Shoeing Woes - Advice Appreciated

[Rnichols]

I’m having some issues with getting my horse shod and it’s starting to turn into a problem, as the behavioral issues are not getting resolved. I’m very close to my witts end so turning here for advice and to see what has worked for others. I’ll try to keep our back story as short as possible

My mare is a 4y/o OTTB that I got in April. I do not know what her shoeing experiences were like prior to me getting her. Had my farrier out for the first time about 3-4 weeks after I got her. He pulled her shoes, trimmed, and hot shod her. She was initially fine for all of it, but started getting antsy. Farrier held onto her leg a little too long and she lost her cool, started throwing her self around like a lunatic and ended up knocking his box of tools over. After that she was a terror - he couldn’t even get the back shoes off of. Told me to get some dorm, and came out the next day to do her. Horse is 3 legged lame - turns out she had stepped on a nail. We rehabbed from that yadda yadda yadda and she’s fine and recovered.

I switched farriers after that, not because I really blamed him but because I moved barns and he wasn’t going to come all the way out to where I boarded for one horse. I explained to the new farrier what had happened and asked if he would take us as a client - he said yes. I was very up front with her behavioral issues. I asked if he wanted me to give her dorm the first time he came out and he said no. So he comes to do her and everything is going just swell (she’s standing still, not pulling away from me or the farrier) until he puts the hot shoe on and she looses her mind. Pulls back (we are in an open area, BTW he didn’t want to do her in an enclosed space), leaps into the air, rears straight up…just being a total brat. Farrier grabs the lead rope from me and makes her run in circles (this is his method - if she isn’t going to stand still she can get to work…basically the idea is that listening to him is her best option and makes her life easier). We go through this several times, but he finally gets all 4 feet done (took ~ 2 hours). The next time he came out we had a similar issue when he goes to put the hot shoes on, but not as terrible.

Third time (2 weeks ago) he cancels our appt 15 minutes before he is supposed to be there :mad:. Okay, whatever. Rescheduled for the following week (last week) but I had to pay the girl who works at the barn to hold my horse (who also happens to be a good friend of mine) since I couldn’t make it out. Also the mare sliced her leg open and was on stall rest for 4 weeks and then limited turn out for the 5th week. So when he came out to do her she hadn’t been worked for a while due to an injury (which I did let him know). I get a message from the girl after saying the farrier was in a bad mood (he was an hour late for the apt, BTW). Apparently he got into it with her (running her in circles) and things did not go well - but I wasn’t there so I can’t say if it’s any worse than what he’s made her do before or not. He asks my friend if he’s the only one who trains this horse and do I even do anything with the horse (we’re in a training program and was getting worked 5-6 days/week prior to the injury. Pardon me for not having a furnace to practice hot shoeing while you’re not there …)

THEN the mare pulls a shoe on Sunday and he came out today to tack it back on. Not only was he not on time today again, but he also charged me $50 to put the shoe on (which was news to me, every other farrier I know does it free of charge). He also told me how horrible my horse was last time and saying 4+ weeks of stall rest wasn’t an excuse. He says she is a brat and dominant and has no manners. The thing is though, the ONLY time she acts like this is with the farrier. She is super sweet and willing under saddle and on the ground. I don’t have any problems when I pick her feet out or do stretches with her.

If you’ve managed to read this far, THANK YOU!!! Now, I can finally get to the questions!

1. Has anybody else encountered problems with their horse being this awful for the farrier before? She doesn’t try to kick, but just pulls back and rears and doesn’t want to have her hoof messed with for long periods of time.
2. Would you consider switching farriers to see if the mare does better with another one, or stick it out with the current farrier to see if things get better?

[DJohn]

1. I wouldn’t stick with the current farrier. He already harbors some dislike for your horse and she will know that. The fact that he charged you $50 means he doesn’t want you as a client anyways (that’s how they slowly get rid of you, they star charging you more and more $$ until you find someone else). I know this because I know many farriers.

