Sickle Hocks

[Fantastic]

I am curious to know about Sickle Hocks and soundness in Sport Horses.

To those of you who have known of horses with sickle hocks (the ones I am thinking of are slight);

1. Was their performance hindered by SH?
2. Was their soundness compromised by SH?
3. Did the owner do anything special to prolong soundness?
4. What level did the horse achieve before having a problem?
5. Are horses with SH shod in any special or different way than their lesser hock angled counterparts?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated.

[columbus]

If you look at the Dutch Warmblood stallion evaluations sickle hocks to some degree are very very common in both jumpers and dressage horses. They evaluate them in the range of sickle to too straight. Few are correct the majority are some part sickled and some are too straight. PatO

[Fantastic]

Thanks PatO!

Can anyone tell me about FEI horses with SH? Are they still able to sit and take the weight without torching their hocks?

More maintenance than “normal” hocked horses? I believe the straighties need more maintenance, too? (more inclined to fuse faster in straighties?).

[Oakstable]

Jazz, the NO. 1 Dutch stallion for dressage, has sickle hocks.

[LaurieB]

Kentucky Derby winner Giacomo: http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=6484356&origin=singlesearch

[Donella]

I read part of Dr Mikael Holmstrom’s thesis and he states that the one trait that was not found in any of the upper level dressage horse’s that he studied was sickle hocks. I know someone who has worked with him (who was also competative internationally in the sport) and she thinks it is the worst conformational fault a potential dressage horse can have.

Considering that collection requires so much more weight to be carried by the hocks it only makes sense that they be well supported to be able to withstand that kind of stress.

Slight over angulation may not be of such a concern (I don’t know)…to me slight anything is not very concerning. But full on sickle hocks are something I would never breed to or buy.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=Fantastic;5355913]
I am curious to know about Sickle Hocks and soundness in Sport Horses.

To those of you who have known of horses with sickle hocks (the ones I am thinking of are slight);

1. Was their performance hindered by SH?
2. Was their soundness compromised by SH?
3. Did the owner do anything special to prolong soundness?
4. What level did the horse achieve before having a problem?
5. Are horses with SH shod in any special or different way than their lesser hock angled counterparts?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]

I’ll offer up one of my OTTB’s as an example:
http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac126/naturalequus/Link/DSC_0092.jpg
(please excuse his lack of topline, abs, and general fitness :winkgrin:)

1. No, and sickle hocks are pretty common among racehorses. He had 22 starts and earned over $38K before being pulled off the track as a 4yo. He was on his way up as a 3yo (winning at 25K) but his 4yo career was dismal - not due to his hocks though, but because his previous owner refused chiro treatment that would have ensured his success. He was FIT and would keep up with the pack and even return to the barn with barely a drop of sweat and barely breathing (as his groom, it would take me 5min to cool him out) - he just wasn’t putting in the effort because he was hurting; once we had him aligned chiropractically (his pelvis was BADLY misaligned), he IMMEDIATELY improved and put the effort into his work again. We still chose not to run him after purchasing him. HIGHLY athletic horse who currently shows GREAT promise over fences.
2. No, despite running races week after week as a 4yo prior to being pulled from the track. Never a lame day in his life.
3. No, not other than supplements; owner was cheap. I do nothing preventative myself.
4. No problems, but he was running and winning at 25K prior to being pulled off the track due to his pelvis.
5. I trust and respect my farrier and he does not feel so, despite the expectations and workload of this horse.

So far, I am impressed, though only time and a SJ career will really tell I suppose. Of course I am expecting possible maintenance after and during his future career anyways, SH’s aside; we’ll see.

Sickle hocks are not something I normally would have gone for, but on a horse who ran HARD from 2-4, without any soundness issues, who showed a LOT of promise as a racehorse and who remains a VERY athletic horse with a promising sj career, I am not concerned. I think one has to consider the individual horse, and some conformational “faults” are actually considered okay or even “assets” in some disciplines.

As far as shifting weight back, this horse does NOT naturally shift his weight onto his hinds as easily as does his sister or any of my other OTTB’s; he has taken longer to teach such and requires a ton of exercises that encourage him to step beneath himself. However I personally attribute this more to the rest of his build (long barrel, long back, general long lanky build, etc) than the SH’s specifically. His sister is slightly SH’d, though to a lesser degree, and she rounds up beautifully, naturally. Short back and a general build that allows for such, though. Same for the other two OTTB’s we own (here and here). Who knows, their being less-to-not SH’d (depending on the horse) may have something to do with it too.

I place far less importance on it than I used to, at least in regards to racing and SJ (and cow horses, for that matter), since it seems to be prevalent in such disciplines and highly successful horses have competed - sound - in said disciplines. That said, I do not think SH’s are considered okay in dressage horses and would likely not purchase a dressage prospect with SH’s.

