I bred my mare to Jazz in '09. His sickle hocks were not a concern for me as my mare is very correct behind. She had a Premium GOV colt with super movement, born without sickle hocks. I have another dose of his frozen and will be repeating that cross in the future, hoping for a filly. Can’t wait to see your two Jazz foals Siegi.
Another piece of somewhat off-topic food for thought. Has anyone ever noticed that the fastest runners/best jumpers in the animal kingdom are ALL what would be considered sickle hocked in “horsey” terms?
Mountain Lion
http://www.staddonfamily.com/files/2009/03/mountain-lion.jpg
Ibex
http://0.tqn.com/d/judaism/1/0/E/S/ibex1.JPG
Bharal
http://www.biolib.cz/IMG/GAL/1915.jpg
Klipspringer
http://www.south-africa-tours-and-travel.com/images/klipspringer-augrabies.jpg
Deer
http://www.mschick.com/Pictures/Animals/Generic%20Deer.jpg
Cheetah
http://www.agarman.dial.pipex.com/bco/images/cheetah.jpg
Heck, look at the design of the common racing prosthetic:
http://cdn.explainthatstuff.com/prosthetic-racing-limbs.jpg
(The above prosthetic was actually inspired by the Cheetah leg.)
Isn’t this really just a matter of physics? Is it unreasonable to think that there may be some lessons to be learned by observing evolution at work?
But those animals aren’t asked to work on their hind ends more than their instincts require and they aren’t carrying weight 
that said, I do think there is a valid design to having a sickle hock when it comes to the “launch” of a jump or sprint.
[QUOTE=JB;5368903]
But those animals aren’t asked to work on their hind ends more than their instincts require and they aren’t carrying weight :)[/QUOTE]
But how do you know that a more “sickle hock” design would prevent a horse from doing those things?
Oh yeah, and how do you explain THIS???
http://www.lolepic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lion_rider_lol_epic.jpg
Fascinating.
I noticed that my male Dobie is sickle hocked and he runs like a greyhound.
[QUOTE=Oakstable;5368924]
Fascinating.
I noticed that my male Dobie is sickle hocked and he runs like a greyhound.[/QUOTE]
Interestingly enough - this whole train of thought popped into my head initially after watching my cat jump from a standstill 5’ straight up onto the back of my recliner.
I think I have too much time on my hands…
Stolensilver, the nudge weas great, thanks. I had hoped there was more advancement from the late 19th century, yet sometimes that just isn’t the case.
I was deliberately referring to that book, that century, because I went to modern post 1995-2010 vet sites and got the EXACT wording from that early book. Parroting is not uncommon and it can go on indefinitely, sad to say.
Oh, and I do have great respect for Capt. H. Hayes as he was incredibly well traveled and knowledgable in the heyday of horses just prior to hte automotive age, but that is another story.
So I’m not certain how much ‘real’ data is actually out there; horses being the least researched of farm animals in veterinary medicine, and having so much complicating factors of fitness, conditioning and training expectations that skew soundness predictability.
There are correlations by breed and families withiin breeds having higher incidences. Beyond that? I haven’t found much -am greatly willing to look at any data others have found, -please post links,thanks!
Guilherme- One function of the horse leg is ‘weight bearing column’ and a good example of such a leg is an elephant leg. Yet smaller animals do not use such structure, as faster movement is essential to their survival.
For speed appropriate to size to horses, one looks at similar sized ungulates, like moose, sable antelope. For power and maneuverability (jumper, maybe?) one might take some pointers from animals like bighorn sheep, ibex, elk.
Show me the straight legs on those? I didn’t think so.
I was always taught the front legs were for weight bearing and needed to function similar to a pole vaulter launching the weight forward but with the added need for shock absorption reflected in the shoulder-upper arm-elbow angles and the fetlock-pastern relationshipangles and lengths. Meanwhile the hindquarters were the motor and forward-rearward reach that provided speed, power and lift (or sit for dressage) so within reason, angles that can bend and straighten provide bigger longer levers - more mechanical advantage. Up to a point, that point being the native bearing ability of the bones and tendons.
