Sezuan

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Sunnydays;7074210]
"To clarify - NA breeders can get a Sandro Hit foal for $1800, but German breeders have to pay much more. I can see where they don’t think it is quite fair that NA breeders are splitting doses and getting foals for much, much less than what they have to pay. "
To use Sandro Hit as an example, until recently his price for frozen semen in the US was close to $2500 per dose. Add shipping and storage costs, and “handling fees” from the broker or shipper, and vet bills that are about $1000 per breeding, and the price differential goes away. In Germany there are not the fees for shipping and covering that we have here, Usually mares go the stallion station for as many covers as is required in one season, and no big charges are added for the inseminations. So, you might cover a mare 3 or 4 or more times in a season, and pay 1/2 price to try again in year 2, without astronomical vet fees. With frozen semen you don’t get 3 or 4 or more chances, per dose, and each attempt is much more costly in terms of ancillary expenses.
I choose to use a “breeding dose” when I use frozen, but I expect that dose to be such that expectation of success is high.[/QUOTE]

Well, I am talking about current prices, but SH was certainly one of the stallions whose frozen prices were raised dramatically in response to the reports of dose splitting. (I remember when it was $800 per dose!)

And yes, German breeders may get several chances during a season, but there are shipping fees associated with each attempt. Schockemoehle, for instance, has a 60E delivery charge, as well as 30E for the health certificate that accompanies the semen. They also have a daily charge for mare care.

So again, if the German breeder is lucky and gets an SH foal without having to use the limited LFG, he has paid $3200 for the stud fee alone. By contrast, a lucky NA breeder will pay only $1800 for an SH foal - and much less if she uses split doses. (I saw one report somewhere of someone who used single straws from a 3-straw dose to get THREE foals from a popular German stallion.)

I will also add that it wasn’t just the stallion owners in Germany who were in consternation about the reports of dose splitting in NA, AUS/NZ, France, South Africa, etc. MARE owners who knew about the dose splitting going on elsewhere were putting pressure on the stallion stations to do something to make things more equitable.

I know there are those who feel it is their right to split doses, and they can certainly do as they want. I was just trying to point out that the reason the SOs raised frozen prices is because of the dose splitting.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Sorry to hijack this thread. This entire discussion regarding splitting doses and rising semen prices really should have its own thread.

I have a couple of mares in Germany and bred one to Don Schufro in 2011 and 2012, so know the costs there. The sticker shock was pretty high, but the ability to breed more than one cycle and to actually get a foal was worth it.

However, I really don’t see the logic behind the argument that changes are due to a few mare owners splitting doses. If German mare owners are unhappy about a perceived inequality in prices in comparison with foreign semen buyers, that is something that may be addressed by stallion owners. However, to claim that splitting doses is the reason for hiking dose prices and/or lowering dose sizes seems pretty questionable to me. I suspect it is more politically correct to blame these changes on greedy mare owners than to just admit that they are driven by a profit motive. There is nothing wrong with a profit motive. Eventually the market for frozen semen will correct itself. Those who want the stuff badly enough will buy it whatever the cost. Those that don’t, won’t. It is a stallion owner’s right to price semen any way that they prefer.

I just tire of the semantics and the finger pointing, especially when most mare owners do not split doses.

And, for the record, I have never split doses. In fact, many times I have used multiple doses for a single pregnancy. I think that can be said of most mare owner’s breeding history.

[Manni01]

Also sorry to hijack the thread, but how do you get 2 registrations for two foals from different mares with one semen order???

[password]

Is there some reason why Europeans could not buy frozen semen and split the doses themselves if they believed that the odds were better? Most of the NA breeders that we know use fresh (and yes, risk the chance of paying more!) even when they have the option of frozen from the same stallion.

[Sunnydays]

In response to Manni01 - As a member of the Hanoverian Verband (CHS), we receive breeding certificates from the verband for our active mares, each year. On that form you record the date of each breeding, stallion used (with reg #) each breeding, and whether live cover, AI, transported, frozen. A certified Vet must sign off that this was the semen used on each occasion for insemination. Nowhere does it ask # of straws or doses used for semen, just #/time of inseminations. The AHS might be different.
The straws of frozen have the stallion’s name and collection date on them, and shipments of fresh semen for AI are also identified by the SO, and the inseminating vet verifies what was used.