[naturalequus]

I’m not as picky about sickle hocks as I used to be, depending on the use of the horse and the rest of the horse’s conformation, etc. It seems rather common in successful racehorses, show jumpers, and cow horses. I wouldn’t look for it in a dressage horse however; it is not a trait valued in dressage.

Of our 4 OTTB’s, 3 have some sort of degree of SH’s. Only one of the three is what I would consider relatively successful on the track (earnings of over 38K with 22 starts, running and winning at 25K before going downhill due to - believe it or not, a severe chiropractic misalignment his owner refused to look into and fix), though he was unable to realise his potential fully, due to his owner’s fault, but not due to any unsoundness. He ran hard as a 2, 3, and 4yo, on all types of sh!tty surfaces, and has never had an unsound day in his life, yet he is the one with the most “severe” SH’s. He shows great promise as a SJ prospect (huge scope!) and is amazingly athletic and powerful. I wouldn’t say that SH’s contribute to the latter gelding’s increased difficulty at collection - I would have to attribute it to his generally long and lanky build instead. He is now tracking up nicely and his level of collection is progressing with the appropriate exercises and patterns. His half-sister and one of the other two OTTB’s we own have mild SH’s yet round and balance easily and naturally without much work, due to their short backs and general build though that lends to such carriage. As far as preventative measures including shoeing or such, I do not take any preventative measures and my farrier (whom I trust and respect) does not recommend anything over and above the norm (he is barefoot, to boot). I cannot give you any FEI examples though, but there ARE plenty of successful SJ’s with SH’s if you look!

[stolensilver]

Echo the previous post that noted that Jazz has sickle hocks and tends to pass them on. He is the number 1 dressage sire in the world by a big margin and his stock tend to stay sound.

On a more personal level my mare had slight sickle hocks. She jumped 1m70 and competed to PSG and retired sound at 16. She only retired then because I wanted to have babies from her. She is now 18, carrying her second foal and still sound.

The more I learn about performance horses and soundness issues the more I think that perfect conformation is nowhere near as important as we think it is. I now put far more weight on the soundness record of the sire and dam and any siblings than I do on small variations from ideal conformation. Most lamenesses are due to soft tissue injury. If a horse has poor quality soft tissues the best conformation in the world is not going to stop that tissue from breaking down under stress. The opposite is also true: if a horse has top quality soft tissues but appaling conformation the strain on the ligaments and tendons caused by the poor biomechanics may cause the soft tissues to break. But you can see dreadful conformation and avoid buying a horse who has it. Poor quality soft tissues are invisible and it takes a lot of time and effort to unearth whether a particular line of horses break down at an early age or not.

[siegi_b]

Contango who went to Grand Prix in Dressage and quite successfully, had sickle hocks and passed them on. That didn’t keep many people from breeding to him (myself included).

But then again, there are sickle hocks and then there are sickle hocks…

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;5356435]
Contango who went to Grand Prix in Dressage and quite successfully, had sickle hocks and passed them on. That didn’t keep many people from breeding to him (myself included).

But then again, there are sickle hocks and then there are sickle hocks… :)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think that is important to note. Severe conformation problems versus moderate ones - huge difference! A horse whose hocks are way out behind him (think Tenessee Walker type) is much different then a horse whose hocks are slightly behind him, but has a well placed loin, a good back, and (most importantly) a willing mind and a good rider.

A couple of years ago, at a judging workshop, an instructor pointed out a horse standing with sickle hocks - she thought much too out behind to ever handle collection. It was a young stallion who then went in and did an exemplary 3rd level test - scored in the 70s. So much for that conformational flaw;) Granted 3rd level isn’t as collected as GP, but… I think he’s going to be doing PSG this year - still sound, still showing, still a bit sickle hocked. The inspectors were very happy to approve him, by the way…

[password]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;5356318]
Echo the previous post that noted that Jazz has sickle hocks and tends to pass them on. He is the number 1 dressage sire in the world by a big margin and his stock tend to stay sound.

On a more personal level my mare had slight sickle hocks. She jumped 1m70 and competed to PSG and retired sound at 16. She only retired then because I wanted to have babies from her. She is now 18, carrying her second foal and still sound.

The more I learn about performance horses and soundness issues the more I think that perfect conformation is nowhere near as important as we think it is. I now put far more weight on the soundness record of the sire and dam and any siblings than I do on small variations from ideal conformation. Most lamenesses are due to soft tissue injury. If a horse has poor quality soft tissues the best conformation in the world is not going to stop that tissue from breaking down under stress. The opposite is also true: if a horse has top quality soft tissues but appaling conformation the strain on the ligaments and tendons caused by the poor biomechanics may cause the soft tissues to break. But you can see dreadful conformation and avoid buying a horse who has it. Poor quality soft tissues are invisible and it takes a lot of time and effort to unearth whether a particular line of horses break down at an early age or not.[/QUOTE]

This.

