I wish he had more impulsion. He looks too grounded for my taste.
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7071275]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js9zF0XrunM[/QUOTE]
All that movement, and he can walk too.
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7071275]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js9zF0XrunM[/QUOTE]
That’s much better than the other video I saw. I can see why people like him from this one.
I’m saying that the SO/agent has said that mares are getting pregnant on 3 straws in Europe, I have no way of verifiying this. I didn’t say that the mare owners here used one dose, I have no information regarding the doses used. This is the argument used against adding straws, I’m on your side, I think it’s the PMMN + the numbers that should be looked at. If I sounded as if I agree with the 3 straw dose, I apologize. In rereading my post, I see that I wasn’t clear.
Don’t people care that the stallion tested positive for OCD himself? and stifle ocd is the worst, it is not like having a simple bone chip that can be removed. I love him too but cant get the ocd thing out of my head.
Paulamc
Top Kat,
I must stress that I don’t really have a broader knowledge of the situation – my true sample size is “one” and I’m thrilled it worked. My vet knew there had been a low number of successful breedings, and it was she who suggested we double-dose, and try to pinpoint ovulation. She said the post-thaw motility was very good, and her hypotheses is that longevity may not be great (just a hypotheses), and that, combined with low sperm volume, argues for breeding as close to ovulation as possible. I expect/hope the SO will want to do the right thing and provide viable breeding doses to all; the next freeze might provide better results, and more sperm. (No need to apologize, and I hope my language was not inflammatory) I understand that collections from a stallion just turning 3 (as Sezuan was when this freeze was done) are not necessarily representative of the collections of a 4 or 5 year old, more mature stallion.
Regarding dose size in general, (I did not contact this SO) Because I’ve heard rumblings regarding dose size from several stallions, I’ve been emailing these owners asking why dose sizes have been lowered. Let’s just say they aren’t being bashful about saying yes, “because people are splitting doses”. I have the emails.
So when you say they need to do the right thing… their perspective is people are taking advantage of one dose is one breeding. They have taken notice of what’s going on and are doing things to try and stop it.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7072833]
Let’s just say they aren’t being bashful about saying yes, “because people are splitting doses”. I have the emails. [/QUOTE]
I’ve b*tched about this before, but it’s worth repeating. Mare owners buy frozen semen from Europe with no LFG. If a mare owner wants to gamble and split a dose, that should be her prerogative. In all likelihood, far more mare owners are going to get ZERO (no pregnancy) for their money than two foals. Stallion owners don’t stand to lose anything whatsoever from selling frozen semen. If they don’t want to risk a mare owner splitting a dose, then sell frozen with a contract and a LFG.
The answer to this problem is to have a minimum number of progressively motile sperm per dose, which I had thought was already regulated? I could be wrong.
In the end, I believe stallion owners are only blemishing their own reputation and shooting themselves in the foot by skimping on doses.
I have no knowledge of how many doses were used in the US to get a pregnancy except for you Sunnydays an one other. I am not defending the 3 straw dose, the stallion agent said that mares in Europe are getting in foal with this protocol. I agree that this is a numbers game along with PMMN sperm. In rereading my post, I realize that I wasn’t clear. It should take only one dose to get a mare in foal. I used to use two per cycle, but realized that one should be enough. For the last two seasons I’ve bred 7 mares with only one dose, all got PG. I would like to use Sezuan, but I don’t want to use two doses, too much $$$.
IMO (for what it is worth and that is nothing) this argument for reducing dose sizes is specious. I stand by my previously voiced opinion that stallion owners do not lose $$ selling doses of frozen semen, split doses or no split doses. They offer no replacement guarantees, no LFG, no insurance to mare owners whatsoever. The mare owner takes the chances on a pregnancy and spends the $$ to breed. If he or she is enough of a gambler to split a dose, that is their right (as long as a contract that forbids splitting doses is not in place).