An old definition of sicle hocks is hocks that yes, are bent, but also can’t effectively straighten. That second part of the definition, and it is vital, has been lost over time.
Has anyone checked out the hock angulation on a deer. Doesn’t seem to hurt them any.
Dan
StolenSilver, I agree, there are lots of factors at play. Obviously, thats why some horses with sickle hocks can stay sound.
On the other hand, I don’t think sickle hocks are an issue for a horse in nature. Horses bear most of their weight on the front end. That is what they were designed to do. In dressage, and in other sports as well, we ask them to do the unnatural and to carry more weight behind (effectively on their hocks) for long periods of time. It isn’t natural and it IS stressful. So while there are all sorts of exceptions, I think the stronger the legs/joints are the better the horse can hold up to the unnatural stress we put on it.
Deer, dogs ect are not even comparable. We aren’t sitting on their backs and asking them to bear us and their own weight behind.
So would you compare to kangaroos?
(Just an animal that bears all the weight behind and none in front)
Larger 'roos have longer legs/lighter bodies in proportion when compared to smaller ones. Can’t tell if they are sickle hocked, though…
I will say that Zebra and wild ass species which definitely have to shift the weight to the rear to power that instant get-away to escape the big cats tend to favor a not so bent hock, whough not a posty straight one either.
Several seconds running from a big cat is probably comparable to several seconds ‘sitting’ in dressage posture at a piaffe.
Has anyone gone to the Lippizzan or Andalusian images -two breeds bred especially for the ‘sit’ Levade and Airs above the ground so all weight on the HQ.
Are they straight?
Thanks!
I want to back up Donella here. I am not a super stickler for conformation and the worst conformed horses can stay sound and be super athletes, but, in general, you do NOT want sickle hocks for dressage horses. (Jazz looks more out behind than sickle hocked.)
I was at a Mikael Holmstrom clinic and this was one of the things he pointed out for dressage horses. In fact, you want a horse that’s a little straight behind for dressage because they can piaffe/passage better. Hilda 100% agrees with this. I’ve seen her conformation clinics and talked to her about this. She always looks for a horse more straight behind. The theory is a horse who is straighter behind can carry and sit better. I have to say, if you saw my mare, she is a bit straight behind, and has a super talent for piaffe/passage. If you ever saw Anky’s Bonfire standing there, he was really straight behind, and he could sure piaffe/passage.
Speaking of other animal’s conformation, deer and cows can jump REALLY well. Cows can pop over a six foot fence. Do we want horses that look like cows? (OK, I did have a horse that kinda looked like a giant cow. He was 18.1 and standing there you would think he couldn’t walk without limping. He was a really nice mover and stayed very sound.)
I think that in summary you will find as many well-known dressage horses with a tendency toward sickle hocks as you will find them with straighter versions of said limb…
How does comparative cannon length affect hock angle as to soundness?
I have heard a proportionately shorter hind cannon is stronger (Low hock vs. high hock) or minimizes the stress forces, and a longer cannon enables greater speed/stride…but haven’t seen any real studies on it?
Just noting that Jazz appears to have a shorter hind cannon than some.
And have noticed the tendency to preferring longer legs (which often ends up being cannons) as a breeding goal lately.
Thanks,
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;5371301]
How does comparative cannon length affect hock angle as to soundness?
I have heard a proportionately shorter hind cannon is stronger (Low hock vs. high hock) or minimizes the stress forces, and a longer cannon enables greater speed/stride…but haven’t seen any real studies on it?
Just noting that Jazz appears to have a shorter hind cannon than some.
And have noticed the tendency to preferring longer legs (which often ends up being cannons) as a breeding goal lately.
Thanks,[/QUOTE]
I definitely believe there is a corrolation between a short cannon/low hock and the ability for a horse to step under itself and work through the back. I have no scientific proof of this - it is just something I have observed when seeing horses that have that type of conformation move.