[Personal_Champ]

Not upper level, but my Pete had fairly severe sickle hocks. He raced til he was 9, and has been jumped to 4’6" and showing competitively at 3’ for 10 years. He is 19 this year.

He did require hock injections at 13 but the vets said it was common for horses with his race record and his hocks looked pretty decent. His hocks fused in his 17 year old year with no problems or loss of work.

[Rallycairn]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;5356318]

The more I learn about performance horses and soundness issues the more I think that perfect conformation is nowhere near as important as we think it is. I now put far more weight on the soundness record of the sire and dam and any siblings than I do on small variations from ideal conformation. .[/QUOTE]

Very interesting observation – much food for thought!

[Donella]

But then again, there are sickle hocks and then there are sickle hocks

Yes, forsure.

Interesting about Jazz as well.

[honeychile]

I looked at a Jazz granddaughter (Olivi) a couple months ago that was mildly sickle hocked. Enough to notice but nothing drastic. I passed on her (worried about hock issues), but good to know that this is a common Jazz trait. Makes me rethink…

[enavantstud]

Hilda Gurney’s sporthorse conformation critiques

Hilda likes a little sickle hock on her horses. Keen was sickle hocked. It allows the horse to articulate and get the hind leg under. I have a young horse that is slightly sickle hocked and he has a super hind leg.

[Donella]

Hilda likes a little sickle hock on her horses. Keen was sickle hocked. It allows the horse to articulate and get the hind leg under. I have a young horse that is slightly sickle hocked and he has a super hind leg

I think that is a mistruth. Sickle hocks do not allow the horse to get under itself as nothing is placed farther forward except the cannon bone. The hock placement has nothing to do with the cannon bone below it…but the cannon bone (and lower structures) IS more under the horse because the angle between the hock and cannon is smaller than normal. All that creates is less support of the hock and hind end in general as the pillar supporting them is not perpendicular to the ground.

from Hilary Clayton:

The lengths and angulations of the
bones of the pelvis, femur, and tibia
determine the location of the hock joint
beneath the horse’s body and its cycle
of movement as he travels. A more sloping
pelvis places the hip joint a little
lower and farther forward than does
a flatter pelvis. The femur slopes forward
from the hip joint: The greater
the length and the more forward the
angulation of the femur, the farther
forward it places the stifle and hock
beneath the body. Conversely, a femur
that is short or that has a more vertical
angulation places the stifle and hock
farther back, relative to the hip joint.
The tibia slopes backward from the stifle
joint: Greater length or a more
backward angulation places the hock
farther out behind the horse. The ideal
sport horse has a long, forward-sloping
femur and a tibia that is neither excessively
long nor sloping.

And from the same article re Holmstrom (who she cites) :

In his studies of the conformation
and gaits of Swedish Warmbloods, veterinary
researcher Dr. Mikael Holmström
found an average hock angle of
156 degrees in the general population,
with elite dressage and jumping horses
having larger angles—around 159 degrees.
At the McPhail Equine Performance
Center, we have measured
standing hock angles in warmbloods,
Andalusians, Thoroughbreds, Standardbreds,
and Arabians. We found that the
majority of horses fall within the range
of 155 to 165 degrees but that some
are 10 degrees higher or lower than
these values.

It is suggested that the larger hock angles among the elite horses may be because hocks with small angles are more prone to injury, and because small hock angles may negatively influence the ability to attain the degree of collection necessary for good performance in advanced classes.

According to Horseowner’s Guide to Lameness by Ted S. Stashak, DVM:

Excessive angulation of the hock joints (sickle hock).  When viewed from the side, the angle of the hock joint is decreased so that the horse is standing under from the hock down.  The [B]plantar aspect of the hock is under a great stress, especially the plantar ligament.[/B]  A horse so affected is predisposed to sprain and strain of soft tissue support structures on the plantar hock region.  This is called "curby conformation". 

Does anyone havea conformation photo of Jazz??

[Dutch]

Jazz:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l98/mhaley1010/weblinks/0000004527.jpg

[D_BaldStockings]

There is a big difference between ‘hocks out behind’ and ‘sickle hocks’ that people seem to lump into one negative view.

True sickle hocks literally appear broken angled -from point of hock down to top of cannon is one plane, while on down the cannon to the fetlock is another plane. Very weak construction and prone to damage and breakdown.

Horses can have ‘hocks out behind’ due to a short pelvis, short vertical femur, long gaskin, or long cannon (or combination of the above) and still have wonderful strong hocks.

Note that if you cover up the cannon with your hand or a bit of paper, then predict where the cannon should be; remove your hand and you should see whether there is a sickle hock or not.

There is a rather good discussion here
http://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/RearEnds/RearEndConformationB.html