2. Some horses don’t like the lingering smoke. Try turning a fan on and facing it towards the horse (smoke would blow towards her butt and away from her face).

3. Make sure she is used to standing in the crossties without her feet being done. Leave her there for a while (45 mins) and see how she does. I bet she starts pawing and acting out after 10 minutes. As much as I hate doing this, you have to teach them patience somehow. Obviously make sure you supervise. She just has to learn that being a bad girl doesn’t = undoing crossties and leaving the situation.

[Never_quit]

Can you change farriers? Or will you have to changes barns again? Consider it even if you must move. If you do not change now you will only continue to get worse & it will be that much harder for the new farrier to deal with your mare. If you have no one locally that can refer you to a better farrier, ask your vet. Trust your mare. Trust yourself. If she wasn’t good picking her feet up for you, maybe there was an issue. Chasing her in circles may work on some horses but not for TBs, just makes them hotter & when they lose their mind it’s over for the moment. You may have to pay more or not, but my advise is to change sooner rather than later! Good luck

[asterix]

Does she need to be hot shod? Seems to be a trigger. I’ve had multiple horses for a number of years and only had hot shoeing a handful of times.
Agree you should switch farriers.

[Echo55]

Yes, I agree change farriers…

So when I got my wonderful off the track Arabian mare years ago she was horrible for the farrier. Even just to get a trim she would rear and flip over. The advice I got was to tranq her, and after a few good trims (tranquilized) start backing down on the tranq. The more bad experiences they have the worse it will get. For her, it didn’t take too long and she was totally fine, trimming, shoeing, hot shoeing whatever. My last farrier even stated that she was the best horse in the barn.

This doesn’t sound like a behavioral issue to me it sounds like fear. I get what your farrier is trying to do but I know for a fact that if my farrier had tried that on my mare she would have been so much worse, it would have been a bad experience on top of a bad experience. And being an Arab she could go in circles forever.

[cayuse]

I second skipping the hot shoeing. She might be fine without it. Or at least somewhat better. It would be one less thing for her to get upset over.

[Bogie]

Some horses just don’t like certain farriers (and vice versa). I had a horse that had always been good but every.single.time this one guy came, he’d break through the cross ties. Once I replaced the farrier, the behavior stopped.

Not all horses need to be hot shod. And some don’t react well to it. My farrier usually hot shoes my draft x mare (who could care less) but not my TB.

Find someone who is more sympathetic to your mare. If it becomes a confrontation every time, she will start to associate shoeing with stress. I had one horse that got very fidgity. I used one of the calming pastes with her and that helped a lot.

[gypsymare]

Cold shoe her, tranquilize as necessary. After a few good experiences try hot shoeing again with a strong fan aimed at her front end so the smoke doesn’t go near her face.

[Guilherme]

The horse is untrained and has learned that ill behavior is acceptable.

It’s not the job of the farrier to train the horse. That the farrier spent two hours of his time the first time says a lot about said farrier, all of it good.

Go back to basics and train your horse to stand quietly. Just how you do that will vary depending on what training philosophy you follow.

You own the horse. It’s YOUR job to prepare the horse for the farrier. Do your your job and farrier can do theirs.

G.

[jawa]

If your farrier feels comfortable with a tranq’ed horse, this is a time to use one.

I agree that running a TB in circles is not the best way to punish them or get them to do what you want.

Cold shoe until your horse has impeccable manners.

You can try to train for hot shoeing if the farrier will work with you. Just have the farrier not burn the hoof as long. It will create less smoke. You can work to a longer burn each successive shoeing.

I agree having a fan to blow the smoke away from her face would help.

Talking with several farriers, they don’t allow hot shoeing at the track due to the fire risk. So she may have never experienced it before.

