seven games/training scale

IL2OR

I was half being facetious.

I do think the Parelli machine is a good example of marketing and business practices that an educated, skeptical consumer will see through in a heartbeat–hence the bashing they take from this BB, for example. This BB is an audience they should be seeking if there were any genuine priorities in their endeavour other than the desire to make money. The fact that there are so many Parelli followers who are not legitimately successful in enjoying their horses in a traditional way (riding, instead of unending groundwork, for example) should be a giant red flag to them; instead, they try to convince these folks that they are enjoying their horses more, now that they’ve been made somewhat safe from the fear they have yet to overcome. And we won’t even get into the fact that these horses are not happy, they are confused, frustrated, and either angry or resigned.

In a serious business sense, the Parelli machine is a dismal failure. But, somehow, that doesn’t keep it from making money, now, does it?

yep, agree. :yes:

[QUOTE=LMH;2989809]
Maybe WAZ just saw a need with Parelli’s and decided to be helpful. That makes the most sense-no hidden agenda, no selling out-just seeing a need and stepping in to fill it.

I personally think people would be THRILLED that the Parelli’s are working with WAZ. They are taking lessons with me so learning from him.

The entire Parelli program, all of those that are devoted to the program and the horses owned by them will only benefit.

It is beyond me that people just can’t find the good in something.

Criticize Parelli for not understanding correct dressage, then criticize the program for trying to improve.

Can’t win.[/QUOTE]

Criticize Parelli for not understanding correct dressage? I think you got that backwards.
The PP were the ones bashing dressage, very clearly, teeth gnashing to listen to ALL the time, for YEARS.
The way they talked about dressage was past you now saying “the poor misunderstood PP’s”, I think.:stuck_out_tongue:

I did see a picture of Linda, on their ad for the new 2008 tour season, where, for the first time, she has an active leg under herself and on the horse, not floating somewhere around there, a very clear improvement to the way she rode before. I think WZ lessons may be helping.
Now, if they help guide their instructors eyes to a more correct, effective seat for their system, that would be a true improvement, from trying to reinvent the wheel with goofy ways of riding.:yes:

I agree that riding without tack gives you an independent seat, as WZ said, but I don’t agree on the light hands.
Many of those riders have uneducated hands, with horses with uneducated mouths, that show resistences when contact is made and/or back off contact, evade behind the bit.
I would guess the ones that really know how to handle the reins started with good instructors in traditional disciplines and can ride both, without contact and with contact, but didn’t learn that in the PP system.
That tends to be a problem not only with many NHers, but also in many western disciplines.

LOL…no bluey-I am aware of the Parelli’s years of dressage bashing…but it is what it is, can’t be taken back. I ma not justifying it at all…but I do think it is important to look at things now…they did ask for and are receiving help.

I think I was more responding to the criticism across many forums on WAZ’s involvement…calling him a sell-out and such…I was just saying he is helping the Parelli program so why criticize him.

[QUOTE=EqTrainer;2989792]
It is scary but inevitable. We are moving out of an era of lifetime horse people into one with a lot of people who have taken up riding as adults… who have never trained a dog let alone dealt with a 1400 lb herd animal. They come into riding with a fantasy intact and will move from discipline to discipline, trainer to trainer, until they find someone who will humor them. Smart (read $$$) trainers capitalize on this… feed the romance and the illusions… and IMO that is what WAZ has decided to do. Goodness knows, this has to be tied into all those Gypsy Vanner breeders! WHO is buying those horses!!! The romantics, of course.

He probably figures if you can’t beat them, join them… because clearly that is where the money is at. I really can’t blame him, because I don’t think it is going to change. He’s old, he’s probably tired and he’s probably needing to finance a retirement soon. Poor man.[/QUOTE]

Brilliant post! And true. Many humans who are getting into horses are adults. They have great expectations. Children who grow up with horses have learned how to work, play with the horse and friends, no expectations and just enjoy the horse. Many very young kids go to shows just wanting to get different color of ribbons, dont care what they mean, just like the colors. Adults want instant satisfaction and expect to be loved by their instructor/Trainer. Those instructors/trainers who can give the feeling of instant satisfaction will get the cash. I started riding in many disciplines as a child. Grew up with horses. I am now in my 30s. My parents discovered PP about 7 years ago. They were amazed and wow’ed. Still are, I was never Wow’ed in that the things PP is doing, were things that were common sense to me. I reminded them of the time I was kicking a big metal barrel down a hill as my pony followed me, no worries. We were going to jump barrels. Parents then admitted that why they like PP is that he gives them something different to do with their horses and they can instantly see/feel the horses response. Thus instant gratification, although maybe not the most correct.

[QUOTE=LMH;2989978]
LOL…no bluey-I am aware of the Parelli’s years of dressage bashing…but it is what it is, can’t be taken back. I ma not justifying it at all…but I do think it is important to look at things now…they did ask for and are receiving help.