I am not that sort of gambler. I try to do everything possible to stack the odds for a pregnancy, as the studfee is usually the least of my worries. Most of the breeders I know do the same (look at Kathleen using two very expensive doses and every trick her vet could pull out of his sleeve for a pregnancy). If a few breeders choose to split doses and then get lucky and get a pregnancy from doing so, IMO that should not change the entire frozen semen selling scenario. The numbers overall will always show far fewer pregnancies than doses sold. The SO comes out on the plus side. The MO takes the risks. To claim otherwise is just smoke and mirrors.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7072833]
Regarding dose size in general, (I did not contact this SO) Because I’ve heard rumblings regarding dose size from several stallions, I’ve been emailing these owners asking why dose sizes have been lowered. Let’s just say they aren’t being bashful about saying yes, “because people are splitting doses”. I have the emails.
So when you say they need to do the right thing… their perspective is people are taking advantage of one dose is one breeding. They have taken notice of what’s going on and are doing things to try and stop it.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Home Again Farm in regards to frozen semen and splitting doses 100%. I have split doses on a few known to be very fertile stallions with good success - sometimes using 2 straws instead of three so if you buy 2 doses (3 straw doses) you get 3 chances. Since success rate isn’t 100% I consider myself lucky if I get two pregnancies out of the three attempts…so in the end most of the time only 2 pregnancies for two doses. I have spent WAY more money on frozen semen that has been used unsuccessfully than the two or three times I have gotten two pregnancies from one dose!
Frozen semen has gotten really expensive to purchase handle and ship. The prices have sky rocked over the past few years in some cases almost doubled… so, less semen per dose at a much higher price. to me it sounds like stallion owners are getting the better end of the deal…regardless of split doses or not.
I really like Sezuan and was super excited to use him this year until I heard of peoples unsuccessful attempts and low concentration in the breeding doses. To due double doses on him for breeding is really tempting but very costly with his current price…without a lfg.
I posted this on the FB thread about splitting frozen doses, but it seems have been removed for some reason, so I will repeat it here.
Some years back, when I was going to Germany fairly regularly, we would spend a good amount of time at Paul Schockemoehle’s training/stallion center in Mühlen. We also had dinner regularly with his general manager. One night, the conversation during dinner turned to the topic of frozen semen, and Klappi got pretty animated about the fact that people were splitting doses. As he stated - and as I have repeated numerous times - the stallion owners felt they were doing their part by shipping industry standard doses. They felt they were being fair to mare owners, and it caused a certain amount of consternation in Germany when they learned about people routinely splitting doses. I asked if they had considered adding a clause to their contracts about dose splitting, but he said they (he and Paul) had discussed it with some other big gun stallion stations in the area, and the general consensus was that a clause of that sort could be very difficult to enforce, esp. internationally. They were therefore “going in a different direction”. Later that year, frozen semen prices for many of the most popular German stallions increased dramatically.
I can see their side of it. Mare owners in Germany pay 2500E for fresh semen from Sandro Hit (to use one example). FWIW, that is about $3200 USD. There is a limited LFG with the fresh semen, in that if the mare doesn’t catch, she can be rebred the following year for half price.
Meanwhile, mare owners in NA can breed with frozen from Sandro Hit for about $1800 (per insemination dose). Although there is no LFG, SH is known to have pretty darned good frozen semen. Yes, the mare may not catch, and you are out the $1800. But if you were a breeder in Germany using fresh semen, you would have paid the equivalent of $3200, and you pay another $1600 if you have to use the limited LFG.
To clarify - NA breeders can get a Sandro Hit foal for $1800, but German breeders have to pay much more. I can see where they don’t think it is quite fair that NA breeders are splitting doses and getting foals for much, much less than what they have to pay.
I can see both sides.
In the end, what it comes down to is that the SO’s don’t see it the way mare owners here do. And since they can do something to make getting multiples more difficult withOUT adding more headache and cost to their side of things - they are. In the end we all suffer for it.