Password, I believe there are less vets (and farther flung) versed in frozen semen breeding in Germany. And if insemination with fresh only costs about 100-ish Euros each time, for shipping and breeding, the fresh method is even more attractive and less expensive.

[clint]

[QUOTE=password;7074539]
Is there some reason why Europeans could not buy frozen semen and split the doses themselves if they believed that the odds were better? Most of the NA breeders that we know use fresh (and yes, risk the chance of paying more!) even when they have the option of frozen from the same stallion.[/QUOTE]

Of course they could buy frozen by the dose, but they don’t. They buy fresh, because it makes the whole process easier and cheaper, and they have some options if there is no pregnancy. I think DY’s conclusion that prices are rising because North American breeders are successfully splitting doses is a bit of an over-simplification, to say the least. My money would be on the possibility of making more money on the sale of semen by raising the price.

[Manni01]

But I’m still not sure about the procedure… I do give my breeding certificate to my vet, who records the dates and numbers of insemination. And I’m very sure that this certificate then goes to the stallion owner… I just had my mare inseminated and needed a large number of semen because her ovulation did not work as planned. So I received many doses… But I see no way to use these doses for more than one mare??? Because the stallion owner has to sign my breeding certificate… And if I use the semen for 2 mares, why should he sign two certificates???
And in order to get my hopeful future foal registered, I need a paper from the Oldenburger Verband… Something like a confirmation that the sementransaction was correct. And I only get one for one semenorder… And if I dont present this conformation at the registration, I don’t have a proof that the foal is from this stallion…

[GPF]

sorry for the bad quality of the Video but I lost my glasses at this day also blinded by the sun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7-nV6wN5xs

[honeylips]

Manni - frozen semen in the USA does NOT require the semen broker or stallion owner’s signature on the breeding forms for AHS. Only the insemination vet and mare owner signature.

[Underthebridge]

[QUOTE=honeylips;7074655]
Manni - frozen semen in the USA does NOT require the semen broker or stallion owner’s signature on the breeding forms. Only the insemination vet and mare owner signature.[/QUOTE]

Not true.

[Indy-lou]

From Down Yonder’s post:
“I will also add that it wasn’t just the stallion owners in Germany who were in consternation about the reports of dose splitting in NA, AUS/NZ, France, South Africa, etc. MARE owners who knew about the dose splitting going on elsewhere were putting pressure on the stallion stations to do something to make things more equitable.”

More equitable? They could offer breeders there the same opportunity to buy frozen by the dose for the same price as we pay for it here and then those breeders could take their chances without a LFG. I know which way I’d go if given a choice, and that would be fresh with a LFG. The three foals I’ve gotten via frozen by the dose were achieved by purchasing three doses from each of the stallions. The other foals via frozen have been with a contract, and of those, one vet took it upon himself to split a dose for a mare that was double ovulating. The unused semen still has to be returned. Then there were the doses that never produced anything. I agree with Mary Lou; the market will correct itself…to decreased sales. There were a couple of stallions I was interested in purchasing by the dose this year, and the price increase just priced me right out of the market.

[Donella]

To say that breeders have a general advantage in buying frozen semen by the dose is just CRAZY. The vet expenses are at least double , many stallions do not freeze well, many vets are not versed in frozen or ultrasounding ect. There are so many reasons that frozen is more risky, really the only advantage is that we can breed to stallions not available in NA and that the semen is on hand at time of breeding ie don’t have to worry about shipments getting messed up ect.

Of all the stallions I used this year I would GLADLY pay double if I were offered a fresh LFG option. And yes, if it is so advantageous to mare owners why aren’t more European breeders doing it??

[Manni01]

So how do you get registration?? with the signature of the mare owner and the vet??? Do you do DNA testing at the registration??

And by the way, I would not use frozen as long as I can get fresh semen from the same stallion. The vet bill is smaller and I have a bigger chance to get my mare pregnant… And how many people really get two foals after splitting a dose of frozen???

[Donella]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7075579]
So how do you get registration?? with the signature of the mare owner and the vet??? Do you do DNA testing at the registration??[/QUOTE]

For me I register with the Hanoverian verband, so I get breeding certificates sent out for each of my registered broodmares at the beginning of the year by the verband. Once they are bred and confirmed in foal I fill out the info and sign the certificate as I was the one who bred the mare. I send it in at the end of the season and they send me back an abfohlmeldung (sp?) and then when the foal goes to the inspection, or when the Hanoverian representative comes out to brand they fill in the abfohlmeldung and pull hair for a DNA test that would verify that that foal is indeed who I have said it should be.

