[QUOTE=TWH Girl;8865535]
I disagree. This may or may not be behavioral. Some horses HATE hot shoeing. Period.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Horses can be trained very easily to accept hot shoeing. This is a situation where the horse is training the human. The human is accepting bad behavior and excusing it.
OP, you just need to train your horse up. It’s not that bid of a deal and you should be able to get this problem fixed pretty easily.
First and foremost, it’s time for a new farrier. Your farrier clearly hates your horse and despises shoeing her, so ditch him.
Secondly, make sure your new farrier who is comfortable cold shoeing. There is no reason that she has to be hot shod when cold shoeing will achieve the same results, with less fear on her end. I would be far more inclined to do a cold shoe before tranqing the mare to be shod.
[QUOTE=TWH Girl;8865535]
I disagree. This may or may not be behavioral. Some horses HATE hot shoeing. Period.[/QUOTE]
And some horses hate going through water, gunfire, needles, loud motorcycles, people wearing backpacks, dewormer, etc. If that something that the horse just doesn’t like is not essential to their use or health/safety/welfare then don’t do it. If it is then teach the horse to tolerate it.
Sorry, this one’s on the owner. It’s her problem to solve, not the farrier’s.
G.
Random question: is there another horse, or two, who stands perfectly for the farrier who could go before yours in line, and you could park your mare in the crossties behind them to just hang out and watch, get groomed, eat carrots, etc while the other guy gets shod? then it’s her turn, she’s hopefully relaxed (this might take a couple tries) and sees another horse getting shod and it’s no big deal? Are there other horses in the barn when she’s getting shod, or is it the middle of the day and everyone else is turned out except her?
Our mare is not naughty for the farrier, at all, but she has some physical issues that make it hard for her and for him. It was his idea to do her after turn in, because she doesn’t like being in by herself, and I know he often brings in a couple horses and lets one chill in the crossties while he works on an easy trim, sometimes going back and forth between two to give each one a break.
I agree that some sedation would be a good idea at this point, but a little positive role modeling by another horse might help, too.
OP, two things jump out at me:
It’s just been my experience, which is not to say all race tracks are this way, but I haven’t seen many hot-shoeing farriers in my neck of the woods at the track. They all, as far as I know, cold-set. The horses are re-shod quite frequently - more frequent than most sport schedules.
It very well may have been your mare’s first time and a hot-shoe is a very shocking thing for first timers; I don’t blame horses for being fearful of it. I have seen horses move their leg for whatever reason (a fly, disobedience, whatever) and get positively branded by the shoe and then permanently associate the farrier with pain… For me, it isn’t worth it.
As we know, it only takes one bad experience for a mare to say “never again”. 
I’m betting she was surprised by the noise/smell/sensation (which horses recognize innately is BAD - they’re burning!) and when she was punished thereafter, came to the conclusion that she wanted no part in any future endeavors with that person.
I would switch farriers definitely, and I would look for other options besides hot-shoeing.
Additionally, it has never been my experience that making a horse circle/move around when they’re fearful has worked. I have never witness it work for someone else either. When they’re scared I don’t think treating them like they’re being disobedient is the right way to go. You want to teach them to stand still when they’re scared, not dance around at the end of the shank like a kite in a thunderstorm.
I propose that this problem is two, nay, threefold:
So, my suggestion is to work on having her stand as you bring objects to her feet, pick them out, etc. Don’t punish her for moving back or being afraid. Calmly re-position and retry.
Then, when it is time for her farrier visit, dorm or torb her. I think she needs to have a few good experiences even if it is cold-set. Get a new farrier and tell the farrier no hot shoeing for this mare.
I have never seen a good outcome, for horse, farrier, or client, when one part of the party despises or looks down upon the other part. The farrier has a chip on his shoulder, your mare has a chip on her shoulder, you probably have a chip on your shoulder – time to move onto better things.
My horse is barefoot but was fearful of the farrier at first. He also had anxiety when others got hot shoed…I think it was the smell, because I had to use a different guy once to fix a bad chip, and he came from hot shoeing at another barn all day and smelled strongly of burned foot. Horse took one whiff of him and started dancing around. The guy was patient, thankfully. I had one farrier who wasn’t patient, and we fired each other in pretty short order. I also never used to tie him. I just held him and used a stud chain.