One SO said they reduced the straw count but there were the “same number of forward moving sperms” as in the previous dose with a higher straw count. Not totally clear why they put the same numbers in fewer straws if the reason for doing so was due to splitting doses as they stated. I have my opinion on those new “highly concentrated” straws.
I have heard the brokers are going to help out the people who bought the Seuzan semen. Can anyone comment on that? So while there is no guarantee, it does sound like someone IS trying to make things good. Which is a very respectful thing to do.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7073839]
One SO said they reduced the straw count but there were the “same number of forward moving sperms” as in the previous dose with a higher straw count. Not totally clear why they put the same numbers in fewer straws if the reason for doing so was due to splitting doses as they stated. I have my opinion on those new “highly concentrated” straws.[/QUOTE]
The “concentration” of cells per ml probably isn’t any higher. There’s probably just more progressively motile ones, and fewer dead ones in that particular freeze than in previous freezes.
True. The informal survey on wbbg doesn’t show good results so that weighed in my opinion.
Well, I have stated my opinion on the splitting matter many a time but I does make me scratch my head when I hear about SO’s getting their panties in a knot when they hear about a mare owner splitting doses. I wonder, how do they feel when they cash a cheque for a dose of semen that a mare owner gets no preg. from? Well, I think we all know the general answer to that one because they are certainly not in the habit of handing out replacement doses (not that I expect them to). Bottom line is that the it can’t just work one way, sorry to say.
As for the comments about the three straw doses getting preg. in Europe. Well, I am sorry but I find that hard to believe simply because he is available fresh cooled, so if you are a breeder in Germany, Holland, Denmark ect you are probably gonna opt for the fresh cooled. I highly doubt there are many frozen Sezuan breedings going on over there…
Kathleen, BIG CONGRATS !! That is soooo exciting :D:D:D
I wholeheartedly agree that frozen semen should be sold unrestricted. I live in Australia and we can buy PSI semen in two ways - either buy 3 doses for one pregnancy only and return the rest of the semen
or 2) buy one dose only and get as many pregnancies as youlike - therefore we can split dose here
we can also buy other semen unrestricted as well - if it is sold unrestricted we can buy it this way in Australia
you would be surprised maybe but a lot of frozen semen is sold unrestricted as to use in Germany and Holland - I imported my own semen direct from Germany and had some stallions owners telling me I could split the dose
it is semen agents who mostly put the one pregnancy perdose on it - not the SOs. there are some stallions sold one preg per dose but many more are sold unrestricted
Anyway, for the people who do get 2 or 3 pregnancies per dose of semen - there are so many more who get nothing at all. I am sure it evens out and we should definitely be able to buy the semen and do as we like with it, it is crazy to be any other way - the risk is all ours and many many seasons I have come out with no semen and harldy any pregnancies
maybe we all need to rise up against this - after all if we allow it to continue it will
but I only buy semen where I can split the dose, I just cant afford to buy it any other way
Paulamc
"To clarify - NA breeders can get a Sandro Hit foal for $1800, but German breeders have to pay much more. I can see where they don’t think it is quite fair that NA breeders are splitting doses and getting foals for much, much less than what they have to pay. "
To use Sandro Hit as an example, until recently his price for frozen semen in the US was close to $2500 per dose. Add shipping and storage costs, and “handling fees” from the broker or shipper, and vet bills that are about $1000 per breeding, and the price differential goes away. In Germany there are not the fees for shipping and covering that we have here, Usually mares go the stallion station for as many covers as is required in one season, and no big charges are added for the inseminations. So, you might cover a mare 3 or 4 or more times in a season, and pay 1/2 price to try again in year 2, without astronomical vet fees. With frozen semen you don’t get 3 or 4 or more chances, per dose, and each attempt is much more costly in terms of ancillary expenses.
I choose to use a “breeding dose” when I use frozen, but I expect that dose to be such that expectation of success is high.
Just one question… When we breed our mares in Germany, we get a breedingcertificate for our mare with the name of the stallion and the stallion owner has to sign it… So even if we would split the dose for two mares, we would not get a registration for another foal… how does it work in the US??
