So maybe thats the problem…
As for breeding certs - I know OHBS/GOV requires one per foal, and it has to be signed by the stallion owner or agent, and the inseminating vet/technician.
Yes… and no. Yes for the inseminating vet/tech but when I do my own breeding (not the frozen, but the rest I do it myself most of the time), but if I am the one who puts the semen in the mare, I am the one who signs it.
Regarding the signature of SO or agent, yes it is true for fresh semen breedings. But for frozen ones… not always. I had a Graf Top I colt in 2008 that we registered with GOV and I presented, along with the breeding certificate, the invoice for the dose I bought. I did not had a signature from the Canadian Hanoverian Society (agent) or Langestut Celle, because I was not registering the foal Hanoverian. But then, I got the breeding cert. signed from Marefield Meadows for our Dauphin filly from last year, but I guess it is because Dauphin’s owner is in NA and sells the semen here. Not sure I would have got one from Celle.
An anecdote: I bought in 2007 2 doses from an semen broker in NA, 1 Chacco Blue and 1 Daddy Cool. Back then I was planning to go to ISR OldNA for the registration of the foals. When the agent asked me for wich registry I will need breeding certificates, I answered ISR OldNA, and the agent refused to give me a breeding cert for ISR Oldenburg NA. She said that she was not delivering breeding cert for this particular registry. Would have liked to know before sending money, but well, both mares turned out to be not-pregnant so it ended the matter there. I guess if I would have had foals from these doses, I would have had to do without signed breeding certificates…
[QUOTE=Spike;7075870]
An anecdote: I bought in 2007 2 doses from an semen broker in NA, 1 Chacco Blue and 1 Daddy Cool. Back then I was planning to go to ISR OldNA for the registration of the foals. When the agent asked me for wich registry I will need breeding certificates, I answered ISR OldNA, and the agent refused to give me a breeding cert for ISR Oldenburg NA. She said that she was not delivering breeding cert for this particular registry.[/QUOTE]
Why would a frozen semen agent refuse to give someone a breeding cert for a certain registry?
DY, perhaps the SOs would have had a more clear picture if they kept records on pregnancy rates as they compare to doses sold, rather than just becoming incensed by reports of splitting doses that no doubt came from people reading internet bbs, talking to friends who heard from someone who heard from someone else that “so and so split a dose and got more than one foal”. I firmly believe that such records would clearly prove that many more doses are sold than pregnancies occur, dose splitting or not.
SOs can price their stallions’ semen any way they wish. They can also call anything they want to a “dose.” The market will control what sells.
If a SO wants to specify the number of allowable pregnancies per dose, they should specify it in their sales contract. If they do not have such a contract in place, their assumption that buyers understand their intent that “one insemination dose = one or fewer pregnancies” is quite naive and not enforceable.
As before, I have never split doses. I do all I possibly can to get a pregnancy every time I breed and have never been willing to gamble. Using frozen semen with no guarantees is gamble enough.
As stated GOV (Oldenburg) requires the SO signature–I was just filling one out the other day. Sounds like Hanoverian does not? What about KWPN? I believe RPSI requires the SO signature as well. Not sure about Holstein…
This is interesting. I’m surprised it isn’t all the same I guess.
AHS doesn’t require a breeding certificate. DNA is required for all foals, and when breeding with frozen semen, the person who inseminated the mare signs a form that is submitted for registration.
[B]
I know de niro has had his straws reduced because they are not happy about dose splitting but really so many people do not get any pregnancies from the semen at all, I cannot see why a few extra pregnancies would matter
frozen semen in Germany is cheap - it is from 150 euro up to 500 mainly, with a few stallions over this. De Niro is 870 Euro, quarterback is 700 Euro etc and there are really great discounts for buying semen in bulk
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Ya, gotta love his attitude. So, lets get this straight, the same stallion owner has NO issue whatsoever selling useless frozen semen to mare owners around the world (Caprimond, Hohenstein…most of us here know these stallions don’t freeze), he will happily go the bank and cash their checks knowing that he is selling garbage and yet he is pissed that the odd mare owner splits a dose of De Niro semen?!, which, btw is over $1500.00 here in Canada…almost the price of his fresh cooled that comes with a LFG. Sorry, I just don’t get his attitude at all.
