most excellent. But when you then out of the blue start a thread on a dressage bb about this wonderful collaboration and then end by mentioning, oh by the way, we have a book coming out…

Colour me skeptical. Maybe I just need to borrow the rose tinted glasses. :winkgrin:

I have another thought.

Why don’t the PP seek partnership with a jumper instead of dressage? I see way more relevance there… firstly, they are always demonstrating how horses can jump, barrels, picnic tables, fences. secondly, the jumping demo actually doesn’t fail as dismally as Linda with her dressage. Let me put it this way, when Linda does her passage, or flying lead change, it is OBVIOUSLY NOT dressage. It was just horrible to watch. But when she jumps, you can at least call that jumping… and to a certain extent, present much better, the partnership and courage of both rider/horse developed under their system.

Can one of jumper people take them, it would be great!

or even more obvious - why doesn’t one of the reining trainers take up with them? or one of the competitive trail people? both of those disciplines would seem a more natural fit.

Trail ride! Great idea! Exactly! It’s pretty much the only time I like to ride my horse on a loose rein and I must say my horse is (or we are) not very good at it (ridden on loose rein). I would definitely try their program, if they target it to improve trail riding experience.

The O’connors linked up to them briefly and they jump (eventers).

If anyone else had written a long post promoting their new dvd and book coming out, I think it would be considered advertising.

It is advertising.

It reads like a press release, in fact. Maybe that’s why the wording is strange. I wonder who wrote it. Come to think of it, the ‘asthetic’ sentence does not sound like WAZ at all and his English is fine so it’s not that.

[QUOTE=MyReality;2991961]
I have another thought. Why don’t the PP seek partnership with a jumper instead of dressage? I see way more relevance there… [/QUOTE]

Well, no. A couple years ago the AQHA launched a major effort/promotion to get their membership interested in dressage. Of course, at that same time a best-in-the-world dressage rider had her horse bolting out of the ring plowing into other horses during an insane version of a victory gallop, allegations of abusive training throughout europe, committees developed to look into the abuse, etc. Only to be followed up most recently with PowerandPaint video. Not exactly what little Sally’s mom wants to see when looking for a positive fun environment for Sally and the pony.

Now if PP and WAZ can get the quarter horse people on track with dressage, that’s a major market. On Jan 08 2008 the AQHA registered their five millionth horse — now that’s a registry.

Am I cynical about this? No. I don’t for one moment believe QH people are going to abondon their registry (look at all it does for them) and go to europe just to buy uber-movers to get them through first level. They will stay with their horses and learn dressage in a way that benefits their average gaited horses. Enter WAZ, one guy out there that can actually teach it and not be overwhelmed. I’m not so sure any euro dressage trainers can or would be able to accomplish that…

So I see PP with eyes towards the AQHA and furthering NH. And I really don’t know how many NHers are in AQHA already…

Isn’t Lynn Palm already doing the AQHA dressage thing?

WAZ understands national organizations and won’t be overwhelmed organizing national or territorial (PP) programs:

  • "In 1981 Zettl was recruited to move to Canada and serve as Managing Director of the Canadian I.E.S.S. During this time he coached the young riders dressage team from Ontario.

  • " In 1984 Walter coached dressage for the Canadian 3-day event Team at the Los Angeles Summer Olympics. During this time he was awarded by the Province of Ontario in Recognition for Distinguished Performance in the field of amateur sport.

  • "For the last twenty years Walter Zettl has continued his lifelong work of teaching riders the art of dressage combined with communication with the horse. " - http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/biography.html

[QUOTE=sm;2992271]
WAZ understands national organizations and won’t be overwhelmed organizing national or territorial (PP) programs:[/QUOTE]

who said that he didn’t understand national organizations? who said he would be overwhelmed?

Waz will soon answer all our questions!

Well, WAZ is communicating with someone on “TOB”

He will be coming down from the mountain in Utah to answer all our questions! :winkgrin:

WAZ is here in Utah. He is tucked away on top of a small mountain in Park City with (no joking) 12 feet of snow. He’s been here for a week with very little cell service and no internet. I met with him and he ask that I send you all a note, that he will be getting back to the BB as soon as he returns to Canada, this weekend.

He had printed out all the pages when he left to read on the way here which I think was at page 5. So he will have lots of catching up to do. He apologizes for not being able to get back sooner, and wanted to thank everyone for the response which is has received.

The good news is he is in a very nice well heated barn. He’ll have fun looking through this topic.

Oh thank you Claire:

I’m so glad to see that he is following the threads on all of this and soon will be answering all of our questions because I would like to know if it is in fact true that he teaches riders in the Cradle Bridle and I’d like to know why he would do that since this bridle, from everything written about it on the Parelli sight, certainly sounds like a gadget that definatley puts a horse behind the bit.

Why would he not insist that the riders wear a regular bridle with a snaffle for the dressage work? I mean you are teaching the P’s dressage as WE all know it right?

If this is in fact true, I find it very disappointing.

Why is PP moving toward a dressage audience?

Aren’t dressage riders mostly adult beginners who are afraid to jump? :lol::lol:

The western people know too much to fall for his mumbo-jumbo.

And the trail riders don’t spend enough money!!