After my horse was laid up for a while, I thought he might need shoes to make it thru the hard, dry summer ground. I was worried how he would be even for cold set. I didn’t want to drug him (sometimes they blow thru it anyway), but I’d been using Confidence EQ some during rehab and found he stood like a rock on the cross ties when using it. So, I started using it for farrier visits. I wound up not putting shoes on, but his behavior in general is much better. The farrier commented on the last trim (with no Confidence EQ used), how well behaved he was. He is finally learning just to take a nap while his feet get done, and he can be on the cross ties.
I have also had him near others when they are getting hot shoed, and he is much less reactive. I’m hoping that it won’t be a total disaster if we eventually put shoes on, but I would start with cold shoeing to get him used to the hammering part first.
TL;DR - work with ways to desensitize her to the farrier and the noises and sights and smells when it is not her appointment time. Use drugs or another calmer to help reduce anxiety until she no longer has a need to be anxious. I have no idea what made my horse anxious at first, but just the sight of the tool cart would make him freak out. And this is a barefoot horse! Some of them just have anxiety issues, and it takes time and patience to work through it.
[QUOTE=Dani;8865605]
If the horse is only like that with one farrier then I’d be more inclined to believe that she is trained, just doesn’t like that particular person.[/QUOTE]
The way I read the original post it is two farriers, not just one.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8865833]I disagree. Horses can be trained very easily to accept hot shoeing. This is a situation where the horse is training the human. The human is accepting bad behavior and excusing it.
OP, you just need to train your horse up. It’s not that bid of a deal and you should be able to get this problem fixed pretty easily.[/QUOTE]
I think the OP is asking for ideas on how to do this. How to train her horse when her horse does not act up for her.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8866217]
The way I read the original post it is two farriers, not just one.
I think the OP is asking for ideas on how to do this. How to train her horse when her horse does not act up for her.[/QUOTE]
Do we know this? Can she mimic the actions of the farrier (the position, the pulling, the time, etc.)? Almost any routinely handled horse will stand for a hoof cleaning. But not all that tolerate a quick cleaning will stand for the extended period that trimming, rasping, and shoeing take (hot or cold). Since we do not know this I’ll not presume it.
This horse likely needs to go back to the round pen for some work in paying attention to his handler. If the handler does not have the obedience of the horse then they are not in full control of the horse. I doubt most OTTBs have had much in the way of good quality ground handling training. They usually get just enough so the grooms and trainers and jockeys can work with them. At this point I recommend the OP read Littauer’s Common Sense Horsemanship and follow his program. Not only will the horse then stand for the farrier without major issues he’ll be a much better “equine citizen” across the board.
G.
Barefoot is not an option for us. She has typical crappy TB feet - I didn’t get hinds last time because of where her injury was and they are already falling apart.
Ah, this is a great idea! Yes, it’s typically done in the middle of the day when most of the other horses are turned out. He also takes her behind the barn where there’s room to “run” her…well behind the barn there’s a bunch of flies (manure pile) and also no other horses. As i’m typing this I’m thinking “wow…not the best place to shoe!!”. Stupid me!
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8866217]The way I read the original post it is two farriers, not just one.
I think the OP is asking for ideas on how to do this. How to train her horse when her horse does not act up for her.[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly. I believe the first farrier probably was just a little to aggressive with a 4 y/o OTTB and held on to her leg too long and didn’t let go. Caused panic which then caused her to hit his toolbox and step on the nail, which I’m sure was incredibly painful. But I don’t know if that caused this, or if she was a brat to farriers at the track as well.
Beowulf I agree - I have never seen making a horse run in circles really “work” either. I do kind of wish I hadn’t allowed the farrier to do that, because now I may have made the situation worse (making a fearful horse even more fearful). And yes you’re right - between myself, my mare and the farrier I don’t think any of us really likes the farrier that much and I’m sure he probably doesn’t like us either! She was on stall rest, but as of last Friday has started back to work. Stall rest does terrible things to horses, I think she is VERY happy to be working again!