[honeylips]

Manni-your answerscfor the AHS can be found of their website. For both frozen semem and fresh semen foals. DNA must be done. Foals can be registered in person or by mail.

http://hanoverian.org/frozen-semen-insemination-form-request/
http://hanoverian.org/foal-registration/

And for Oldenburg gov can be found here

http://oldenburghorse.net/upload/pdfs/OHBS-GOV-RuleBook.pdf

[paulamc]

I don’t know about how its done in the USA, I assume its one pregnancy perdose

I am talking about dose splitting where I buy it under terms where I can split the dose

Or alternatively, if I have a dose of Rotspon for instance that is 8 straws per dose, I will use half a dose. if the mare gets pregnant then I have half a dose I cannot use unless I pay another stud fee. If the mare doesn’t, then I have another go out of the one dose of frozen

I am not talking about illegally splitting doses and as people are saying, why would you split doses when you cannot get a foal registered - it is pointless

Only some german studs talk about dose splitting - many of them sell the semen unrestricted as to use and its the semen agents that put the one pregnancy per dose on it. I have had the owner of Belissimo M, Swarovksi and others telling me I can split the dose and get as many pregnancies as I want from it, for instance

I know de niro has had his straws reduced because they are not happy about dose splitting but really so many people do not get any pregnancies from the semen at all, I cannot see why a few extra pregnancies would matter

frozen semen in Germany is cheap - it is from 150 euro up to 500 mainly, with a few stallions over this. De Niro is 870 Euro, quarterback is 700 Euro etc and there are really great discounts for buying semen in bulk

I imported semen from Germany myself and could no way have afforded to buy the same amount from the semen agents here

Paulamc

[Bats79]

[QUOTE=Donella;7075537]
To say that breeders have a general advantage in buying frozen semen by the dose is just CRAZY. The vet expenses are at least double , many stallions do not freeze well, many vets are not versed in frozen or ultrasounding ect. There are so many reasons that frozen is more risky, really the only advantage is that we can breed to stallions not available in NA and that the semen is on hand at time of breeding ie don’t have to worry about shipments getting messed up ect.

Of all the stallions I used this year I would GLADLY pay double if I were offered a fresh LFG option. And yes, if it is so advantageous to mare owners why aren’t more European breeders doing it??[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. Here in Australia it can cost $1,000 per insemination cycle in vet fees alone, plus your semen. The semen is the cheap part of it in many cases.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7074486]
However, I really don’t see the logic behind the argument that changes are due to a few mare owners splitting doses. If German mare owners are unhappy about a perceived inequality in prices in comparison with foreign semen buyers, that is something that may be addressed by stallion owners. However, to claim that splitting doses is the reason for hiking dose prices and/or lowering dose sizes seems pretty questionable to me. I suspect it is more politically correct to blame these changes on greedy mare owners than to just admit that they are driven by a profit motive.

I just tire of the semantics and the finger pointing, especially when most mare owners do not split doses.[/QUOTE]

ML, with all due respect - I was the one that was there during that dinner conversation with Klappi. I know what was said, and I know what the general tone of the conversation was. The fact is that the German stallion owners were bewildered about WHY people would split doses. In the SO’s mind, they were selling “an insemination dose”, and believed that buyers were well aware they were buying “an insemination dose”. And that bewilderment had grown into frustration as the stallion owners began to realize how widespread dose splitting had become (there were reports coming in not just from NA, but also from Australia, South Africa, France, etc.). Their response was to raise prices on the stallions whose doses were most frequently being split. And as the dose splitting continued, some stallion stations started reducing the number of straws where feasible, while still shipping an industry standard insemination dose.

So, yes - the jump in prices, and reduction in some cases of the number of straws was a direct consequence of the fact that people all over the globe were splitting doses. The end result may very well be a downturn in semen sales, and there may be adjustments made on prices in some cases (Sandro Hit is now at $1800/dose, well down from the $2500/dose of a few years ago - but in his case, the price reduction is partly driven by the fact that the dressage breeding base in Germany has become pretty saturated with those bloodlines).

[DownYonder]

As for breeding certs - I know OHBS/GOV requires one per foal, and it has to be signed by the stallion owner or agent, and the inseminating vet/technician.

[back_in_the_saddle]

AHS required the inseminating vet signature but that was all.