[QUOTE=matryoshka;3723401]
Honestly, I think Shadow sounds rougher than he really is. He puts a bald face on his methods.[/QUOTE]
Probably. But why let him off the hook so easily? 
[QUOTE=matryoshka;3723232]
Thanks for the advice. I had looked into this and went so far as to sit in some side saddles at a horse expo. Turns out I need to have my legs on the off side and need a 24" sidesaddle. And, Iād prefer to use it on a horse who isnāt a determined bucker. So, good idea but it was the wrong horse. :no: I had to rehome him last summer because the bucking turned really nasty and I finally realized I could get hurt. Now I donāt have a horse I want to jump, so Iāll stick to riding astride. I should still be able to use a stick for signalling. One doesnāt need a side saddle to do that. ;)[/QUOTE]
Ooops.
I wasnāt suggesting use of a sidesaddle, but rather using the same technique of substituting the crop for the leg. Sorry for the confusion. 
Hope things work out for you!
G.
[QUOTE=katarine;3721948]
I am just curious to see who trains their horse to side pass??
I do.
Again just curious who out there has a good sidepasser??
Me.
I wear spurs on Jake that are english style with plastic barrel type rollers. Neat tools that I use when I want to do precise work lateral work. I donāt need them on trails, checking the mail, being the mobile beer cartā¦heāll go anywhere I put him w/o spurs.
I donāt wear them on Chip. He has a nasty history and doesnāt need the mental grief. Weāll get there if I want to, so far, I donāt care .I do carry a dressage whip with him in place of spurs for refining lateral aids.
I also bake a mean apple pie, like to read Vanity Fair, and love love love my kitty cat we call Owlly. I figure so long as weāre sharing extraneous information that has nothing to do with the OPās original questions, Iād chime in with those tidbits.[/QUOTE]
All of our Tenn. Walkers are trained to do side-passes (one does it without spurs) ā¦from flatshod to our Padded gelding. Several of them do āflying lead changesā also. Eat your hear out A2ā¦you are always thinking that they ādoā nothing else, but ride with Big Stacksā¦God how I hate that word!!!,
[QUOTE=cordial;3724194]
All of our Tenn. Walkers are trained to do side-passes (one does it without spurs) ā¦from flatshod to our Padded gelding. Several of them do āflying lead changesā also. Eat your hear out A2ā¦you are always thinking that they ādoā nothing else, but ride with Big Stacksā¦God how I hate that word!!!,[/QUOTE]
Excuse me, I meant to say āeat your heart out A2!ā
Quote:
How about walking a 30 inch concrete walkway, no sides and 10 feet in the air over a rushing river. Will you cross it on the horse???
Why on earth would anyone want to do that?
Why donāt you post a video on Youtube of you and your horse and then others could see what you are talking about when you describe your training methods?
Why??? It was this summer. We had a record rainfall over night but the next morning was beautiful so I went someplace different to do a 12 -15 mile loop. About 2/3ās of the way through the loop I cross a bridge over a small river. Well with the record rains the river had cut a new path around the bridge and while the water had receeded a bit the new channel had cut a deep cut right before the concrete bridge leaving a 4 foot straight up wall of concrete. No way I was going to climb that.
I had options. Turn back and retrace my steps or cross the river in flood. I didnāt want to retrace my steps and looking at the river overflowing the banks didnāt seem much of an option either. The water in good times is to his chest. This was far deeper and far faster.
The next option was the dam itself. Only about 100 yards up the river from the bridge. It is a concrete dam about 30 inches wide and about 40 feet long and about 10-12 feet above the discharge side and since the dam was open the high side didnāt seem much higher at this point.
Now I know my horse and I looked at this walkway and thought I can do this.
I had other options, lead him or ride him. If I lead him he could panic and run me over or he could panic and swing his butt to the side and fall off the dame.
Or I could ride him, steady him with my voice and the reins and control his hindend with my legs since he readily obeys leg pressure.
I started on the dam, talking , steadying and remember I know my horse and he just stepped off onto the concrete, I kept his pace slow, controlled and he just walked across. No sweat.
He trusts me, I can steady him so he did it without breaking a sweat and we continued on the loop.
Yes it would have made a good picture but I was alone, no audience.
Sorry
I can easily post a link to me and Strider or me and Shadow but all I get is critcism for yelling at Shadow when he becomes a jerk
You want the link?? Just ask
coolā¦ I thought the only trainwreck threads were in the dressage forum!
Umā¦ hmm
I agree with whoever initially said who DOESN"T! It isnāt the movement (to whichā¦ well that video wasnāt side passing)
there are two ways to look at a side passā¦ the technical way of how the legs pass across each other as a result of proper positioning and a basic leg yield. And the other way is a simple moving away from the leg due to asking.
Shadow is simply referring to a leg yield.
And its crucial to riding, being able to control the horseās front and rear end, the bit is NOT for controlling thatā¦ its communitcation, your seat your eyes and your legs are used for control and asking where a horseās body body goes. In endurance many times this is over looked because we are constantly moving forward forward forward.
ā¦but the video was not really appropraite as its mostly running sideways not truly side passing I believe. A good cow horse will do that, and its leg yielding.