The almighty ka-ching is the reason for everything they do. :yes:

—“The almighty ka-ching is the reason for everything they do.”—

If you study the people that make tremendous amount of money and have very succesful business to run, you will find that money in itself tends to become a nebulous object.
Many then start to think what else they can do with all that money and tend to use some of it for a common good they think is appropiate.
When they do that, the rest of us generally don’t get to her about it.

We can’t really say someone considered self made “has money as the reason for all they do”.

Geez, no need to get all phil-o-sofikal. The question was asked: “why are the Ps marketing to dressage wannabes?” The answer is because that is where the potential market IS.

Or do you think there is a philanthropic purpose? They are trying to “Save Dressage?” Or what? :rolleyes:

There is always a market full of people who aren’t satisfied with how well they are riding, and who think if they get the right book, video or guru, their problems will be over. They look at successful people and bristle and wonder why they can’t be successful. There are a great many people hanging out on the fringes of dressage, by some counts it is one of the faster growing riding sports.

Fast or slow, there have always been a ton of people who are disenfranchised, working along at home, reading books, dreaming of that great classical art, and either convincing themselves that they’re doing dressage, or LOOKING, very aggressively, most of the time, for someone who WILL convince them they are doing dressage!

What Parelli teaches as dressage is incorrect. It’s so incorrect it can be called ‘Not Dressage’. He is trying to make it easy, palatable, and all about this concept of ‘release of pressure’.

Dressage is NOT about ‘release of pressure’. In fact, dressage isn’t even ‘the opposite of release of pressure’.

In fact, the concept is entirely irrelvant and messes up any dressage anyone is going to try to do. The point with dressage is that there is no ‘pressure’ to release, because there IS no pressure, but a harmonious contact that needs to be perpetuated, not released, cultivated, not thrown away.

The point is, however, it is easier, far easier to market a system of ‘pressure and release’, and more people will ‘get’ it. Because it is far easier than doing what needs to be done with dressage - develop contact and a coordination of the aids that sustains a connection with the horse.

So what they’ve done is CHANGE dressage into something they can market in their way, in their format. Something they know how to teach.

It’s the same as if I wanted to teach ballroom dancing, but didn’t know how. So I hang out my shingle that says ‘ballroom dancing lessons’, and I teach you to stand on your partners’ feet, because I know how to do that, and that’s easy to teach.

You, the consumer, will NEVER know the joy and exhillaration of actually doing ballroom dancing, in fact, I’ll market it to you so convincingly that I’ll convince you that what you’re doing is not only REAL ballroom dancing, but eventually, that it’s BETTER than ballroom dancing.

I’ll make a mint, and the only thing that suffers is your partners feet.

The key is this - people want a simplified quick way to do something they are having a hard time grasping and succeeding at. Parelli, unfortunately, is like the greatest used car salesman in the universe. He has the rap down perfect. In fact, he’s such a good salesman people don’t even realize they are getting sold to.

slc2 I totally agree with what you said. Well said.

[QUOTE=sm;2992214]
Well, no. A couple years ago the AQHA launched a major effort/promotion to get their membership interested in dressage. Of course, at that same time a best-in-the-world dressage rider had her horse bolting out of the ring plowing into other horses during an insane version of a victory gallop, allegations of abusive training throughout europe, committees developed to look into the abuse, etc. Only to be followed up most recently with PowerandPaint video. Not exactly what little Sally’s mom wants to see when looking for a positive fun environment for Sally and the pony.

Now if PP and WAZ can get the quarter horse people on track with dressage, that’s a major market. On Jan 08 2008 the AQHA registered their five millionth horse — now that’s a registry.

Am I cynical about this? No. I don’t for one moment believe QH people are going to abondon their registry (look at all it does for them) and go to europe just to buy uber-movers to get them through first level. They will stay with their horses and learn dressage in a way that benefits their average gaited horses. Enter WAZ, one guy out there that can actually teach it and not be overwhelmed. I’m not so sure any euro dressage trainers can or would be able to accomplish that…

So I see PP with eyes towards the AQHA and furthering NH. And I really don’t know how many NHers are in AQHA already…[/QUOTE]

You see, that’s where I disagree, respectfully.

Why does it have to do with AQHA (except that it is a big market)?? The directive of AQHA has very little to do with dressage, I’d be happy if it actually has a directive for the breed. I am not trying to get into a breed war here. I see a value of introducing a form of dressage for pleasure purpose, like Cadora, but I disagree it has to do with a breed, and AQHA is a poor example as such. Of course it makes perfect sense in marketing perspective, but what good does it do for either dressage or the breed??? Just look at AQHA, it is built on people who don’t care, except as a marketing engine, the more the merrier.

Enter WAZ to teach dressage… which is fine and dandy. But why does it have to be married to NH… that is the confusing part. QH owners doing dressage, why not… QH owners do PP, to each their own… PP people doing dressage, still not a problem… but combining dressage and PP, I cannot understand.

Then why is the allegations of horse abuse, and the victory gallop incident even in the picture?? Every discipline has its mishap, every discipline has bad blood. Little Sally’s Mom need to open her eyes, and not be so ignorant… she should pay special attention to trainers who claim to be the ultimate supreme horse communicator educator, who make sure you pay a couple hundred dollars for an orange stick and rope. Dressage doesn’t need NH, and especially PP, for stamp of approval.