Now I remember why I don’t post here!! Those that can do…those that can’t post!!! Won’t hear from me again.
LOL! Those who can’t sit, post?
Uhhhh, what? 
Uhhhh, what?
I missed that too.
As for Jazz, wow, those are some hocks. Does he consistantly throw them to that severity? Do most of his top offspring competing have those same hocks? Very curious that he was licensed (good thing he was, but it IS surprising if he was licensed as a young, unproven stallion with such an obvious conformation fault).
At the end of the day the horse is a sum of his parts and how they work together…ie some horses just use themselves better than others and of course, I think footing, shoeing ect all have a very large impact on wether or not a horse stays sound. Those also function significantly as support for the joints. I am sure Jazz had the best of the above.
His hocks don’t appear severe to me.
Would like to see an outline imposed over his hocks to show where the angle should be.
I can’t find a conformation picture of Jazz - anyone have one?
Jazz’s hocks are not something that would put me off using him. I don’t think they are that bad to be honest. But the reason they don’t worry me is because they have proved their functionality. He went to GP, his sire went to GP and many of Jazz’s offspring have gone to GP. He’s the top ranked dressage stallion in the world. He passes on his ability but even more importantly he passes on soundness and comes from a family of soundness. For me that is far more important than the angulation of his hocks.
I’m definitely a function over form person. If a horse has conformation that does not match my textbook ideals but who has trained and competed to the highest levels and stayed sound doing it and who also has offspring who have trained and competed at the highest levels and stayed sound then I mentally adjust my idea of acceptable conformation to include the horse who falls outside my previous limits but who has proven that how he is put together works and works well.
There is more and more data appearing that top showjumpers frequently have funky conformation. Or to be more politically correct that they have low scores on type and legs and maybe neckset and… In jumping all that matters is that the horse gets over the fence. And stays sound.
I truly believe that conformation is only able to tell us a fraction of the information we want to know regarding the long term athletic and soundness prospects of a horse. It is always a good idea to do some homework on the blood relations of the horse or stallion you are looking at and finding out their competition record. As an abstract illustration why did the dam of a stallion stop competing aged 6? Was it a choice because she was clearly so good she needed to be reproducing herself? Or was it because she went lame? This sort of information is massively difficult to unearth but IMHO absolutely essential to know.
@25 - see the link on previous page at comment 18.
Those who post to make sure that others know they are not posting because posters can’t do and they are a doer and they are a doer but they had to post about not posting so that non-doing posters would understand that they are doers even whilst they are posting … eh, my head hurts now.
Jazz’s hocks don’t look bad because they are standing him so his legs are back and that makes the cannon look more perpendicular than they really are (you can’t accurately judge leg angles when the hind legs are camped out). They are not the worst I have ever seen, but they certainly aren’t minor either.
I have mixed feelings about breeding. Yes, HE got to GP with those hocks but what if you breed a mare who doesn’t use her body the same way he does and you get those hocks but with a body that can’t compensate as well? He did well despite his hocks, not because of them.
I am not really a stickler for textbook conformation either (my FEI horse has really crooked front legs) but most experts agree that there is a significantly increased chance of breakdown with a sickle hock (it just makes SENSE). It’s not like DOn Frederico’s paddling (which has nothing to do with soundness). The risk is most certainly there. You could breed to him and luck out and get a horse that can cope or you could breed to him and get a horse that can’t and those hocks could predestine him to a life of unsoundness. I don’t think something that predisposes a horse to breakdown is something to be taken lightly.
At the same time, I shouldn’t have said I would never buy a horse with sickle hocks nor that I wouldn’t breed one. I had a mare with SLIGHT sickle hocks and bred her but it was so mild I am sure alot of people would never have noticed it. I would also buy a sickle hocked horse if it were doing the upper level work and vetted reasonable. Obviously that particular horse could cope. But I personally would never breed a horse that has a conformation flaw that seriously predisposes it to premature breakdown. But thats just me.