I agree that hot shoeing might be a trigger that could be avoided until she gets better.
Some farriers are just more patient than others, as well. My farrier loves TBs, loves racing and will bend over backwards to help a horse learn to accept the farrier. And he doesn’t hot shoe my mare because he’s seen horses blow up like yours, and she is an OTTB ex-broodmare…her response to the smoke was very concerned but not explosive, and he thought it would be better not to give her a bad experience. He does use a forge, but will cool the shoe before setting it.
Maybe you can ask around for a referral for a farrier that will work WITH you and your horse. Be willing to pay more for the extra time it might take the farrier, and offer this up front.
Yes, all horses can be trained. And so can this one. But if a farrier isn’t willing to work with you and help, they may be setting you back instead.
Also - my experience with oral dorm has been so-so. Sometimes great, sometimes too much, sometimes seems not to work at all. Ask the farrier what they think before using it - some farriers are happier working with a horse that hasn’t been tranq’ed even if it takes longer.
Snipped for brevity
[QUOTE=Rnichols;8866292]
Beowulf I agree - I have never seen making a horse run in circles really “work” either. I do kind of wish I hadn’t allowed the farrier to do that, because now I may have made the situation worse (making a fearful horse even more fearful). And yes you’re right - between myself, my mare and the farrier I don’t think any of us really likes the farrier that much and I’m sure he probably doesn’t like us either! She was on stall rest, but as of last Friday has started back to work. Stall rest does terrible things to horses, I think she is VERY happy to be working again![/QUOTE]
The Object of the Exercise is not to move the horse in circles. It is to convince the horse to move when the human says “move” and stop when the human says “stop.” By definition that means repetition and training the horse to said Object. If all the human is doing is trying to tire out the horse then they are on a futile quest. I know that this quest is pretty common but that doesn’t make it a Good Idea.
If you have effective control over your horse then put them in the crossties every day and play “farrier” with them. Get them used to the position, the time, and the stresses that will be put on their feet. You’re not the farrier but you can mimimc much of what the farrier does. That means that when the farrier gets there, either the old one or the new one, the horse will have learned some “basics” and the experience should be more pleasant for all.
If you don’t have effective control over your horse then get that before you try the “farrier” game.
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8866502]
Snipped for brevity
The Object of the Exercise is not to move the horse in circles. It is to convince the horse to move when the human says “move” and stop when the human says “stop.” By definition that means repetition and training the horse to said Object. If all the human is doing is trying to tire out the horse then they are on a futile quest. I know that this quest is pretty common but that doesn’t make it a Good Idea.
If you have effective control over your horse then put them in the crossties every day and play “farrier” with them. Get them used to the position, the time, and the stresses that will be put on their feet. You’re not the farrier but you can mimimc much of what the farrier does. That means that when the farrier gets there, either the old one or the new one, the horse will have learned some “basics” and the experience should be more pleasant for all.
If you don’t have effective control over your horse then get that before you try the “farrier” game.
G.[/QUOTE]
As I have stated before, I understand the rationale behind this method. That being said, I have never seen it work. I personally do not run her around - this is what the farrier does when she decides to be naughty for him. The farrier also doesn’t want to do her in the cross ties (has said this before he even met the mare) he does her out in the open.
I am pretty sure I have said this, but just in case you missed it - the mare is not bad for me. I repeat, she is not bad for me. She’s not bad when I pick up her feet or tap on them with the hoof pick. She lets me stand there and hold her leg and stretch the front leg out, etc.
For the record, I don’t think the farrier coming out is a “game”. I am trying my best to make a bad situation better and to make it safe for both the horse and the farrier.
I thank everybody for their responses which provided words of advice and helpful tips. I think I have a lot to work with now and have new things to try moving forward
I agree with the consensus view that you need a new farrier who is willing to cold-shoe, and who doesn’t already dislike your horse.
I’d try (if possible) working her before the farrier comes, so she’s thinking about being a trained animal.