I think I was more responding to the criticism across many forums on WAZ’s involvement…calling him a sell-out and such…I was just saying he is helping the Parelli program so why criticize him.[/QUOTE]

I wish WZ would have come on board the PP system many years ago, before it had taken the turns it did away from a good, solid, proven basis of traditional horse handling and riding.
There was in the US a need and still is for what they are doing, but I think it would have been more accepted if they had kept their innovative ideas but learned what they obviously were not aware of, so could not know, of the traditional horsemanship out there.
Their system, to me, became the emperor without clothes, that no one dared mention to their faces it was naked, lacked the very basics most horsemen for centuries have learned is one of the better ways to work with horses.
They filled those holes in their understanding of traditional horsemanship with goofy ideas.
Some worked fine, others were really not an improvement if at all relevant to what we do with horses and how we do it.

If earlier, before they invested so much into their system as it was developing, they would have had the WZ’s of the world giving input and helping tweak their program, so it was accepted universally, they would be today not only a great business, but one with few detractors and may have become the one for future riding instructors, that would have fit any one discipline and what we do with our horses today.

As it is, their program has become a side to today’s horse world, with their own following and eventually maybe PP shows, just like hunter shows, reining, saddleseat, polo and such, if they get enough people to participate.
Maybe that is what they want and that is fine also, they do some interesting things with their horses.
If so, it is hard to imagine where the introduction of trainers from traditional disciplines come in, as the Connors and WZ?

Apart from making fun - this thread has some very well worded
comments - the likes of which I never could verbalise. I wonder what horsemanship will be like thirty years down the road - a separate kingdom for the PP types, perhaps?

I like and can relate to, the comments about kids just doing it. John Whittaker is supposed to have developed without much in the way of formal training, but he had the feel.

By the way - what is it with the Europeans using Monty Roberts at the Dressage Forum when there are so many other truly, deeply knowledgeable people they could ask?

Well said Bluey…but it is what it is now.

Because of my great respect for WAZ, I suppose I will continue to be positive and hopeful that his gentlemanly way of teaching and his indescribable education and experience with dressage and classical horsemanship will be able to fill in gaps in the Parelli program and maybe one day help to create a successful correct program for those not able or interested in learning in a more traditional environment (i.e. training barn, etc).

I can say one thing for sure. I do have access to the Savvy Club forum and there is a great desire from so many in the program to learn. A REAL desire. People are now asking good questions about collection and contact.

There is so much excitement surrounding WAZ’s involvement in Parelli-land. There is a hunger for what he has to offer.

It would be so sad for the negative attitudes toward Parelli and now toward WAZ to influence his decision to join the Parellis…

People only know what they know-sometimes enthusiasm creates blind spots and often temporary arrogance. There is a great opportunity here for others to learn and be helped.

People can be a part of the problem or a part of the solution. Criticism, humor at another’s expense and judgments without full knowledge are not part of a solution so they can only be furthering a problem.

I guess that is where I am coming from these days.

“You’re a part of the solution or you’re a part of the problem”

God how I love that phrase.

Translation: YOu either agree with LMH or you’ve got a problem.

The last time i heard that phrase was from an employee at a now defunct company who screamed at the local bank tellers, and told them there were tunnels under the mall bank branch to his office, that he fired 40 people that day, things like that.

In what language?

The last time i heard that phrase was from an employee at a now defunct company who screamed at the local bank tellers, and told them there were tunnels under the mall bank branch to his office, that he fired 40 people that day, things like that.

You always have the most interesting stories. And always so germane to the topic, too.

Pancakes…

PatnLinda and Quaker oats.

Hmmmmmmmm…take flour, milk, butter and eggs, dry it out a bit, add some weird-sounding ingredients, stick it in a colorful box, spend a fortune on marketing, and call it - AUNT JEMIMA!!! Brilliant.

What Parelli - now with Walter Zettl - are doing, isn’t dissimilar…

Say! It’s our all-new Whole-Wheat Dressage Blend! So much healthier than basic dressage, and so much easier to get there!

The Emperor just isn’t as well-dressed as he once was…or God has clay feet: take your pick. :uhoh:

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;2990161]

By the way - what is it with the Europeans using Monty Roberts at the Dressage Forum when there are so many other truly, deeply knowledgeable people they could ask?[/QUOTE]

Cause the dressage forum is really the “Bartels” forum (notice the absence of most German dressage lights) on the New Dutch Dressage and they get Monty to show how “open to new things” they are :no:

slc-piss off :slight_smile:

I mean that with all the southern charm I can muster.

I do hope your hormone therapy kicks in before tomorrow. :wink:

Now if PNH were extended to include PNDT – Parelli Natural Dog Training – THAT would open up a huge new audience. :smiley:

I’d be interested to see PNPT - Parelli Natural Personal Training because a huge majority of people have no idea how to train/discipline/educate themselves.
Followed at Level 2 by PNCT - Parelli Natural Child Training so they could learn to train a child to independent happy adult hood.