That is also another common trait of reiners - and no one can deny the reiner’s ability to get it’s hind end under itself. In fact - reiner breeders use the phrase “low hocks” as a selling point in their ads.
In addition to Jazz - Gribaldi is another example of a very successful “low hocked” horse.
Lower hocks are good. Higher hocks = longer cannon bone = longer tendons/ligaments = more risk of injury. I don’t think there is any sporthorse sport, and that includes Western disciplines, which aim for high(er) hocks. Of course, one could be TOO low, but I can’t recall seeing that oddity LOL
A longer upper leg automatically means more reach of the lower portion. That’s physics at work 
Just how much more reach depends on the angle of the hock, stifle, pelvis, etc.
Jazz doesn’t look that horrible to me - the Dutch also rank the severity level, which is a nice tool to have when looking at best complimenting to a mare.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=192195564125677&set=a.182568565088377.48219.152903214721579 someone mentioned Spanish stallions - this is a picture I look at and it jumps out at me immediately.
I wish there was a better confo pic of Jazz, with his near hind leg stood up “properly”.
As it is, his stance makes his RH look camped out, and his LH look quite sickle-hocked. I think he IS s-h, as I don’t think the point of his hock is so far forward of the point of his butt to account for most of that angulation. But at the same time, I can’t imagine he’s more than minorly s-h, or the angle of his “camped out” RH would be much greater.
And yikes, that Andy is QUITE sickle-hocked! I didn’t think that was common in those breeds 
I would bet Jazz looks similiar to the andy stood up properly. You can tell from the other leg he is undoubtably sickle hocked (and again, I don’t think it’s minor).
I was reading a very good KWPN breeder’s website (Shooting Star Farm, I believe they post here) and found this (hopefully it’s ok that I quote it here) :
I jump up on my soapbox and say again that we have to maintain some of the Gelders blood in our horses if we want the KWPN horse to continue to be one of the top sport horses in the world. Modern type for the sake of type alone is going to get us in trouble. I’ll even venture to offer a specific example here: pasterns. Look at the pasterns on a number of popular KWPN stallions right now–especially the hind pasterns. They’re long and overly horizontal. Combine this with sickle hocks and the overly short hamstring we’re seeing again and again in the modern KWPN type, and we’re breeding for a hind leg construction that is not going to hold up to the pressures of upper level competition and training. That’s one of the most notable things in Debbie’s breeding program; her mares have correct hind legs, bordering on slightly straight. There are no long, sloping, hind pasterns in Debbie’s herd.
Of course, I say all this and am a flag-waving Jazz fan, sickle hocks to the extreme and produces sickle hocks–a flag-waving UB-40 fan, short hamstring and produces short hamstrings…but my mares all have Gelders blood within two or three generations. And, I’m also doing a lot of outcrossing to German stallions. Think in generations. We can’t be breeding bad hind leg to bad hind leg, regardless of how fancy the type and keuring movement are.
It’s pretty obvious this breeder knows his/her stuff just perusing their website. I think he is right on. And I know Siegi mentions that lots of horses in Europe have this trait but when I was in Germany I only noticed the odd horse with sickle hocks (and I do look). It definately isn’t prevelant in the German wb population. Alot more were straight behind if anything. So maybe it’s more of a Dutch trend?
The Andy is very angulated even with the point of his hock out behind the point of his butt. Jazz’s leg is actually pretty vertical in the cannon bone with the hock behind the butt.
Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that Andalusians are severely sickle hocked, here is another site with reference sires and champions -and a variety of hock angles, though more are correct than sickled.
http://www.tupperfarms.com/reference_horses.htm
I must say I always liked the hocks on Capitol I Holsteiner stallion for angles and the relationship to the cannon -nice and large and not tied in.
Unfortunately liking the look doesn’t exactly match or even often match great performance.
I’m also partial to long HQ and short backs, as seen on SacramentoXX, and HyperionXX but Gribaldi seems to do just fine with his shorter femur assembly.
Agree on having a negative reaction to low pastern angles especially behind; but haven’t seen it matched to sickle hocks, always seems to go with the no-angle straight variety in my experience.