[TWH_Girl]

My horse had an issue with hot shoeing. Don’t do it. Cold shoeing is just fine and worked well. No 2-hour shoeing sessions with stress on everyone after that. We did have to switch farriers though too, I think it was too much ingrained in my guy to get past it with the hot shoe farrier…my horse would dance around and poop about 3 times just hearing the guy’s truck pull up…

[TWH_Girl]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8865481]
The horse is untrained and has learned that ill behavior is acceptable.

It’s not the job of the farrier to train the horse. That the farrier spent two hours of his time the first time says a lot about said farrier, all of it good.

Go back to basics and train your horse to stand quietly. Just how you do that will vary depending on what training philosophy you follow.

You own the horse. It’s YOUR job to prepare the horse for the farrier. Do your your job and farrier can do theirs.

G.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. This may or may not be behavioral. Some horses HATE hot shoeing. Period.

[quietann]

My mare’s really good for the farrier. Including hot shoeing, which really surprised me as she had been barefoot her entire life before she came to me, and she’s not exactly the bravest horse in the world. BUT other horses in the barn have freaked out (broken cross-ties, etc.) when she’s been hot-shod.

OP, it does sound like your farrier doesn’t want to be your farrier anymore. I agree with folks who say to start with tranq, and over time, with a generous farrier, you should be able to back down on the tranq.

[Rnichols]

Thank you all so much for reading my novel and your words of advice.

Moving forward, I will definitely be using dorm and going with cold shoeing. My guy told me that cold shoeing isn’t his best work and he prefers hot shoeing, but I think in this case removing the hot shoeing part of the equation will make things easier for everyone. At some point it would be nice to be able to have her hot shod and remove the tranquilizer, but one step at a time. I think the fan is an excellent idea and will definitely try that out when we introduce hot shoeing again. Reading the replies and thinking longer about it, I agree that running her in circles isn’t doing anything for this particular horse. I understand his method and where he is trying to come from, but for my mare it clearly isn’t working. Running her around doesn’t do anything except raise the anxiety and adrenaline. I’m still on the fence about switching (leaning more towards trying out another guy, the one my trainer and several of her students use and who has been recommended to me by three different people, independent of each other). I do feel bad switching after he has made an effort to work with us, but at the end of the day I have to do what’s best for my horse.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8865481]
The horse is untrained and has learned that ill behavior is acceptable.

It’s not the job of the farrier to train the horse. That the farrier spent two hours of his time the first time says a lot about said farrier, all of it good.

Go back to basics and train your horse to stand quietly. Just how you do that will vary depending on what training philosophy you follow.

You own the horse. It’s YOUR job to prepare the horse for the farrier. Do your your job and farrier can do theirs.

G.[/QUOTE]

I agree that it is not the job of the farrier to train the horse, and I also very much appreciate him working with us for a third shoeing cycle now. The thing is - she DOES stand quietly when I’m working with her. She stands in the cross ties fine, she lets me pick her feet up and hold her leg with no issues. It’s hard for me to know HOW to prepare her for the farrier when I don’t encounter any issues but he does. If there is more I can do to make his job easier, I would be more than happy to try to do it. It’s just difficult when I don’t experience the same problems, so I can’t correct the behavior…I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m trying to make excuses, because I’m not. It’s just what more can I do to prepare her when she is good for me, but not good for him?

[Dani]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8865481]
The horse is untrained and has learned that ill behavior is acceptable.

It’s not the job of the farrier to train the horse. That the farrier spent two hours of his time the first time says a lot about said farrier, all of it good.

Go back to basics and train your horse to stand quietly. Just how you do that will vary depending on what training philosophy you follow.

You own the horse. It’s YOUR job to prepare the horse for the farrier. Do your your job and farrier can do theirs.

G.[/QUOTE]

If the horse is only like that with one farrier then I’d be more inclined to believe that she is trained, just doesn’t like that particular person. OP stated that she stands just fine until the hot shoe comes up, sounds like she doesn’t deal well with hot shoes. On top of that, she doesn’t seem to like the person shoeing her and is acting out. The farrier doesn’t like the horse and it probably shows. Put 2 and 2 together, and 4 isn’t a pretty outcome.