Iād also like to point out that I feel I have a good understanding of oringial old school arabs (I ride study and try to be as active in the breeding of Davenports) as well as my father is a history major/buff with concentrations of military/equine history.
I have NEVER heard of that. I would ask where and what that book isā¦
I have heard of harsh things for necessityās sake.
I have heard of BAD OLD Training (dressage is included in this) but just because its OLD doesnāt make it RIGHT.
I understand needing to resensitize a horse who is dead to the leg it does take a little extra assā¦ most people are too kissie poo. Iām not sure what the referance was to about the arab book, totally not pertinate or helpful to his argument.
Shadow has his own ways and methodsā¦ I have my thoughts on them but its his horse and he seems to be doing things that make him happy and the horse does not appear to be being abused.
The book information is in my desk at work and I am at a funeral Monday so Tuesday I will publish the name of the book and all the information I have. I signed it out of a university library a few times.
It has a section of spurring for the war horse along with pictures.
I am not advocating it just repeating something I read.
The video was just showing a really responsive horse, a great horse.I found Merlin fascinating.
Rio sidepasses crossing the legs since there is no forward motion and he moves sideways very freely.
Sidepassing is also the start of leads and eventually lead changes. I know I will get arguements on this too but I can bury a lead using sidepassing so the horse has no options but to take the lead I leave exposed.
Later with flying changes I use the lesson he learned with sidepassing to shift his hind end at the precise moment I choose and he lands on his other lead.
Lead changing comes from the hind end so if you can control the hind end it is a start for flying changes.
If you guys want to see a fantastic horse look at his link. Also look at the guys hands?? Where are the reins??? Tied around his waist??
Watch is legs?? Watch him bumping the horse constantly??
And heaven forbid he IS WEARING SPURS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU&feature=related
Yep I teach side pass as well. I hate hitting my knee on trees or gate posts when moving at speed on the competition trail.
I donāt wear spurs and might have put them on to teach but most likely will use a crop to teach them to move away from leg pressure.
Great also for zipping around horses safely on trail without breaking stride, changing leads, or manouvering in tight situations.
That and WHOA means WHOA no matter what the situation are the keys in my horses.
Guys look at this video of an expert putting on a clinic on how to break buckers??? Also notice he is wearing spurs and bumping the horse with them.
At the same time the poor thing has one leg strapped up.
I certainly would never do this or anything like it.
Again would you approve of this???
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz2GWsKDo_0&feature=related
I donāt wear spurs for a first few weeks because it encourages bucking and I never strap a leg up , never. And you call me creul???:)
No spurs, but no brains either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gclzgx2cT4g
again, no spurs but no brains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFicLmm6fVk
no spurs, no brains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQISNfeRzBM&feature=related
spoiled pony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehHGLfNvS8o&feature=related
[QUOTE=katarine;3726310]
spoiled pony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehHGLfNvS8o&feature=related[/QUOTE]
I,m glad you didnāt include this one as NO BRAINS.
The girl did just fine but these are the problems people ask me to correct and it does get corrected right quick.
This is me under Shadow. The lung line is to prevent him from running before i have a chance to settle him. I have been on him maybe 30 times and today I had enough and decided to get a little rough. I am NOT wearing spurs, only a big bit to set him down if and when he breaks into a running buck when the lung line comes off.
This is as rough as it ever gets.
http://norval.ezworld.org/
Flame away for my roughness.
not even interested sir, I donāt care to. You are desperately eager for āusā to give you the nod, thatās your issue, not mine. Iāve said it before but Iāll say it againā¦Iām glad you are happy with your work and your approach. You donāt get to tell āmeā Iām out to lunch, then beg me to love your ways. You donāt get to invite yourself into my world and demand I give a **** what you have to say
If you were any more inside out and assbackwards about whacking people over the head to believe in you, you HAVE to, aye aye aye letās just say youād never cut it in marketing, Norval.
Now I have to go. I have a spoiled colt out in my round pen whoās had a nice rest and is ready for his next lesson. Oh the horrors, someone other than YOU starting a colt! And not doing it your way! for shame for shame.
[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;3720586]
Okay, but none of us are taking our horses into war anymore. There is a very rare chance that I will ever have to choose between sacrificing my horse or sacrificing myself, and Iām a little confused as to what point you are trying to make.
I have a properly trained, fit horse. I can take him out on busy highways or in rough terrain, and never fear. He sidepasses. He does haunches in, and shoulders in. He turns on both the haunches and the forehand. He does lead changes. We are starting to consider canter pirouettes. Most important of all, he knows the āwhoaā and āstandā commands, and listens even when nervous about something.
I ride him in a snaffle and no spurs. He is not afraid of me. Yet he behaves. Fear and pain are not necessary for a well-trained horse.[/QUOTE]
Mine is steady, too, been in some really sticky situations and she hasnāt let me down yet.
Surprise!! None of her training was done with pain or fear.
I THINK Shadow just likes to poke the bear (us). He probably lays awake at night thinking how he can shock us tomorrow.
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3719570]
, I am repeating what I read in a very old old book on Arabian horses.