In the picture in post #18, it’s harder to look at the RH since it’s stuck out behind him.
If you look at the LH, the point of the hock is not quite under the point of the butt - close, but it’s pulled forward a bit. This alone makes the leg look more s-h than it is. But if you drop a pretty straight line down from where you would see the point of the hock, if you could see it, that’s where the cannon bone should be.
If the point of the hock were not so close to being under the point of the butt, a vertical line would not be correct, just fyi.
There’s one major flaw in your conclusion there Donella. You’re assuming that perceived conformation flaws lead to decreased soundness. I’d say that the data coming in from showjumping horses in particular strongly suggest that soundness and conformation are not as closely linked as people think they are.
I am not coming up with this myself. Read the data. Most successful upper level sport horses have larger rather than smaller hock angles (to me that means something…to you it may not). I think most vets and many professionals agree that sickle hocks generally makes the hock weaker (depending on the extent of the sickle). In a sport such as dressage, where the weight bearing on the hind end is increased, it only makes sense that a horse with weaker hocks is more prone to breakdown. I won’t purposefully breed a dressage prospect with a weak hind end.
Obviously, like with anything, there are exceptions and they aren’t all going to break down and some will do just fine with a myriad of abnormalities.
You can breed for it all you want. I am simply explaining why I wouldn’t.
This may be a bit off topic - but whenever I think about hock angles I can’t help but think of the Paints and Quarter Horses that make up the reining world.
Sickle hocks are so prevalent among both breeds that I darn near consider it a breed trait.
It is shocking to me how well these horses hold up to the discipline of reining. The amount of stress put on the hocks is just unbelievable.
http://www.reinersworld.com/stallions/SomeKindaShine.jpg
http://www.precisionhorsetraining.com/Peppy-Dan500.jpg
http://static.equine.com/listing_images/5/8/1/581648_158984_HD.jpg
It certainly is enough to make me question traditional beliefs about what makes a sound conformation.
I can barely stand to watch reining because of the stress on the joints. I have no idea how long those horses hold up. Do they compete into their teens?
That I’m really not sure. This guy here is the #1 sire of Reining Horses in the world. He’s a 1993 foal and showed from 1996 through 2002.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/colonels+smoking+gun
I don’t suppose there is any way to know if he retired due to soundness issues - or if he retired because of the allure of an $8500 stud fee!
Still, 6 years worth of a hard-core show career isn’t too shabby.
The combination of the joint stress AND the fact that they begin training/showing at such a young age is mindboggling.
Donella - I think you’re overstating the severity of Jazz’ sickle hocks a bit… 
In addition, it’s very hard to argue with success in his case, and yes, he tends to pass on his sickle hocks. :yes:
So sure, you can say that you would never breed to somebody like that but it would be like cutting your nose off despite your face.
With that said, I have two (:eek:) mares in foal to Jazz for 2011 and am not worried about the hock issue one bit!
This may be a bit off topic - but whenever I think about hock angles I can’t help but think of the Paints and Quarter Horses that make up the reining world
My mom is involved in the sport and I agree, alot of the best reiners have sickle hocks. I don’t think it negatively affects their performance because it is SO prevelant amoung the really good ones but then long term soundness is not paramount in this sport either.
[B]Donella - I think you’re overstating the severity of Jazz’ sickle hocks a bit… In addition, it’s very hard to argue with success in his case, and yes, he tends to pass on his sickle hocks.
So sure, you can say that you would never breed to somebody like that but it would be like cutting your nose off despite your face[/B]
Look, I don’t expect everyone to be as concerned about it as I am and I realize that lots of people love Jazz (rightfully so). I won’t argue with his success or that of his offspring though I do think there are other great stallions out there so I don’t really believe I am losing out by not breeding to him.