It might also make sense (if you don’t tranq her) to try giving her some bute beforehand, just in case there is some stiffness or soreness that makes holding the hooves up for long periods of time uncomfortable. If possible, have her standing on a rubber mat as well.
Also, if the horse begins to get antsy as she’s being worked on, ask if you can take a brief break and just walk her around for a minute or two, maybe doing some minimal ground work. In other words, intervene before the antsy behavior escalates. It will take longer, and you should offer to pay the farrier an overcharge if you have to do this, but it might also lay some of the bad behavior to rest.
[QUOTE=Rnichols;8866510]
As I have stated before, I understand the rationale behind this method. That being said, I have never seen it work. I personally do not run her around - this is what the farrier does when she decides to be naughty for him. The farrier also doesn’t want to do her in the cross ties (has said this before he even met the mare) he does her out in the open.
I am pretty sure I have said this, but just in case you missed it - the mare is not bad for me. I repeat, she is not bad for me. She’s not bad when I pick up her feet or tap on them with the hoof pick. She lets me stand there and hold her leg and stretch the front leg out, etc.
For the record, I don’t think the farrier coming out is a “game”. I am trying my best to make a bad situation better and to make it safe for both the horse and the farrier.
I thank everybody for their responses which provided words of advice and helpful tips. I think I have a lot to work with now and have new things to try moving forward :)[/QUOTE]
For what it’s worth OP, I believe you.
I have a horse myself that I have never had an issue with - I can put studs on his feet, pack, clean out his hooves, etc just fine and he has never given me a problem… But every time someone else holds him for the farrier if I am stuck at work I get reports on how he was a Class A pill. I don’t tolerate any of that crap, so it surprises me… but I think horses also have a fair idea of who they are willing to be temporarily rendered immobile for… and who they’d prefer to have all four feet on the ground when around…
Anyway, I wanted to solve this issue since I kind of sort of like my farrier… He can be rough around the edges and I’ve seen him once or twice be verbally angry with a rude horse (but never physical) and my TB is a bit of a Shrinking Violet so I know I needed to work on TB’s sense of humor… So I made a game for my guy. I used a clicker which is a fairly involved process but if you’re looking for the quick and dirty, treats are fine too.
I found a milk carton and he has to hold his front legs for 30 seconds. Reward. Then he has to put his front hoof on the milk carton for 30 seconds. Reward. Back is trickier but it’s the same thing - 30 second is a long time especially when you think of how we really only need 2-3 seconds to pick out a hoof…
You eventually expand the time the hoof needs to be suspended. I like to tinker around with the feet too especially now that studs are a part of our XC repertoire. Maybe make it a daily goal to pull out the cotton, practice twisting in the studs or threading new cotton in the drilled holes, clean hoof completely, paint keratex or durasole on the feet, etc…
Anyway my guy was kind of a little bit dingly about his LH which I suspect may have been what the handlers were referring to. He has an old injury (medial & lateral collateral ligament rupture) and he starts to get resistant about that hind limb being in the air around 45 seconds just like clockwork every time, so I think it’s a legitimate complaint on his behalf… but he is not allowed to snatch the leg away.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8865481]
The horse is untrained and has learned that ill behavior is acceptable.
It’s not the job of the farrier to train the horse. That the farrier spent two hours of his time the first time says a lot about said farrier, all of it good.
Go back to basics and train your horse to stand quietly. Just how you do that will vary depending on what training philosophy you follow.
You own the horse. It’s YOUR job to prepare the horse for the farrier. Do your your job and farrier can do theirs.
G.[/QUOTE]
As hard as it is to hear it is true. it is your job to do what it takes for her to behave.
Spend time holding your mares back legs up. Picking out a foot takes no time at all compared to what your farrier does. Just increase the length of time you hold it up.
Stop the hot shoeing if possible.
Or get a professional to work with her.
I have had one instance when my 3 did not like the farrier. He never did anything at all to cause it that I could see. He was patient and kind every visit. It ended up to where I had to trim my mule because he would try and kick the farrier. The horses were just awful too.