Yes, Klosterhof Medingen and Bockmann stations are some of the ones who only sell one pregnancy per dose
I only recently enquired to them because I was thinking of doing another import myself. I was told that De Niro is now 2 straws per dose and so are most of the other stallions they own - to try and stop dose splitting
I told them that I thought for the few people who might have got more than one foal from a dose of De Niro - there are many many more who have had no pregnancy at all - but they disagreed and said if they found out someone had more than one foal per dose they would make them pay an extra stud fee
Actually with Hohenstein they are now freezing him differently - they are giving a double dose per service fee and there have been a few pregnancies here in Australia with it recently and also I think Judy Yancey had a pregnancy from the HOhenstein frozen - I don’t think it is anywhere near as bad as it used to be
Cant add anything on the Caprimond though, haven’t heard anything there
Paulamc
I think the planets have to be in perfect alignment for Hohenstein to work.
If someone is that upset over split doses, they need to stop selling it. It’s ticking mare
owners off and getting a mare in foal shouldn’t be like winning the lottery. And needing two doses per breeding is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7077206]
I think the planets have to be in perfect alignment for Hohenstein to work.[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t agree more. The “new and improved” frozen semen from Hohenstein didn’t do any better than the original. Was a waste of time and money for me.
[QUOTE=bluemoonfarms;7077720]
I couldn’t agree more. The “new and improved” frozen semen from Hohenstein didn’t do any better than the original. Was a waste of time and money for me.[/QUOTE]
Yet I’m sure the SO isn’t sweating how much you spent on the semen. The ones that sell crap semen that almost never works (and then worry about dose splitting) really just makes me lose faith in buying ANY European frozen semen. One also has to factor in how many cycles and how much time is lost on using crap semen that doesn’t work. I’d like to WHY these stallion owners are getting away with selling frozen semen that doesn’t work? It seems to me the frozen semen biz is due for some regulating. Each “dose” should contain a minimum of progressively motile cells, and the number of PMC per dose should be documented and that paperwork given to mare owners along with each dose. Also, pregnancy stats should be recorded annually and made publicly available to potential purchasers. And if the stallion owners won’t post that info, than WE should.
I remember at one point there was a thread where mare owners were volunteering this information. I think we’d be doing each other a great service to keep up with that reporting, and to do annual totals.
Glad I’m seriously considering retiring from breeding. Everyone has their hand out for $ but I have to assume all of the risks.
Can’t tell you how many times I failed to get a pregnancy…vet informs me that there is no guarantee on their work. Frozen semen …no guarantee from stallion owner or supplier.
Me …guaranteed to foot the bills.
Buyer…are there French fries with that free horse?
Celle stallions are still reasonably priced and I haven’t heard any complaints about them.
Splitting Doses of Frozen
My apologies to the OP, this is another response to splitting doses and yes, it should probably have its’ own thread.
I had expressed my concerns to my vet regarding two doses of frozen semen that I had in my tank because I was very hopeful of getting pregnancies (De Niro and Hohenstein). We used these doses on young, fertile, proven mares … we did everything right. We cultured, did cytology and flushed the mares prior to breeding. We U/S every six hours until it got close to ovulation, and then every 2 hours. We actually brought in his staff to watch an ovulation on the U/S machine when we bred to Hohenstein. I don’t think you can get any better than that. The FOUR STRAW dose of De Niro was used within an hour of ovulation. We worked at making sure it was as good as human’s can make it (and I have the vet bills to prove it).
We didn’t get a pregnancy from either doses of frozen. We used all straws (full doses) and yet both mares did get pregnant on the next cycle (one with frozen and one with fresh cooled) from other stallions. Our vet bills were MUCH higher because I wanted these inseminations monitored even more closely than normally required for using frozen.
If I couldn’t get a pregnancy using 4 straws of De Niro semen … it’s very unlikely that 2 straws is the answer. The De Niro semen was actually analyzed on CASA which showed % Progressively Motile: 21
Yes, I did get the response that there have been pregnancies using Hohenstein but no one in my group nor circle of breeder friends has gotten lucky.