I did try to check the data…
Most appeared to be a re-hash (some literally lifted from) Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners by M Horace Hayes -that would be published 1877 so the info is ‘traditional’ for certain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=c0oDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA116&dq=hock+spavin&hl=en&ei=ADI2TYLEO4HEsAPN2_DqAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hock%20spavin&f=false
I won’t go into all the other links found (only looked at the DVMs and scientific studies and some of the breed conclusions) but there actually appears to be a genetic ‘higher incidence’ found of horses that did have hock problems having offspring with poor hocks (meaning functionally likely to go lame or become damaged, regardless of appearance) than horses that did not.
So IF I could research the whole family, I would be willing to use less than perfect hocks in breeding individuals who were sound life performers.
‘Small joints and tied below the hock’, ‘Cowhocked’ and ‘Straight Hocks’ were (and are) also thought to be conformation that predisposes to damage/lameness due to loading stress, so I’m not sure where ‘perfect’ (other than perfect performance and lifelong soundness) can be applied to one joint of a horse singled out of the entire balance and way of going.
For it it is a matter of how much, what consequences in this family, and how would I breed to ‘adjust’ the hock angle in the direction I think might be ‘safer’.
That doesn’t mean I would be right, I might be breeding away from something I hadn’t considered, like elasticity or stride length or…?
Every horse can be picked apart for faults.
Function faults are important.
‘Looks’ faults less so.
Unless you are selling; when looks seem to count against a horse more than is reasonable!
D Baldstockings I love your final conclusion but can’t resist giving you a gentle nudge for quoting from a book that is close to 140 years old! Science is changing all the time. As our knowledge develops so does our belief of what the correct answer is to a question. I often tell trainees that remembering the answer is easy, it is remembering which of the eight answers you know is currently considered correct!
So dear old Horace Hayes book is so outdated that much of the information in it is no longer right. Research into soundness and conformation has moved on from opinion which is what the majority of his book is based on, to scientific studies, some of which have been quoted in this thread. The big problem with vet research is that it receives very little funding so many studies are underpowered (they don’t have enough horses in them for any statistically sound conclusion to be drawn from the results).
My position is that predicting future soundness from simply looking at the skeletal angles of the horse which is essentially what assessing conformation is, is a massively crude and inaccurate technique. It will allow you to spot horses who have such poor angles that the strains on their limbs will exceed breaking point but I don’t believe it let’s you get any further than that. What I really want to know is where the tendons and ligaments attach, what is the cross sectional area of the tendons and ligaments, what is the % of elastin in them. How strongly are they attached to the bone. And a million other variables. Since I cannot know any of those things I go to a poor second best, indirect source of those figures which is the soundness record of the stallion in question and his ancestors and progeny. If he is sound and they tend to be sound I can feel a little more confident that the chances of a horse by that stallion staying sound are better than average.
The leg is a column; it supports the weight of the horse.
If you bend the column you weaken it and reduce its load bearing capacity. You still have to support the weight of the horse. That means you must increase the weight bearing capacity of the column (somehow make it stronger or more robust) or accept the fact that the column is weaker and develop “work arounds.”
Selective breeding is one way to make the leg more robust. Exercise would be another. But at the end of the day the bent column is still weaker than a straight one.
Sickle hocks are very common in Big Lick Walkers, where the rear leg must reach deeply under the horse to accomplish the Big Lick gait. I’ve seen overstride in excess of 18."
A really straight leg will be strong, but maybe not very “resilient” and will not provide a smooth ride. This is why in a lot of gaited horses you’ll see a very slightly elongated and slightly bent rear leg. This is makes for a smoother ride. As long as the rider knows what they are about and keeps the horse in good riding condition this is not a problem and the horse can stay sound for many years.
Sadly, most Big Lick horses are done as saddle horses by the age of 6-8 years (for a variety of reasons, not just poor rear leg conformation).
Maybe a little bit of rear leg curvature might be OK in some disciplines.
G.