[Kolsch]

It sounds like the first farrier pushed her outside her comfort zone to the extent she felt backed into a corner and needed to explode. Now it’s her fear and her default

Working with her yourself, pick her feet up and hold them as a farrier would and find ways to subtlety push her outside of her comfort zone- SAFELY. An aerosol spray can might be a trigger for her. Holding them up for long periods might do it as well.

I have one horse that would blow if farriers locked onto his leg. Some farriers he’d be great for, others he’d blow up or simply stress and fidget. Stance is important. A little give is important. I now shoe him, and he’s a total peach. He’s a senior and I read when he’s becoming uncomfortable- he’s allowed to indicate that he’d like the hoof be put down (very slight pull, or simply a shift of his weight), I ask for him to continue holding it up for just a bit longer, then I let him put it down. That way there’s a quiet conversation that doesn’t lead to either of us having to “shout”, and also doesn’t reward him pulling the hoof away. I also think that like with people, often simply knowing they can do something (have a break if uncomfortable) reduces the feeling that they NEED to do it.

[Kyrabee]

My horse used to lose it when the the shoes were nailed on. Seating the hot shoe…no problem. Not a good time with unwrung nails sticking out to be pulling as hard as she can to get her leg free…for either horse or farrier.

I spent HOURS working with her. Held her feet as the farrier did. Tapped on her feet with a hammer and she did get so she would tolerate that. But I wasn’t driving a nail. The last time she was shod, we ended up having to twitch her to get it done. She acted like each hammer strike went to her brain.

So she was done…with shoes. I keep her barefoot. I do use boots for work (dressage work). 8 years later that arrangement is still working. If I show her, she has no problem barefoot at the local show venues. Where I board, there is a rock migration issue so the boots are for protection.

If she really needed shoes for some therapeutic reason, I would tranq her and hope that worked. Otherwise, boots it is. The boots take about 5 minutes to apply pre-ride and about 2 minutes to pull off. Probably adds up to about the same amount of time as holding her for the farrier every 5-6 weeks. I agree, it is not the farrier’s job to do the training. I gave it my all and had to wave the white flag and find a different way. She is a dream to trim. No issues whatsoever.

Good luck.

Susan

[keysfins]

It might be worthwhile to get a fan going any time you are re-training her “farrier manners”, or other times in the cross ties. That way, it just becomes part of normal handling, and just happens to also be used during farrier work. We have fans set up in our tack stalls and the farrier area, and humans, farriers and horses all seem to enjoy having a breeze–for cooling, and keeping flies off.

If you use a fan only for “farrier training”, the horse may associate the fan with stress and fear from previous farrier experiences. Hope that makes sense.

[stb]

Your horse sounds fearful, and punishing a horse (running in circles) is only going to make things worse. I would be changing farriers, using a tranquilizer for a time if needed, and cold shoe only. If your horse didn’t have bad feelings about that particular farrier to start with she probably does now. Best to start over with someone new.

Also, my farrier is so patient and quiet with horses, that I can’t imagine him chasing one around as punishment. He’s all about keeping things low key and quiet. He is persistent in making them behave but he doesn’t ever escalate things - quite the opposite in fact. He’s a gem.

[Mango20]

One of the best things my farrier has done when working with my new or young horses is to give them a break mid-trim. This might help your horse. He’d trim a foot or two, then put them back in their stalls when they’d start to get upset, and he’d work on another horse. Then, he’d pull the young one back out to finish the job. The horses did much better with two shorter farrier sessions than one long one.

I have one horse who objected to hot shoeing when she first came, but not as violently as yours. My farrier bribed her with treats for tolerating it (with giant eyes and big snorting nostrils). I was surprised and thought he must have mellowed with age or something, because he has always been a “don’t take any crap” type of farrier. The horse is fine with it now.