I have to go back to my original statements in the breeder’s group … if the “ONLY” reason the SO’s are reducing straws and swimmers is their concern regarding splitting straws, then change to 5 mil straws. Problem solved! Making it more difficult for MOs who are not splitting doses to get a pregnancy is ridiculous and self-defeating.
Well I ma guilty of trying the “new and improved” Hohenstein semen. Needless to say I still don’t have a Hohenstein foal:(
I am OK if stallion owners want to sell crap semen…as long as it is represented as such. I am OK taking a known gamble. However, I am not OK with them selling crap semen but advertising as new and improved and quite successful. I was at Klosterhof and was told by the breeding manager that the new freezing process and increased straws was quite successful, i was told the same thing by the US rep. However, when I asked how many pregnancies were achieved the answer was “there are pregnancies”. Stupidly, I brushed that aside and took the gamble.
My new rule using frozen is either a stallion that is proven (such as Rotspon or the like) or one with a LFG (like Lemony’s Nicket). I’ll let others gamble with their $$ on the young hot stallions and see what happens.
I do think stallion owners are trying to have their cake and eat it too. European breeders will always have the advantage with fresh access to these stallions…let alone they have no collection fees, cheaper semen shipping fees, etc.
I think the FB page collecting data regarding success of each stallions frozen is a great place to start. This is a science and an art. We can at least collect the data for the science part. Of course there is always the mare and the skill of the veterinarian. However, a stallion that has decent overall stats shows that his frozen semen is good, versus a stallion with two pregnancies but 30 attempts clearly rules out the variables of mare and vet skills. It should not be impossible to collect this data either. There are few frozen semen sellers in NA. They can either help or hinder the process by having their clients fill out questionnaires at the end of the breeding season and make that information public. I’m sure that would piss off many stallion owners though!!! However, I would be much more willing to purchase semen from a broker on the MARE owners side:)
The SO’s who are selling a “dose” that won’t get any mares pregnant need to be called out on it.
I am OK if stallion owners want to sell crap semen…as long as it is represented as such. I am OK taking a known gamble. However, I am not OK with them selling crap semen but advertising as new and improved and quite successful. I was at Klosterhof and was told by the breeding manager that the new freezing process and increased straws was quite successful, i was told the same thing by the US rep. However, when I asked how many pregnancies were achieved the answer was “there are pregnancies”. Stupidly, I brushed that aside and took the gamble
Amen. I was told the same thing. A friend of mine bred her mare with this “new and improved” semen and same thing, nada. He is a pretty desirable stallion and there have been a few miraculous pregnancies but there have been many, many attempts, of that I am sure. To me that falls under my definition of " crap semen".
Yes, Klosterhof Medingen and Bockmann stations are some of the ones who only sell one pregnancy per dose
That has never been stipulated to me and I have bought semen from both stations.
This is the sort of thread that needs to go on Facebook in order to achieve more publicity, in my opinion. There are too many stallion owners in Europe that don’t give a hoot about mare owners in foreign countries and the sad thing is that they also have a few supporters in the US. I do think that every mare owner in the US has had the same experiences when it comes to imported frozen semen and it certainly does not support the “they’re splitting doses and are getting a bargain” theory espoused by some of the European stallion owners. In reality, it shouldn’t take as many doses of frozen semen in order to get one pregnancy, or a pregnancy at all, and that’s where we should have a website that publicizes the statistics on imported semen pregnancies. I realize that not all reproductive vets are created equal, but I think it would be an eye opener to get these numbers. Just my opinion…
I know people split doses but have no idea to what extent. I’ve been trying to figure out how to do an anonymous poll to see what percentage we’re talking about.
I think the UDBB has that capability. Shall we start a poll?
Maybe we should put together a questionnaire and start getting it out there collecting data. What questions does one think should be on it?
Stallion name
year semen was frozen
of straws/ breeding dose
protocol used for breeding (i.e.; timed protocol, q6hr)
how close to ovulation insemination
age of mare, maiden, success with frozen in the past
post breeding inflammation
post breeding uterine flush? If so, how often?
This questionnaire could gather two fold info: success of frozen and success of different protocols used.
What other questions would you like to see?