We moved and I found a new farrier and told him upfront the whole story. He had no issues at all with the horses and after 2 trims the mule was sweet as pie for him.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8865833]
I disagree. Horses can be trained very easily to accept hot shoeing. This is a situation where the horse is training the human. The human is accepting bad behavior and excusing it.
OP, you just need to train your horse up. It’s not that bid of a deal and you should be able to get this problem fixed pretty easily.[/QUOTE]
Okay. Enlighten us. How does one train a horse to accept hot shoeing?
If you don’t have to, why do it?? Not everything needs to be a battle with horses. We went to cold shoeing and my horse is fine. Why do I need to endure 2 hours of stress and unsafe behavior for me, my horse, and my farrier?? We can choose to do something different. Not everyone has to train a horse to accept everything we put upon them. I pick my battles and hot shoeing wasn’t one of them.
[QUOTE=Rnichols;8865353]
Plenty of times. Horses who get sick of the Farrier and decide to rear or leave are a PIA. It’s at least twice the work. Nobody wants to pay for the extra time. They make you late for your next appointment and you can’t even give an ETA because you have no idea how long it’s going to take.
- Would you consider switching farriers to see if the mare does better with another one, or stick it out with the current farrier to see if things get better?
Some horses do better with another Farrier. Two Farriers and problems with each? If you’re happy with the work, you might consider keeping him around for as long as he’s willing to keep shoeing your horse.
Years ago they’d just get some rope and let the horse work it out with the rope when he got sick of the Farrier. Fortunately or unfortunately that’s really not acceptable these days.
I think most replies are suggesting cold fitting not cold shoeing.
[QUOTE=Bogie;8865444]
Some horses just don’t like certain farriers (and vice versa). I had a horse that had always been good but every.single.time this one guy came, he’d break through the cross ties. Once I replaced the farrier, the behavior stopped.
Not all horses need to be hot shod. And some don’t react well to it. My farrier usually hot shoes my draft x mare (who could care less) but not my TB.
Find someone who is more sympathetic to your mare. If it becomes a confrontation every time, she will start to associate shoeing with stress. I had one horse that got very fidgity. I used one of the calming pastes with her and that helped a lot.[/QUOTE]
This happened with one of my horses. She had an abscess so I called another farrier because the regular one was out of town. The guy came with an assistant, and I kind of think it was the assistant she was reacting to, but who knows. Anyway, this mare occasionally acts up with the regular farrier, as in, tries to pull her foot away before the farrier is ready. The regular farrier holds on, talks to her firmly and she behaves. There are no big dramatic fireworks.
Well, the new guy came out, tried to pick up her foot and she became a rodeo horse, rearing up, scrambling back, snorting, trembling. It was so bad the farrier refused to work on her. This farrier had a calm and professional demeanor and did nothing to provoke her that I could see, and he had a good reputation. I don’t think it was him, or at least, not anything he was doing wrong.
When the regular farrier came back, the mare was fine and has remained so. I’ve had her for eight years now and I’ve only had that one incident. Her regular farrier is a woman. I don’t know if that is part of the equation or not.
[QUOTE=TWH Girl;8866645]
Okay. Enlighten us. How does one train a horse to accept hot shoeing?
If you don’t have to, why do it?? Not everything needs to be a battle with horses. We went to cold shoeing and my horse is fine. Why do I need to endure 2 hours of stress and unsafe behavior for me, my horse, and my farrier?? We can choose to do something different. Not everyone has to train a horse to accept everything we put upon them. I pick my battles and hot shoeing wasn’t one of them.[/QUOTE]
The same way you teach a horse anything. And for the record, it’s the OP who decided to hot shoe the horse, it was not my recommendation. But she has a horse who picks and chooses when it will behave, so it needs more training. Lots of holes in that foundation.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8866805]
The same way you teach a horse anything. And for the record, it’s the OP who decided to hot shoe the horse, it was not my recommendation. But she has a horse who picks and chooses when it will behave, so it needs more training. Lots of holes in that foundation.[/QUOTE]
Considering most of us don’t have a forge or blacksmith material, how does one acclimate a flighty horse to the sensation of being hot-shod?
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