The arab horse was a WAR horse. His rider depended on him for his life. To loose a horse at times was to die and if death or killing a horse was a stake the horse was sacrificed and you would do the same to Sweets if your life was at stake.
Anyway after a horse was made, say 7 years old he was SPURRED.
A specialist rode the horse wearing knives on his spurs that cut the flanks and the horse was spurred in a professional manner to inflict certain cuts. Then the cuts were rubbed with either salt, gunpowder or a combination of both to inflict severe pain. Once the cuts healed that horse would run till he dropped or respond to the slightest touch, yes it was out of fear but in battle fear in a horse is not considered and the life of the rider is of utmost importance so hence the harsh lesson with the spur.
.[/QUOTE]
Do you by any chance have the name of the book that refers to this? This is the first I heard of this, so would like to read if it is an old textā¦
Merlin is fascinating to watch. However something you may wish to think on, this horse presents a very interesting point. I encourage you (Shadow) yes, Iām speaking of, to look at videos of the horse actually being trained. This is a highly schooled horse, with a lot of classical dressage training that took a fair amount of time to develop. And honestly, if you had some knowledge and theory in classical equitation you would readily recognize that.
Soā¦
I find it a tad ironic that the horse you are holding up as your āidealā responsive horse, is a horse with intensive long term schooling, not a 1 day speed test on how fast they can leg yieldā¦ Just thought Iād point that out.
yet at the same time you tell those of us who do train slower as out to lunch, and also inform us that youāve been riding since before we are alive, and therefore we are useless.
I think part of the issue here, is you think you are in a forum with a bunch of women who never get their hand dirty, and havenāt a clue other then sitting on their pretty pony. Obviously you donāt know many real horsewomen I am guessing.
Let me help you out a bit to dissolve you of that delusion:
I grew up riding cattle, I can shoe a horse, drive a team, use a bullwhip, and cuss with the best of them when it comes to it. I drive a tractor, a 4 x4, Iāve strung miles of barbed wire in my day, Iāve roped calves, and I 've branded them to. Iāve sat in a saddle 16 hours a day, in the rain/snow and sun and never bitched over it. Then I turned 18 and got to move out:)
I then learned to ride, all over again, from excellent and some of them -well know trainers & riders. dressage/jumping/xcountry.
Then I fell in love with endurance.
40 years later, guess what Iām still doing?
you got it: driving a tractor, a 4x4, stringing fence, hauling hay, breaking out water holes, cussing up a storm, and oh yeahā¦ training my horses.
You arenāt the only one who has experience and time:
Iām an old fart too. But I donāt spend my time working out how to put down everyone else.
And frankly, age has little to do with knowledge. Just as an fyi.
As someone once said.
A horseman doesnāt have to tell, the horse already knows.
[QUOTE=katarine;3726310]
No spurs, but no brains either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gclzgx2cT4g
again, no spurs but no brains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFicLmm6fVk
no spurs, no brains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQISNfeRzBM&feature=related
spoiled pony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehHGLfNvS8o&feature=related[/QUOTE]
:lol:Those were quite entertainingā¦no brains is right! First guy was kindaā cute :lol:ā¦sighā¦but no brains.
[QUOTE=tkhawk;3727276]
Do you by any chance have the name of the book that refers to this? This is the first I heard of this, so would like to read if it is an old textā¦[/QUOTE]
The Arabian horse WAS developed as a war horse. I commend to you either āConqueorsā by Dr. Deb Bennet or āWar Horseā by Lt. Col. Louis DiMarco. Both are available from Amazon.
As to āblade spursā Iāve never seen or read of them. I have seen many examples in museums of āpickā spurs. These were long spikes (as long as 8-12") with a sharp point. They were routinely worn by mounted warriors in Europe, Asia, and Latin America. I would think that they would easily draw blood.
A war horse must be very responsive, but not crazy. Many military horse cultures used only stallions, but geldings or mares were also used by a few. The Mongols, IIRC, favored geldings. Sadly, the modern Arabian seen in the U.S. is a pale shadow of his origin. Those that are of good stock are fequenly badly trained and poorly ridden. After youāve seen a couple of good ones well trained and well ridden youāll very quickly see the difference.
G.
I think spurs are a very useful tool used for refinement of movements. I just donāt have a need for them at this time because we are a long ways off from ārefiningā anything. Weāre still schooling just plain basic work, and I donāt NEED spurs for that. I grew up with classical type dressage trainers and you earned your spurs. We never used spurs on lazy lesson ponies. We used a whip and you were instructed to whack 'em right behind your leg if they ignore you, but the spurs were earned as you progressed in your training.
Sweets is pretty hot off the leg and you only need VERY small cues to communicate with her, so even though I ācouldā wear spurs but just not use them, thereās just never a need. Weāre not refining anything, and she has never even ONCE āignoredā my leg.
One of my friends rode her and said sheās a cadillac ride. And she is. Just a really really nice mare with nice gaits, great personality, and superb work ethic.
So overall, my opinion of spurs is for refinement of movements, not for making a horse go faster. But of course everyone has different opinions on it.