If and only if they passed these levels would i consider letting them near a horse.

Interesting article:

http://anrc.org/article.asp?ArticleID=53&section_id=2

Please stick to the topic and avoid the personal commentary. Thanks.

Well, I for one appreciate LMH’s ability to think in a positive way and keep an open mind.

A friend of mine who is a great admirer of WAZ (since before the Parelli join-up occurred) got the CD of the clinic in Texas that WAZ did with the Parellis and another prominent reiner (Craig Thompson?) plus another dressage rider. For all of the nonsense that makes up the Parelli machine, Pat can do a thing or two with a horse, though I will admit he and Linda were much weaker in that demo than the other reiner guy, both in what they could get from their horses, and their ability to follow WAZ’s directions. But anyway–the thing that struck me in the CD was the pure, unadulterated joy that WAZ expressed when PP got something good from his horse. Toward the end, PP started showing off a bit, and you can hear WAZ in the background, just burbling with joy like a small child at the fusion of horse and rider that he was witnessing–regardless of the presence or absence of dressage qualities in the work.

That gives me hope that WAZ can see through the glitz and the nonsense, and still see the potential for good if some refinement and further correctness can be infiltrated into the Parelli program. From what LMH says, this is welcomed by the Parelli followers, which is good to hear.

Now, don’t y’all go bursting my rose-colored, idealistic bubble, ya hear?:wink:

Monstrpony, I want whatever you’re having. Nicely said.

I don’t care who it is or what they do, when someone’s happy about horses and people “getting it” and being connected, that’s a good thing, and I can’t help but like those folks.

My hub calls the local P people “The Pod People” because of their zealousness (esp. in terms of making $, I think!). But there is some good there. I just choose not to spend my $ that way. I’m sure they think I’m crazy, though, spending my $ on eventing/dressage clinics…

[QUOTE=monstrpony;2991007]
Well, I for one appreciate LMH’s ability to think in a positive way and keep an open mind.

A friend of mine who is a great admirer of WAZ (since before the Parelli join-up occurred) got the CD of the clinic in Texas that WAZ did with the Parellis and another prominent reiner (Craig Thompson?) plus another dressage rider. For all of the nonsense that makes up the Parelli machine, Pat can do a thing or two with a horse, though I will admit he and Linda were much weaker in that demo than the other reiner guy, both in what they could get from their horses, and their ability to follow WAZ’s directions. But anyway–the thing that struck me in the CD was the pure, unadulterated joy that WAZ expressed when PP got something good from his horse. Toward the end, PP started showing off a bit, and you can hear WAZ in the background, just burbling with joy like a small child at the fusion of horse and rider that he was witnessing–regardless of the presence or absence of dressage qualities in the work.

That gives me hope that WAZ can see through the glitz and the nonsense, and still see the potential for good if some refinement and further correctness can be infiltrated into the Parelli program. From what LMH says, this is welcomed by the Parelli followers, which is good to hear.

Now, don’t y’all go bursting my rose-colored, idealistic bubble, ya hear?;)[/QUOTE]

I watched that same tape and agree with what you say.
Hoping not to be a downer, but in that one class in that one clinic, the part shown on that one tape looked also like WZ telling them to do this and that and, not much happening or getting accomplished corresponding to his explicit requests, eventually just let them ride around on their own strung out fashion, without saying much any more.

Now, I wonder why they didn’t show other times in their tape for sale, where more was being accomplished?
Maybe he thought they were already doing better than before, maybe impulsion was improved, straightness, a more balanced horse, better rider position?
It is hard to say what is going on from some minutes in time only from a whole clinic.:confused:

I got to see the two last runs of the World Ch AQHA reining, I think it was, on TV, last night.
The reserve ch horse was very smooth, correct and had a very impressive run.
He was at times almost fourbeating on his canter circles, but otherwise had beautiful lead changes truly coming from behind and moved round, forward and well balanced.
The winner, I hope it doesn’t become a new fad, was a peanut roller, head way too low, seemed to smell the ground some of the time and almost stumbled over his nose a time or two, had a better way of going generally than the other horse, but was stiff, resistent and overbent on his spins and flexed way too much on the backing, that was faster but not as fluid as the other horse.
He also didn’t really change leads uphill, but more falling into his changes.
I wonder why a seemingly less correct horse won over the other, when both are at the top and the best a judged discipline has to offer?

I see similarities there with what the PP system is and does.
We see, to us looking from the outside, odd things happening in it, some that basically seem incorrect, for what we know horses are and do.
We just really don’t know where they are going with them, but I am sure somewhere oddness makes sense to them.
Who knows, their way may some day be part of the standard way.

My take on that was that the riders simply did not understand the exercises. Why they didn’t take a time-out and explain them in more detail is beyond me, seems it would have benefitted the viewers as well, but perhaps they didn’t want to reveal that there are things that the Great Ones don’t yet know.